Don't forget ARC, Ayre, Boulder and many others. |
If you think made in China is bad, try made in Norway. Norway is not known for their manufacturing. |
The Chinese re-named one of their cities to USA so they could put made in the USA on their products. |
Zd542,
That's a good one hahahaha (making use of the loop hole) |
Many here are totally missing the point. I have no reason to think Hegel is not excellent. And for all I know some world class products come out of China.
The point is that when your are purchasing a high-end product of anything, be it audio, watches, cars or wine, part of the price, above excellent performance, goes to prestige, exclusivity, and refinement.
Do people by a mechanical kilobuck Rolex for precision? A $60.00 Timex quartz is actually way more precise ! (No kidding).
I don't agree with the way Hegel puts a very visible NORWAY identification on the back of their units. Proof is in the pudding here that even a small sampling in this thread feel misled.
There would be nothing wrong with being upfront with your customers in labelling like " Designed in Norway, built in the PRC" (the polite way to prevent people from actually read and say the word China).
By the way, Kentucky Fried Chicken went to KFC to prevent folks from getting stuck on the word "fried".
Back to Hegel, if they went from "Norway" to designed in, made in....it would be much better, but it would cost them money as a made in China label just does not carry the prestige to command the kind of money the High-end thrives on.
I like the BMW example. And by the same token, would a Rolex command the same kind of money if it was designed Europe but made in China, and even if it was more precise than the original? No way.
High-end audio is no longer just about sound, it is about exclusivity and pride of ownership, and this is where the Ayon's and Hegel's are just too expensive for what they offer, in my humble opinion. |
Sonicbeauty,
You stated, "Hegel's are just too expensive for what they offer". I fully agree. They want to benefit from the Made in Norway cachet without being made in Norway. |
Knghifi-My point is IF Opera Audio(Consonance)is making the Hegel gear they can build very good sounding products. Good for Opera Audio. So what's your point? The problem is they(Hegel) are over priced when considering other competing Chinese made gear. Then buy the other competing Chinese made gear? The deception comes from the spartan Scandinavian aesthetics which is in contrast to the over the top "goofy" appearance of many Chinese made audio products. This could easily sway the buyer to assume it's made in Norway(I was fooled). If they would just slap a "MADE IN CHINA" label on the gear this thread would cease to exist and we could clearly judge Hegel for what they are! I'm confuse. So you based your Hegel purchase on the spartan Scandinavian aesthetics? So anything with a "MADE IN CHINA" label is automatically junk? Next time try AUDITION/LISTEN before purchase. I prefer/bought H30 over Bryston 28sst2 and Pass XA160.5. The free market will have the ultimate say whether Hegel is over priced. I know many many satisfy Hegel owners. I still don't understand the deception issue. When I buy my Mercedes, I have a certain level of expectations. It never crossed my mind to ask the dealer if it was built in Alabama, Germany, Poland, Mexico, Iran ... I could care less. I know wherever it was built or whatever label, it has the same level of quality. Same with Porsche, Hegel, TAD ... I think my TAD Evolution Ones were assembled in China but not important to me. I love the SQ and build quality. I also have a VAC SigMKIIa pre and ARC Ref250 that were built with by good old Americanas and a "MADE IN THE USA" doggie tag LOL!!! and the H30 has similar quality. BTW, I've own many many high power SS amps and H30 is the 1st one that doesn't have a transformer hum or HF hiss coming through the tweeter. |
"High-end audio is no longer just about sound, it is about exclusivity and pride of ownership, and this is where the Ayon's and Hegel's are just too expensive for what they offer, in my humble opinion.
Sonicbeauty (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Not for me it isn't. I really don't care about exclusivity, and pride of ownership isn't a term that applies to high end only. Many people are proud to own a modest system that they enjoy very much. |
One of the stigmas about "made in China" is whether the business in China that assembles the unit actually in-fact installs the quality parts designated by the original equipment designer, e.g. the Chinese baby formula manufacturer that substituted ingredients to lower costs... killing thousands of babies. |
Raks,
I agree. I recently had a Hegel amp that had a design flaw on the one hand -- and Hegel stonewalling me on the other hand. Who the heck knows what the story was on the production side? At least if they made it clear about Made in China instead of just stamping Norway on the back everyone could make a clear choice. This is where the deception lies. |
|
If one would do the r-e-s-e-a-r-c-h necessary to make a adequate buying decision based on needs and wants, then this whole post on 'made in China' would be moot.
If you bought a Chinese made product under the 'assumption' that it was made in [insert your country of origin here] then... shame on you.
Google is your friend people... Or at least a phone call to the manufacturer in question. |
Why the China bashing?
http://www.china-recalls.com/ |
Why all the China bashing?
http://www.china-recalls.com/ |
"08-30-15: Aolmrd1241
If one would do the r-e-s-e-a-r-c-h necessary to make a adequate buying decision based on needs and wants, then this whole post on 'made in China' would be moot.
If you bought a Chinese made product under the 'assumption' that it was made in [insert your country of origin here] then... shame on you.
Google is your friend people... Or at least a phone call to the manufacturer in question."
I agree. The OP should never have went and bought a Hegel product before he knew for sure what all the facts were. Now he's stuck with something he doesn't want, and is complaining like a little kid because of it. |
This is becoming one of the goofiest threads ever.
Deception? Only if the gear is stamped �Made In Norway,� which by all accounts it is not. And please, the bit about the case aesthetic being deceptive is just plain silly. Next up we'll be hearing that Chinese-made cars should have three or five wheels to distinguish them from others.
Back-handed jibes at quality and/or reliability from those who have never owned one, save one person who had some sort of bad experience with the brand? Concerns about �value� and talk about Rolexes, when their most expensive amplifiers are $10K so not exactly in the FM Acoustics/Soulution/D'Agostino bracket? C'mon, man�
Knghifi and Sabai have owned the gear and are entitled to speak as to quality. Everything else is speculation. I'm not a fan of all Chinese manufactured products myself, but I own enough of them to know that some are very reliable and very well built, while others have been junk. I can say the same about a lot of made in U.S.A. products I've purchased too.
Seems like a lot of xenophobia/subtle racism is popping up in this thread (and I'm lily-White so not my ax to grind, just an observation). If you want to make a trade imbalance/theft of trade secrets/toleration of unequal trading conditions/global economic policy argument against the prevalence of cheap Chinese manufactured goods dominating world markets that's one thing, but no one here has managed to demonstrate that there is the slightest thing wrong with this brand. And I say this with zero personal interest in the products and no intent of ever owning them. |
It is the right of the consumer to know the country of manufacture of the products to be purchased. It is one of the parameters that affects the decision to buy or not. Hegel knows this and decided to hide this information from the buyer when the same buyer knows very well the origin of the tomatoes and the t-shirts he buys.
This is a cheap trick and very bad marketing practice. |
One valuable lesson to be gained from this thread is to never feed your pets electronic components made in China- especially Hegel products. |
I've had products made in China. They're big in ISO9000 compliance, but you really need someone representing your company watching the product coming off the assembly line. Otherwise, substandard parts and quality problems can seap in with very little recourse if you've let inventories build up. But it's a per-customer/per-manufacturer issue, and too big to generalize. |
"Deception? Only if the gear is stamped �Made In Norway,� which by all accounts it is not. And please, the bit about the case aesthetic being deceptive is just plain silly. Next up we'll be hearing that Chinese-made cars should have three or five wheels to distinguish them from others."
Maybe you have a point. To be fair, I checked some equivalent US made audio components to see if we hide our country of origin labels. Sorry, but every US made component I checked was clearly marked Made in the USA, in bold print and in a conspicuous place. Its almost like they wanted you to see it.
Also, no need to put different wheels on cars, or any drastic measures. All you need to do is look at the VIN number. If the 1st letter is L, its made in China. You won't see too many Chinese cars over here, though. They don't hold up well on the boat ride over. Its just too much of a strain. They can't take that kind on punishment.
"Seems like a lot of xenophobia/subtle racism is popping up in this thread (and I'm lily-White so not my ax to grind, just an observation)."
How do we know that you're not the racist here? People that have to go around telling everyone that they're not racist, usually turn out to be racist. Even the "lily-white ones". Regardless, I can't be one. I had real Chinese food last night for dinner, made by real Chinese people. I even used chop sticks to eat it, so you better be careful who you call racist. |
Now now now Zd, I never claimed I wasn't racist. I only remarked that it wasn't my race being targeted here. And I also use chopsticks, so there. |
|
My initial point was not to suggest China-built or assembled gear is not good stuff, I owned many units in the past from Cayin, Shanling, and currentle am enjoying my Oppo 105 very much.
It is about 2 things mainly:
A) That there are are always folks for which country or manufacture is associated with high-end and branding, and with high prices. And this equal with and in some cases even more important than performance, and some won't admit this fact.
B) That Hegel, Ayon and maybe a few others realize this very well, and somehow conciously hide the "made in China" part. Why else would the name "Norway" (for Hegel) and "Austria" appear in large letters on the back of the units?
Companies such as Oppo (great product) are pretty smart in exploiting the country of design (USA) and the country of manufacture bring different. And when you open the box, at least you had the full infos before purchase.
So this is not about bashing countries, it is about being upfront with your customer. And yes, one can feel real pride of ownership with a product made in China. I remember my Shanling T-100, It was a beauty.
But you will never sell a Vuton handbag that would be made in China even if it could be better made, to a lady who can afford the real thing.
A certain part of the high-end audio market is exactly the same. |
I agree, Sabai. And Atma-Sphere is a sleeper company, quietly producing some of the best in the world without an enormous amount of fanfare and what have you. |
I could give a rats ass if you're a raciest or not. But brining it up for no other reason than to manipulate a conversion in some way is crossing a line.
"no one here has managed to demonstrate that there is the slightest thing wrong with this brand."
Even if that were true (and its not), implying people are racist, without knowing for certain if its true, shows you're lack of character. |
Gentlemen, if you audition a amp and you like the sound, build, and you like the price, and country of origin is not important, it's ok.
But if part of your creteria include other factors that are more intangibles, that's ok too.
Bryston, Classe and Simaudio (this particular brand I happen to dislike) all use their country of origin ( or North American origin) to win customers over. Same with some U.K brands - Rega, Naim.
I am not saying that China-made gear is not good, this would be a different debate.
But for audio, the truth is that there is an economic consequence of offering a product labeled made in china or not.
Sometimes the very nature of the product carries it's own place in customers minds.
Just one of many examples, have a look at let's say, a Fender Telecaster guitar.
You have a choice:
Made in USA $$$
Made in mexico $$
Made in China (ir Taiwan) $
Now, you may just find that the Chinese one suits you just fine, plays great and sounds fine, and that would be the best guitar for you and a great purchase.
BUT, there is absolute disclosure from Fender about where that Tele is made - and the price reflects this.
It's just a question of knowing what to buy, without the manufacturing trying to beat around the bush on important info. And for some product origin is important.
Look at Sonus Faber. I'm sure some folks still would prefer having the "handmade in Italy" metal tag on the back on their entry-line products. No longer the case.
Let's respect the folks for which this kind of thing is important. Live and let live! |
Oh really? You seem a little too sensitive about that, seems I've hit a sore spot despite my "lack of character."
I'm out, enjoy "you're" echo chamber. |
Vez,
I agree. Hegel should be making this clear. Instead they choose to hide the simple fact of where their products are made. |
Dave_72,
I agree. Atma-Sphere is a world-class amplifier maker -- and a sleeper. |
The phrase was "xenophobia/subtle racism". I would substitute bigotry for racism. A dictionary definition of xenophobia goes along the lines of fear or hatred of foreigners which qualifies as bigotry. And yes, I do think there is a stench of xenophobia in this thread.
If you're surprised that Hegel is not manufactured in Norway, then you didn't do your research. You have nobody to blame but yourself. That said, Hegel should proudly proclaim designed in Norway/made in China. Dozens of high end audio manufacturers have a similar provenance and are producing excellent quality products. Even in US built products the outsourcing of manufacturing is fairly common. The company may be headquartered in Utah or Colorado, but the component could actually be built by a company in California or Texas. Whether it's made in California or China, it's common sense that you have to thoroughly monitor the production process. |
08-30-15: Soniqmike
"Look at Sonus Faber. I'm sure some folks still would prefer having the "handmade in Italy" metal tag on the back on their entry-line products. No longer the case."
Just to be clear,only the Venere line of Sonus-faber speakers are being made in China. The new Chameleon line of entry level speakers are being produced in Italy. |
"08-30-15: P59teitel
Oh really? You seem a little too sensitive about that, seems I've hit a sore spot despite my "lack of character."
That makes absolutely no sense. Literally. If what you're trying to say, is that you hit a sore spot when you pull the race card to control a conversation, or win an argument that you would not otherwise be able to win, then yes.
Onhwy61
To be honest, your thread doesn't make sense either.
"08-31-15: Onhwy61
The phrase was "xenophobia/subtle racism". I would substitute bigotry for racism. A dictionary definition of xenophobia goes along the lines of fear or hatred of foreigners which qualifies as bigotry. And yes, I do think there is a stench of xenophobia in this thread."
If that's the case, then why say this?
"If you're surprised that Hegel is not manufactured in Norway, then you didn't do your research. You have nobody to blame but yourself. That said, Hegel should proudly proclaim designed in Norway/made in China."
You agree that they should have done a better job labelling their components. I don't get the racism, even if its subtle. Hegel is the one trying to hide something here. What do you expect people to say when they find out? Not only that, you clearly state that you need to do the research before you buy, otherwise you have no one to blame but yourself for the mistake. I agree. If you read the OP again, it appears that's exactly what Soniqmike was looking to do.
"Not unlike Ayon, where it is just printed "Austria" and not "Made in Austria" (the usual and official terminology), are HEGEL products actually made and assembled in Norway or just "designed" in Norway and assembled somewhere in China?
I have tried getting a clear-cut answer from dealers with no success. Juste like for Ayon gear by the way."
How else would you read that? No one here is bashing companies that clearly label the country of origin. Were bashing the ones that try to trick people. And notice I said companies, not countries. This has nothing to do with China. It has everything to do with Hegel. |
|
But you will never sell a Vuton handbag that would be made in China even if it could be better made, to a lady who can afford the real thing. Vuitton carries a certain level of prestige and REPUTATION so wherever it's manufactured, Vuitton will manufacturer them to the SAME level of quality. Another words, I don't care where it's manufactured. |
08-29-15: S1nn3r
Knghifi,
Seems like Dayglow answered all your question. 2 peas in a pod! LOL!!! |
Zd542,
You stated, "How else would you read that? No one here is bashing companies that clearly label the country of origin. Were bashing the ones that try to trick people. And notice I said companies, not countries. This has nothing to do with China. It has everything to do with Hegel."
I totally agree.
Regarding the talk about racism and xenophobia, I live in Asia and am married to a local girl. From my point of view this has nothing whatsoever to do with racism or zenophobia. This is about deceptive business practices and nothing more. |
I am surprised that Hegel gets away with this, US importation rules clearly state that you must mark products with the country of origin.
You shouldn't have to be an internet detective to determine this when buying a product.
Why do they want to hide from this fact? |
08-30-15: Zd542
The Chinese re-named one of their cities to USA so they could put made in the USA on their products."
Wrong.
Usa, Japan:
"Located on the island of Kyushu, the southernmost of Japan's four large islands, Usa is a town of about 50,000 population. The name doesn't sound that odd in context of some other cities in the area, including Ota, Aya, Tano, Saga and Ozu. And, for the record, at least two U.S. states (Pennsylvania and Missouri) have communities named "Japan."
But back to Usa. The city has long been the subject of rumors that claimed the following: The original town where Usa now stands was destroyed by U.S. bombs during World War II. The city was rebuilt and given a new name, Usa, so that it could "legitimately" export products to America with labels that said "Made in USA." Many Japanese manufacturers opened offices and factories in the new town so that they could claim the benefits of being able to advertise that they had offices or manufacturing facilities in "USA."
According to information available at snopes.com and in The Big Book of Big Secrets by William Poundstone, this urban legend couldn't be more untrue.
The town was not destroyed during World War II, and was known as Usa long before the war broke out (in fact, it's home to one of Japan's oldest shrines). Products imported to America from the town could not have had a "Made in USA" label, since such labels were required to state the country of origin, not the city.
If, in fact, any products made in the city were slapped with "Made in USA" labels, this was done to sell the items in Japan, not to export them to other countries. American-made products � even electronics � were widely considered superior to Japanese products at that time." |
Thank you Sabai. I can't think of anything lower than throwing racial comments into a conversion, just to manipulate it in some way. There's plenty of western audio manufacturers that clearly state, Designed Here, Made There. Its really no big deal, and I would feel more comfortable buying from a company that doesn't hide from the fact. |
Sabai, is right on. Hegel's business practices are deceptive. |
Zd542,
You're welcome. You stated, "... and I would feel more comfortable buying from a company that doesn't hide from the fact [of where their products are made]." I feel the same way. |
Aolmrd1241: Yes, the Venere line from Sonus Faber, I know all about their products.
I just sold my Domus Grand Piano to a nice guy who was eyeing the entry level Venere brand new - had been wanting to purchase a Sonus speaker for years...it was a no-brainer purchase for him... |
Here's a partial list of components made in America, for those for whom this is important. It is interesting to note that Martin Logan is made in China. So were my Antique Sound Lab Hurricanes, but, of course, that was noted in the original Absolute Sound review by HP.
http://windhaming.com/american-made-audio-list/ |
|
And here is the 7-year old article by The Absolute Sound about products made in China (for those, again, who care). I remembered them doing this article, so you can see a few of the manufacturers who manufacture in China.
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/a-look-inside-the-chinese-audio-industry/ |
A correction regarding Martin Logan, their higher end electrostatic speakers and subs are made in Canada. |
To those who misunderstood,
This forum isn't about products made in China or any kind of racism. This is about companies like Hegel and Ayon trying to be deceptive about where their product are being assembled. Clearly there is an intent to mislead by labelling Norway or Austria with out adding where it is actually made.
Example of Good chinese company like Line Magnetic or USA company like Oppo are honest about the fact that it is properly labeled made in China. Obviously the op isn't complaining about Chinese production.
And yes, I do own some some Chinese made components like Oppo, Martin Logan, Mac Mini (music server). I have no complaints. =) |
Totally agree with s1mn3r:
And to the person who says that the buyer must do his own research, I agree also - but to a certain limit.
Not everyone is as hard-core about their audio, and the simple labeling of "Norway" or "Austria" may be just enough to leading the less-hard-core purchasing into thinking the gear is an actual made-in-Europe product, but wrongly so.
Again, this whole thing is about being manufacturers being upfront with full disclosure to their customers.
I for one am a previous Ayon Orion integrated amp owner and it was one of the very best-sounding amps I ever had in my system.
I did go through 3 sets of remotes ($ 140.00 a pop), but this is nothing compared to being misled this was not a "made in Austria" product. Purely subjective of course.
Look at the back of the Sonus Faber 3.0 speaker. It clearly says "Designed by Sonus Faber in Italy. Made in China.
Build is ravishing, nothing wrong with it. And you know what you are buying. I consider this minimum requirement for those expensive toys, not playing something you are not.
And this separates the long-standing class act companies from the flavor of the months wannabees. |
Add Classe Audio to the list of gear that is made in China and has no mention that it is not made in Canada anymore. They still have the balls to charge premium prices! |
Yogi boy, what a joke that is. |
[Chinese are fully capable of building anything as well as anyone in the world.] Capable is one thing. Doing is another. Would you buy a BMW if it was made in China? So its racist if people don't want to buy Chinese goods because of poor build quality? You won't see too many Chinese cars over here, though. They don't hold up well on the boat ride over. Its just too much of a strain. They can't take that kind on punishment. Now that the Chinese are making cars, we don't make the worst ones anymore. The Chinese re-named one of their cities to USA so they could put made in the USA on their products. Regardless, I can't be one [racist]. I had real Chinese food last night for dinner, made by real Chinese people. I have no idea what's in someone's heart, but these are the comments of a single person in this thread. I read these comments and I detect a anger against Chinese manufactured products. It's just assumed that Chinese products are of poor quality and there's the use of false information to support their belief. If racism, bigotry or xenophobia aren't an accurate description, then please provide a better word to describe this anger. Questioning Hegel's business practices is one thing, and I believe thoroughly legitimate, but IMO these comments are about something else. What is it really about? |
BMW from China is OK but not those lemons from SC !
It not exactly racism Onhwy61. but a variation on that theme commonly called " American Exceptionalism" which most Americans believe in at some level .
More hyper-nationalist that xenophobic but all are daughters of the prime sin, Pride . |
Its not as bad as it looks.
"[Chinese are fully capable of building anything as well as anyone in the world.] Capable is one thing. Doing is another."
That's completely true. There's no question that China is able to manufacture goods at a high level. In many cases, they choose not to. Its not exactly a secret, and China is not the only country to do this. Probably every country has been guilty of doing the same at some time.
"Would you buy a BMW if it was made in China?"
I guess I'm going to have to stop doing this because it blows up in my face every time. I was kidding. If you notice the post above that one, you'll see that it was from Czarivey, who happens to be a big BMW fan and tech. I say stuff like that all the time. No ones ever called me a racist for it.
Just so we don't leave any stones unturned, if you go down a few more posts, you'll see this.
"08-27-15: Zd542
"08-27-15: Wolf_garcia
The horse has left the barn in a BIG way�is the computer you're using made in Detroit?"
No. But how's a computer that's made in Detroit going to help you catch a horse?"
That was a joke as well, just in case anyone was thinking otherwise.
" So its racist if people don't want to buy Chinese goods because of poor build quality?
You won't see too many Chinese cars over here, though. They don't hold up well on the boat ride over. Its just too much of a strain. They can't take that kind on punishment.
Now that the Chinese are making cars, we don't make the worst ones anymore."
Regardless, I can't be one [racist]. I had real Chinese food last night for dinner, made by real Chinese people."
Those 4 quotes are taken out of context. They were in response to my posts being accused of containing a racial element. If you were to go back and read the posts in their entirety, I think you'll see that my intent was the complete opposite. You can cherry pick any statement for words that make that same statement, have a different meaning than was originally intended.
If there was any statement in this entire thread that could be considered racist, it would be this one.
"08-30-15: P59teitel
Now now now Zd, I never claimed I wasn't racist. I only remarked that it wasn't my race being targeted here. And I also use chopsticks, so there."
I'm sure leaving it out was just an oversight.
"The Chinese re-named one of their cities to USA so they could put made in the USA on their products."
I believe I was wrong on that. One of the other posters pointed out it was Japan that did this. He's probably right. It was an article that I read years ago in college as part of a case study. |
09-01-15: Yogiboy
Add Classe Audio to the list of gear that is made in China and has no mention that it is not made in Canada anymore. They still have the balls to charge premium prices! 09-01-15: Taters
Yogi boy, what a joke that is. On the flip side, have you ever considered how much more they would charge if not made in China? SUPER premium prices? |
