"09-10-15: Onhwy61
Back on 8/31 I stated:
Hegel should proudly proclaim designed in Norway/made in China.
I'm glad you finally agree with me. Let peace reign.
Onhwy61 (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
I don't think anyone here would disagree with that one. As far as "finally" agreeing with you, I usually do agree with you when you're talking about audio equipment. |
Hegel avoids to write made in China for commercial reasons. The majority of high end audio buyers avoid equipment of Chinese origin for two reasons:
a. Lower prestige products compared to those produced in U.S., UK, Germany, France, Switzerland etc.
I'm wondering, if their amps were build in Germany, would they still insist to hide this info?
b. Considerable loss of value in the second hand market.
Their refusal to provide important information, shows lack of respect for their customers. |
"09-10-15: Sabai
Aolmrd1241,
Being up front should certainly be company policy when if comes to asking customers to pay $5000 or more for high end audio products."
And certainly any amount less than $5,000 also... |
Hegel is not alone covering origin of manufacturing. Look at the Ayon - the same story. |
Vez,
You stated, "Hegel avoids to write made in China for commercial reasons." This is clearly what is happening, IMO.
You also stated, "Their refusal to provide important information, shows lack of respect for their customers." I agree. I believe their attitude towards me in the case I cited earlier in this thread reinforces this fact. When problems arise with their products they appear to be selective when it comes to whom they will show respect to -- depending on the perceived commercial risks to their company. IMO, they are very short-sighted -- and foolish -- in this respect. After talking with Hegel a number of times I was astonished by their attitude. Frankly, it was hard to believe I was talking to a high end audio company. I have had contact with dozens of high end audio companies over the years and had never experienced such a self-protective attitude before.
My contact with Hegel left me wondering where their reputation comes from. As long as things go well with their products everything is fine. When things do not go so well you just entered their high end audio casino. You may win or you may lose. This is no way to run a high end audio company. Refusing to disclose where their products are made is also glaring proof -- and reinforces my belief -- that there is something very odd happening in their corporate culture that needs to be seriously reviewed, IMO.
Aolmrd1241,
You're right, of course, when you stated, "less than $5,000 also". |
Soniqmike,
In your OP you stated, "I have tried getting a clear-cut answer from dealers with no success." I find this very odd. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it sounds like they are standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Hegel. This is a lamentable indication of their lack of integrity. |
Hegel has gotten nothing but good reviews since they came out. I always assumed they were made in Norway. I find it funny that none of the audiophile magazines disclosed that they were made in China. I am not a conspiracy theorist but this sounds like one. |
I find it odd and very telling that no one from Hegel has bothered to chime in here. Many manufacturers participate on the forum, especially when problems of one kind or another are talked about regarding their products. I can think of a number of manufacturers who do not hesitate to join the discussions here. That Hegel will not even acknowledge this thread is truly lamentable, IMHO. |
"09-13-15: Sabai
I find it odd and very telling that no one from Hegel has bothered to chime in here. Many manufacturers participate on the forum, especially when problems of one kind or another are talked about regarding their products. I can think of a number of manufacturers who do not hesitate to join the discussions here. That Hegel will not even acknowledge this thread is truly lamentable, IMHO."
In all fairness to Hegel, very few people in China can speak any English. |
Enough already with Hegal. Since this thread started I have this uncanny craving for a Bagel,and I don't even like them! |
|
Zd542,
LOL. But the Norwegians I talked to at Hegel all spoke perfect English.
Yogiboy,
I could use one myself. I live in Asia and have developed a serious medical condition -- Bagel Deficiency Syndrome. |
Zd 452, I am sure the head honchos that run Hegel aren't Chinese. They are more likely Europeans that speak English. I think they were rather be in denial than chime in. |
09-12-15: Taters
Hegel has gotten nothing but good reviews since they came out. I always assumed they were made in Norway. I find it funny that none of the audiophile magazines disclosed that they were made in China. I am not a conspiracy theorist but this sounds like one. Is it possible manufacturer location is not a factor on SQ to the reviewers? Most reviewers and customers judge an AUDIO component with their ear and not stuck in the weeds with inconsequential noise. |
Can you Imagine if they made bagels in China and then passed them off like they were made in N.Y.C. Can you Imagine the outrage? Meanwhile Hegel make's expensive audio equipment in China and passes it off like they are made in Norway and the only place you can read about it is on Audiogon. None of the other audio sites are talking about this at all. I guess these manufacturers look at audiophiles as marks. ( otherwise suckers for the old school crowd) |
Knghifi,
This is not a matter of SQ. It is a matter of a company that is writing at the back of their equipment the location of their drawing desk and not the factory that makes their equipment. This is a very irresponsible way to do business.
The majority of Hegel owners don't know the real origin of their dearly paid equipment, and for me this is unacceptable.
The "omertà " by the audio reviewers, correctly makes us believe that something very wrong goes on behind the scene. |
Taters,as a matter of fact, the Norwegian salmon (LOX) that many enjoy with their bagels are processed in China! Go figure! |
ZD542 you wrote:
"In all fairness to Hegel, very few people in China can speak any English."
Agree, they don't speak English but you should know that most Chinese speak fluently...Norwegian instead! |
Yogiboy, are you kidding? If that is the case no more lox for me. I'll just stick with the cream cheese. |
"09-14-15: Knghifi
09-12-15: Taters
Hegel has gotten nothing but good reviews since they came out. I always assumed they were made in Norway. I find it funny that none of the audiophile magazines disclosed that they were made in China. I am not a conspiracy theorist but this sounds like one.
Is it possible manufacturer location is not a factor on SQ to the reviewers?
Most reviewers and customers judge an AUDIO component with their ear and not stuck in the weeds with inconsequential noise.
Knghifi (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
That's a load of crap. I don't want some audio reviewer selecting what information they allow me to have. Besides, I've seen countless reviews over the years where the reviewer was invited out to the factory. Why complain now? |
It's ironic that most of the Norwegian Hegel staff does not especially enjoy Chinese food and it is rarely, if ever, served at company functions, no matter where they are held, and no matter where the food was prepared. |
|
As I stated in a earlier post why the(respected) reviewers never mentioned Hegel was made in China? Maybe I'm living in an "Audio Utopia" but I always thought audio reviewers were on our side? |
Taters, stick with the cream cheese!
http://qz.com/234197/america-catches-some-of-the-worlds-best-salmon-but-eats-some-of-the-worst/ |
I used to work in a manufacturing company (not audio equipment). When we sent out new products for review, a bottle of wine comes with it or any other little perks that they ask for was given as a gift. The truth is big fish always eat the small fish (million dollar company vs reviewer). Welcome to capitalism. |
09-14-15: Zd542
"09-14-15: Knghifi
09-12-15: Taters
Hegel has gotten nothing but good reviews since they came out. I always assumed they were made in Norway. I find it funny that none of the audiophile magazines disclosed that they were made in China. I am not a conspiracy theorist but this sounds like one.
Is it possible manufacturer location is not a factor on SQ to the reviewers?
Most reviewers and customers judge an AUDIO component with their ear and not stuck in the weeds with inconsequential noise.
Knghifi (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
That's a load of crap. I don't want some audio reviewer selecting what information they allow me to have. Besides, I've seen countless reviews over the years where the reviewer was invited out to the factory. Why complain now? Another brilliant post by HTML CHALLENGED! Every review is a selection of information. What's all to some is empty to others. It's all in the eye of the beholder. For me, a review on an AUDIO component, SQ, how it sounds relative to components I'm familiar with, build quality, customer service ... is hell more important than where it was assembled. I understand some purchased decision is based on spartan Scandinavian aesthetics. Post purchase, don't like the SQ, they complaint if it had a Made in China tag, they would know in advance it's not the sound for them. Can't make this stuff up!!! |
Taters,
You stated, "I think they were rather be in denial than chime in." I think you're right.
You also stated, "I guess these manufacturers look at audiophiles as marks." Lamentably, I think this is true in many cases.
Zd542,
You stated, "I don't want some audio reviewer selecting what information they allow me to have." Neither do I.
Vez
You stated, "The majority of Hegel owners don't know the real origin of their dearly paid equipment, and for me this is unacceptable." This is also unacceptable to me.
You also stated, "The "omertà " by the audio reviewers, correctly makes us believe that something very wrong goes on behind the scene." Unfortunately, I think you're right about this.
Dayglow,
You stated, "... but I always thought audio reviewers were on our side?" With all the perks some reviewers receive, is there any question whose side they are on? |
"Agree, they don't speak English but you should know that most Chinese speak fluently...Norwegian instead!
Vez (Answers | This Thread)"
I don't speak Norwegian, so I'll have to take your word for it. |
Another brilliant post by HTML CHALLENGED!
Every review is a selection of information. What's all to some is empty to others. It's all in the eye of the beholder.
For me, a review on an AUDIO component, SQ, how it sounds relative to components I'm familiar with, build quality, customer service ... is hell more important than where it was assembled.
I understand some purchased decision is based on spartan Scandinavian aesthetics. Post purchase, don't like the SQ, they complaint if it had a Made in China tag, they would know in advance it's not the sound for them. Can't make this stuff up!!!
Knghifi (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
Knghifi,
I don't think anyone is complaining about made in China in this thread. We are more concern about the ethics used by these shady companies. Like hiding the fact where it is assembled. SQ isn't a question here either. |
S1nn3r, one of the most realistic posts I've seen on here. |
09-14-15: S1nn3r
I used to work in a manufacturing company (not audio equipment). When we sent out new products for review, a bottle of wine comes with it or any other little perks that they ask for was given as a gift. The truth is big fish always eat the small fish (million dollar company vs reviewer). Welcome to capitalism. THANK YOU! So what's your alternative? IMO, The problem is not capitalism but uneducated consumers. |
I subscribe to the UK magazine Hi Fi Choice. Their equipment reviews always list the origin. The review of the Hegel component lists origin as Norway. There are other components in the same issue listed as UK/China indicating a UK design and China manufactured. No such distinction made for Hegel. So, if in fact they manufacture in China, they are knowingly misleading customers and magazines alike. |
|
S1nn3r,
You stated, "I don't think anyone is complaining about made in China in this thread. We are more concern [sic] about the ethics used by these shady companies. Like hiding the fact where it is assembled."
Exactly. It is a question of ethics. For me this all comes down to respect for the customer. It should not be OK to keep important information from customers regarding the simple but important matter of where the product is made. This begs the question why Hegel would go to the trouble of creating this deception. |
There is dog eat dog for the poor ,crony for the rich and Social Democracy versions of capitalism .
Both are capitalism like Fiat and Bentley are both autos .
Folks in former are generally less educated in former than later.
|
THANK YOU! So what's your alternative?
IMO, The problem is not capitalism but uneducated consumers.
Knghifi (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
Knghifi,
I don't see an alternative in education where the rich goes to Harvard and middle class goes to community college. Like I've said the big fish always eats the smaller fish. Only the rich becomes richer. |
09-15-15: Schubert
There is dog eat dog for the poor ,crony for the rich and Social Democracy versions of capitalism .
Both are capitalism like Fiat and Bentley are both autos .
Folks in former are generally less educated in former than later.
Schubert (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
Schubert,
Very well said. |
"09-15-15: Schubert
There is dog eat dog for the poor ,crony for the rich and Social Democracy versions of capitalism ."
Schubert, with you the glass is always half empty. Maybe it is a dog eat dog world over here under capitalism. But how would you like to be in communist China where its a people eat dog world? |
Forget China--it's an eco-disaster full of slave labor. You worry about job loss in America--then buy American audio. Get a pair of Audio Research tube amps--they are heirloom quality. Get a pair of Magnepans, the best speaker bargain in audio is made right here in America--no American company operating out of China can beat THAT. Sure, I have many products in my house made in Asia, but there are some great product lines made right here. Oh, I guess my tubes come from Russia.... |
I have owned a Hegel product- H4A. In fact I was one of the first in the USA. I bought it from a Consonance dealer. I was going to buy the H30, but the price even with my 20% discount was too steep. Am I a little surprised Hegel is made in China? Yes, and a little sad. But, they are still getting rave reviews, just not from me. |
It may be worth considering that, even if one is a rich audiophile, long-term personal and societal interests might be better served by attending a more modest school instead of say,Harvard, and the money saved on tuition could be better spent on purchasing audio equipment that meets a rigorous "home-grown" standard of acceptability. Rather than acquire electronics of questionable origin, the safe, and yes, patriotic route would be to purchase gear which is unquestionably made in the U.S.A.
As I consider the points raised in this thread, I can't help but think of the work of the French sociologist, Emile Durkheim.
Much of Durkheim's work was concerned with how societies could maintain their integrity and coherence in modernity; this in an era in which traditional social and religious ties are no longer assumed, and in which new social institutions have come into being. One can only wonder what Durkheim might have thought of goods made in China and sold elsewhere without obvious reference to the country of origin. |
Talk2me,
You stated, "But, they are still getting rave reviews, just not from me." Lots of companies get so-called "rave" reviews. But since a lot of the review industry is corrupt I believe we should read any "rave" advisedly. |
I don't see an alternative in education where the rich goes to Harvard and middle class goes to community college. Like I've said the big fish always eats the smaller fish. Only the rich becomes richer.
S1nn3r (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread) and the problem is ... Of course people with more resources have more flexibility and options. Their wealth grows expondentially and it's true, rich gets richer. With education and hard work, capitalism offers the best opportunities to improve ones social status. The alternative is a nanny state where everybody loses with no hope. No growth, no innovations and permanent high unemployment and recession. If money is important to you, stop feeling sorry for yourself and take action. If you can't make in the good old USA, you can't make it anywhere. There are reasons people are risking their lives trying to enter US. |
|
If you really want to see the best alternative to the present economic system read G.K. Chesterton works on how
the ancient and true economic smallest unit is the family not the individual. |
http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-financial-building-project-collapsed-2015-7 |
Knghifi,
Are you saying there is nothing between capitalism and the nanny state? I can think of a lot of countries that combine both and do so successfully -- and that include hope, growth, innovation, and much more. |
But since a lot of the review industry is corrupt I believe we should read any "rave" advisedly.
Sabai (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread) Like I said in another post, this is a problem with uneducated consumers and not capitalism. You can't help if someone based their purchase decision on ONE rave review and purchase remorse if they don't like the product. Nobody wants to take responsibility for their actions but always blame someone else. Personally I want different point of views and the freedom to choose ones that fits my needs. |
What Hegel does is what most companies do: keep your headquarters in your native country and build, pollute, and use slave labor elsewhere (if that is, indeed, what they're doing). Make alliances with any third world crony criminal leaders that you can to get the biggest profits possible and wrap your product in the flag of your choice.
That's why Nike Air Jordans are made by the Khmer Rouge (arguably one of the worst regimes ever).
Country of origin only matters to the dancing on the head of the pin in this thread. All the laughing and spending is being done elsewhere.
All the best,
Nonoise |
and the problem is ...
Of course people with more resources have more flexibility and options. Their wealth grows expondentially and it's true, rich gets richer.
With education and hard work, capitalism offers the best opportunities to improve ones social status. The alternative is a nanny state where everybody loses with no hope. No growth, no innovations and permanent high unemployment and recession.
If money is important to you, stop feeling sorry for yourself and take action. If you can't make in the good old USA, you can't make it anywhere. There are reasons people are risking their lives trying to enter US.
Knghifi (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
Knghifi,
Did I mention that there is a problem? Did I say money is too important?What makes you think I'm feeling sorry for myself. All I'm saying is that's the reality of life. So stop assuming you know it all.
Although I agree with you on the capitalism offers more opportunity but truthfully not through hard work and education alone will get you there. You need a solid connection. That's where the rich gets richer comes in.
You go attacking people who you disagree on here just because you can't accept the fact that your proudly own Hegel isn't a 100% great company after all. All those mention there is always two sides of the story, no company is 100% in customer service yet you believe Hegel is blah blah...please stop.
Either you're in denial or refuse to understand it just because your Hegel is staring back at you in your room. |
09-16-15: Sabai
Talk2me,
You stated, "But, they are still getting rave reviews, just not from me." Lots of companies get so-called "rave" reviews. But since a lot of the review industry is corrupt I believe we should read any "rave" advisedly.
Sabai (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
+1 |
"As I consider the points raised in this thread, I can't help but think of the work of the French sociologist, Emile Durkheim."
I'm not saying this to be mean, but I think he was a fraud. Using his theories, you can pretty much make up whatever you want. Start with the solution you desire, then reverse engineer the "facts" to prove your solution. His hypothetico deductive model has more than a few holes in it. Just the name sounds like a practical joke. |
Did I mention that there is a problem? Did I say money is too important?What makes you think I'm feeling sorry for myself. All I'm saying is that's the reality of life. So stop assuming you know it all. How is my interpretation to your post make me know it all? You go attacking people who you disagree on here just because you can't accept the fact that your proudly own Hegel isn't a 100% great company after all. All those mention there is always two sides of the story, no company is 100% in customer service yet you believe Hegel is blah blah...please stop.
Either you're in denial or refuse to understand it just because your Hegel is staring back at you in your room. If want it stop, STOP posting??? This is a forum for debates and not monologues. |
Zd542. With respect, I think your understanding of Durkheim falls extremely short. He did not "make up whatever." He did not "start with the solution you desire."
Furthermore, had Durkheim written nothing but The Elementary Forms, his place in the history of sociological thought would have been secured. The two major themes of the work, and more than a dozen provocative hypotheses have stimulated the interest and excitement of several generations of sociologists irrespective of theoretical "school" or field of specialization.
Durkheim was hardly a fraud, good sir. Rather, I submit he was a pioneer with a brilliant mind and intellect.
Most of what you refer to as the "hypothetico deductive model" has to do with suicide. A topic that is completely distasteful and unsuitable for this thread. It has no business here.
My point in mentioning Durkheim is the division of labor which clearly applies to Hegel components being manufactured in China. |
