HEGEL - Is it really made in Norway ?

This all like being in a river of turds and bending over and picking up one particular turd and saying "This one really pisses me off."

Spot on, No Noise.
In any case many developed countries around the world permit products to be marked as " Made in ...." with a minimal amount of local content. I am a delighted owner of a Hegel P30, and see no problem with the item being made in China- stated or otherwise. Can't fathom how dissatisfaction with Hegel's alleged lack of customer support can precipitate into a crusade to prove they are unethical for not explicitly stating their country of manufacture. If it were deemed to be in bad in law , there would be legal provision for it.

Nonoise/Ashbnrg,
The distance between Oslo and Beijing is 10,061.6 km.
There are not many high-end companies who try to close such a gap.
Probably two or three. I'm sure most of the customers of Hegel would never buy their expensive products, if they knew the real place of manufacture.
This is the definition of cheating and unethical behavior.

Another Hegel owner here. While I'm sympathetic to the bad experience with Hegel that Sabai detailed in another thread, this discussion of so-called "unethical practices" (i.e., failure to disclose the actual country of manufacture) seems like a waste of server space to me. The whole flap is a tempest in a teacup that has gotten just a little tedious and boring. No doubt Sabai has exacted more than a pound of flesh in revenge. I personally don't care if Hegel manufactures in China; learning that did nothing to lessen the enjoyment I get from the music coming from their equipment.

The distance from America to China is 11,640.835km so are we to assume that US businesses who relocated to China (over 50,000 factories-who knows how many were high end companies) are even less ethical and cheat on a higher scale than Hegel?

Nonoise,
It is not the relocation that makes a company unethical. It is the hiding of basic info from the customer on purpose, in order to bias his opinion and maximize profit, that makes it. For this reason, nobody from Hegel will ever respond in this thread.

10-05-15: Vez
Nonoise,
It is not the relocation that makes a company unethical. It is the hiding of basic info from the customer on purpose, in order to bias his opinion and maximize profit, that makes it. For this reason, nobody from Hegel will ever respond in this thread.

Created an Agon ALIAS 8/2015 to hide your identity just to pile on Hegel? I have an idea who's the LOSER. LOL!!!

What we have here is a handful of self-important, self-righteous, anonymous individuals who, for whatever reasons, have embarked on a campaign to denigrate a certain audio company based in Norway. There have been unsubstantiated allegations of impropriety, customer service and "unethical practices." These narcissistic accusers and allegedly aggrieved persons, are obsessive in their pursuit of their agenda.

Alas, given the nature of the Internet, this sort of thing happens all too frequently.

It's time for the moderators to close this thread.

The plot thickens.

"Can't fathom how dissatisfaction with Hegel's alleged lack of customer support can precipitate into a crusade to prove they are unethical for not explicitly stating their country of manufacture. If it were deemed to be in bad in law , there would be legal provision for it."

Regardless of weather or not you feel Hegel is unethical, they do try to hide the fact their stuff is made in China. Nothing has to be proved.

You're also forgetting the fact that a business has an obligation to service the customer. If the customer wants to know what country a product is made in, and considers that a material factor in their selection process, the seller has an obligation to give a truthful answer. Not just ethically, but legally. (At least in the US. Other countries, I don't know.)

I know some posters may want to challenge me based on what they "feel" is the law, but I'm not getting into an argument over facts. If anyone wants to find out for themselves, start with the UCC. You'll find several torts that cover what were discussing here.

Nonoise, Vez, Joecasey and Zd542,

You have all made valid points, as have I. I do not understand how stating these simple facts can be construed as "a tempest in a tea cup" or as "a crusade". IMO, this is turning the matter on its head by trying to go after the messengers instead of staying focused on the issues.

I think one thing we can all agree on is that there should be truth in advertising but I would go so far as to say that most companies would view that as a quaint notion.

Pandora's box was opened a long time ago in this matter.

All the best,
Nonoise

Joecasey, Ps
I'm sorry if I created to you the impression that there is something suspicious by expressing my opinion on this matter. You definitely don't agree with me, but please make an effort to point out were I am wrong.

This is a silly crusade against Hegel, imo.
The definition of a crackpot is someone who won't change his mind and won't change the subject. That's what's happening here.

If you don't like Hegel, don't buy it.
If you think the company is a fraud, file a complaint with the appropriate authorities. There's nothing to be gained by prosecuting the case here.

To those who think it's ok to support Hegel despite their unethical practices, go ahead and do so. No one here is stopping you. But to some who realized that there is something shady going on would like to thank those who speaks out. There is no need to attack each other here. I believe in the freedom of choice.

The question raised by the original post has been answered many times over. Of course everyone is entitled to their own thoughts on the situation and can make their own decision on whether to support the company or not. I don't see any point in continuing this thread, but others apparently disagree.

Printed on the back of MUSICAL PARADISE MP-P1 TUBE PHONO STAGE: " Designed in Canada, Made in China"

I have absolutely no problem with this. Hegel should do the same, that’s all, it is called being upfront with manufacturing origin, and for some people, it matters and it’s their money being spent.

Now, faintly suggest that this Chinese-assembled Musical Paradise phono preamp mentionned above is made in Canada by just printing "Canada’’ on the back. And watch the 3X increase in the selling price.

Far from being a crusade. Simple marketing tactic.

This is the plain truth and is beyond arguing.

Everything has been said.

Hey,
Why not EVERYONE move their business to China?
BMW, Chevy and all GM and whole rest of motor city (almost there LOL), Caterpillar, Smith and Wesson, Krell, Pass Labs, Manley, whatever.
Slave labor is cheap so we can all have our products much cheaper and be much happier right?
Anyone has problems with that?
This thread seems like ignorance contest 

I do not buy gear (knowingly) that is made in china.

I have no issue buying a Chinese product but country of origin should not be a shell game. Any company that causes one to question where the product is made is being deceptive. And it's also apparent that a product saying "NORWAY" is trying to create artificial value by reason of it being presumptively made in Norway, and not somewhere else, whether it be China, etc. 

another problem I have to is I remember a magazine review where it talked about how they were able to keep costs down because of simple casework rather than their chinese origins.

I never thought I would read a thread on the gon that turned into a sociological discussion quoting Emile Durkheim.  Lol

I believe this thread to be about business ethics. It's just some Hegel owners couldn't accept the fact they got duped. Instead of seeing this as a logical conversation, some view it as a personal attack on their system which isn't.

Wow, never expected this thread to be so polarizing!

I see that Hegel is still putting Norway on the rear of their new products -- proud of their heritage -- while not bothering to let their customers know the truth ... that they are in fact not made in Norway but in China. After it became clear years ago that Hegel was deliberately misinforming their customers, IMO they are foolish to continue this practice, in effect doubling down on the issue. 

I referred in an earlier thread to a possible Hegel design flaw. I still believe this is the case after reviewing all the details including their bizarre and emotional reaction. Highly unprofessional. It has been years but they never came clean -- and I do not expect them to come clean anytime soon. After talking to top people in the company for many hours it sounds to me like they may have a corporate character flaw.

Regarding high end audio companies that stand behind their products with integrity and exemplary customer service, I can highly recommend Atma-Sphere, Audio Horizons, Raidho, Shunyata, Synergistic Research and PS Audio, among others. Since Hegel is capable of walking away from their products, when push comes to shove, I do not recommend doing business with this company.

Does it just say "Norway" on it or does it say "Hecho en Norway"??

I bought a Hegel HD-12 DAC used about six months ago. Simply says "Hegel, Oslo, Norway" on the rear panel. No "Made in ..." marking anywhere on the unit, the box, nor the owner’s manual.

I did not know of the China thing when I bought it, but it has been completely problem free and sounds fantastic streaming Tidal from my laptop via USB. Appears to be a high-quality product to me in both construction and sonics.

For the record, the rest of my gear, including cabling (Synergistic Research), is made in the USA (Ayre, VPI, Krell) or Canada (Classe' Audio) excepting my Sony CDP, which was modified by ModWright, so "pseudo-USA" and my Transfiguration Orpheus L LOMC, made in Japan.

This Hegel DAC is well-made, versatile, and sounds ridiculously good for what I paid for it (does any other DAC sound better under <$1k?), so it stays in play for now, regardless of country of manufacture.

Dave

randy-11

They simply say Hegel - Oslo - Norway.

dlcockrum...Classe and Krell both manufacture in China...

Not mine! Classe' DR-9 made in Canada and Krell FPB-600c made in USA when both companies were run by (and products designed by) their founders - Dave Reich and Dan D'agostino - when both companies were at their peak.

Can't speak to their newer stuff...

Dave

if that is all it says then it sounds legal to do

many high end German car parts say "made in Germany" on the box, and angry owners have discovered that means the BOX is made in Germany, not the part inside

I have nothing against things made in China - I have many friends and colleagues in - or from - China

but don't worry - they will soon ALL be out of work and robots will make everything

There are a lot of good quality products made in China. This is not the issue. The issue is being honest with customers. This is the corporate character flaw I see with Hegel -- their refusal to be honest with their customers.

I saw this in my extended conversations with top people in the company when I had a problem with one of their amplifiers. I want to know that a company backs their products and that they deal in a straightforward and respectful manner with their customers in case anything goes wrong. My experience was that this was definitely not the case with Hegel. Not only was I stonewalled by top executives. I was also told I had to dismantle my system -- and I was insulted in the process. Unbelieveable.

Atma-Sphere Amps and Pre-amps are regarded as World Class at Real world pricing and will compete with many major EU and Asian brands.

many good stuff in EU and Asia too.

Chinese Production lines are constantly getting better and improving. I remember Japanese Products were once regarded as low quality but over the years production quality improved and now they are regarded as one of the best on Tech firms. Chinese are catching up and most companies in China are building excellent products.

I would think that the USA is now falling behind compared to EU and Asia.

The big money is now in Asia. That's why companies like Solution, FM and DCS prefer to market their products in Asia.

dragon_vibe,

There have indeed been big changes in Asia and this will continue for decades. I remember after WWII when made in Japan meant cheaply made. Regarding Chinese production, in recent decades you can see the movement toward more and more well made high tech products. In fact, China is becoming a world leader in many areas, including robotics. So, it is puzzling that a company like Hegel from Norway should shy away from letting everyone know their products are made in China. It seems like their mindset is stuck somewhere, somehow -- in a number of areas. This has been my experience with them. Until they step up to the plate in the 21st century they are a company to avoid. There are so many choices out there, and very good choices. Atma-Sphere amps beat Hegel amps, hands down, IMO. And at much more attractive prices. 

Excellent points of view- sabai.

Generally, I agree with Sabai but honestly I think many audiophiles will go with the sound and not where the products are made. With that said, no high-end audio company wants to be associated with products made in China (many reasons....but they do want to max their profits with creating the best image and branding), where for years, products made in China have been known to have quality issues and simply, poorly manufactured. Thus, the no "Made in China" label due to the bad rep, but to your point that's changing. In regards to other choices, the main issue if you ask me is discovery of these great and new products, for example I only found about about Atma Sphere not too long ago, but many so called audiophiles don’t even bother to research/listen and will just go with what’s recommended in Stereophile or some other better known online reviewers. The truth is that Hegel makes great amps and they sound great. I think the issue is about corporate honestly. As people realize that China is no longer a country that just makes tinker toys, companies will become more honest about it. I’m however concerned about how you were treated by Hegel’s corporate. That is just not acceptable. For many reasons, I like products made in the US and I will stay with US made products. Both Rogue and Ayre make great products with terrific service. I own all Ayre products and are exceptional both in quality and service. If you’re in the market for an amp, I would wait for the new Ayre AX-8 coming this fall and give that a listen.

nycjlee,

Regarding the China issue, it is true that China still makes some shoddy products. But, as has been noted, this is changing. And they are making great advances in developing and producing many high tech products in emerging industries. This is underreported, especially in the area of robotics. China also manufactures some very high quality audio products. While some audio companies may not want their products associated with "Made in China" the fact is that many do have their products manufactured in China and are not afraid to say so on their products. IMO, it is worse to mislead customers than to admit "Made in China". The stigma attached to all products that are manufactured in China no longer applies, although some US companies would understandably like to see it stick for a while longer, I imagine.

You stated, "I think the issue is about corporate honestly ... I’m however concerned about how you were treated by Hegel’s corporate [sic]. That is just not acceptable." This is exactly the point I am making. Aside from the China issue, this is essentially an issue concerning corporate culture, IMO. There are a couple of Norwegian companies -- Hegel included -- that are known in the business to have a poor corporate culture. This came to me during a conversation about Hegel and Scandinavian audio companies in general, via the CEO of one of the largest audio companies in Singapore, with which I have a good relationship. Certain things are known on the "inside" that are kept from wider public view.

Personally, no matter how good the sound, I prefer to deal with competing companies that produce great sounding products and that have a reputation for good corporate culture. This can make a big difference in many ways including customer service, problems that may arise, upgrading, etc. The examples in my earlier post -- Atma-Sphere, Audio Horizons, Raidho (Scandinavian), Shunyata, Synergistic Research and PS Audio -- are companies I have dealt with in the past that have the highest integrity and never have disappointed in any way. These are the kinds of audio companies I will always choose to do business with -- while always shying away from the "weak sisters". There is no need to choose a "weak sister" when there are so many "strong sisters" out there.

"when made in Japan meant cheaply made" - Japan solved that by instituting rigorous controls and testing.  For cameras at least, there were J.I.S. stickers on them.  Today, japan rules the camera industry (tho Leica and Zeiss are still there and making high end lenses for Japanese cameras... and some items are made in China or Thailand for japanese manf.s)

BTW, the US used to be a high volume manf. of cheap, shoddy goods - in the mid to late 1800s, for both furniture and cloth or clothing.

Most valuable brand in the world is Made In Germany followed closely by
Made in Japan .
Made in USA  doesn't mean a lot outside USA .

randy-11,

This is clearly a pattern -- from shoddy to superior. Of course, it can take decades to make the transition. But I think we should watch carefully the emerging trends in Asia. The movement eastwards portends a lot of changes in the future. I think this could have a positive impact on the high end audio industry. Because, with lower production costs in China and its satellites, there is a lot of wiggle room for discounting high end products.

Agreed, but low labor costs won't last long and have already changed quite a bit.  Most labor will be done by robots in a few years anyway.

Whether China will set up something like JIS would be the biggest near-term effect on quality.

Another thing about China - if you suddenly need 10,000 engineers for a project... they can be on site in a week.  Even India can't match that (yet).

Greed will rule no matter where something is made or sold .

randy-11,

Robots are the wave of the future and China is a world leader. The use of robots may actually keep the cost of labor down, which is why they are proliferating.

schubert,

I agree. Greed is omnipresent.

Having been insulted (unprovoked) by top people at Hegel Headquarters, after paying full price for their product, I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that there is something very strange going on at Hegel. I think the underlying problem with is one that we also see elsewhere from time to time. Hegel simply cannot bring themselves to say ... we made a mistake here ... sorry ... this needs to be corrected. If they were able to do this they would immediately gain respect and credibility. Instead, they act reflexively, trying to save face.

We can also see this happening with the labeling of their products. There is something strange in their corporate culture that impels them to do the opposite of what one would reasonably expect of a mature company. It is as if, after shooting themselves in the left foot they are ready to reload and repeat the exercise using the right foot. They fail to examine the way they present themselves in certain problematic instances -- being incapable of rectifying problems that are actually quite simple to solve. Their behavior is all the more odd because those I have spoken to at Hegel seemed to be otherwise quite intelligent people. How can we explain this kind of corporate behavior?

This thread makes no sense but it seems like Sabai has it out for Hegel. For all I know, Sabai could work for a competitor and Hegel is kicking there ass in SQ. I have owned multiple Hegel products, still do, and they sound excellent. There are so many great companies that their products are designed in 1 country and built in China, has anybody heard of Apple? IMO it is good business to do this. When you buy an American car, it can have 70% of its parts made overseas. Does Chrysler say made in America when you know the majority of their parts are made elsewhere. Actually, years ago, Mazda had more of its car parts in certain cars made in America than chevy and ford.
i personally don't think this is a bad practice unless a company lies that states "made in XXXXX" but in reality it's made somewhere els, which Hegel hasn't done.

rbstehno,

Full disclosure. I have no connection whatsoever with any audio company except as a customer. The only points I have been trying to make are that Hegel has unnecessarily mislead their customers and prospective customers -- and that being abusive with customers is a strange way of doing business when presented with the problem of defective products.

sabai, you probably mentioned it earlier, but can you remind us what they did that makes you feel "abused".

jetter,

I was calmly relating the details of a defective Hegel amplifier to a top Hegel executive over the phone -- asking that they look into the matter for me. He became explosively angry yelling "that’s bulls**t" and then hung up on me. That’s what I call not only highly unprofessional but also abusive.

Hegel executives continued to stonewall me and offered not an ounce of satisfaction. After being told that I had to dismantle my entire system I was finally given two choices -- sell the Hegel amplifier on the used market or sell it back to the dealer at a multi-thousand $$ loss. I chose the latter.

I have never seen anything like this in all the years I have been dealing with high end audio companies. I remember another audiophile reporting that he had a literally smoking Hegel product and was also stonewalled by the company. Has anyone out there ever seen an audio company that refused to back their own products?

sabai,
Thank you for explaining, I understand why your upset.  It is a shame that the company refused to do the right thing, to me the difference between good an bad customer service is a big deal.  I wish all companies operated under the Odyssey and Bryston models.