I want to see Hegel's birth certificate!
(The long form one, not the short form one) |
Just for an FYI...I emailed Hegel a few days back on 8-28 about this thread,hoping that they could or would chime in. Their response was...
"Oh, goodness me� Thanks for the link.
Best regards
Hegel � Anders"
I guess they are not intereseted in clearing up the controversy. |
While I'd certainly prefer Hegel to be more upfront about where their products are made, ultimately what's more important to me is how well the product is designed and built and how it actually performs. There are good and bad products made in every country, and China is no exception. The key is how well Hegel did its due diligence in finding a good factory and how well they monitor the manufacturing process going forward. Given there have been relatively so few reports of problems with Hegel gear it would seem that they are doing a good job thus far. What is unforgivable, however, is to not stand behind your product when something does go wrong, and what I heard here would definitely give me pause in buying any Hegel product.
Where I differ a bit from some here is in the assertion that Hegel is charging too much for a product made in China. Given the relatively high levels of performance reported by owners and reviewers I'd think Hegel is using some good quality parts in their products, and if they were to build that same product in Norway with those parts they'd have to charge significantly more than they do now. If that's the case, I'd much prefer the stuff be made in China and sound better than be made in Norway and be significantly more expensive or alternatively for Hegel be forced to use cheaper parts and products not sound as good and/or potentially be less reliable. Now, if they're using cheap parts AND charging high prices despite being built in China (i.e. passing on the risk/cache of something made in China without passing on the savings) even if they do achieve good results -- well that would piss me off. But again, given the positive performance reports and relatively low incidence of problems it seems to point to the former rather than the latter. Either way they need to stand behind their products and support their customers or it's a non-starter at least for me. Anyway... |
What is unforgivable, however, is to not stand behind your product when something does go wrong, and what I heard here would definitely give me in buying any Hegel product. Sure if it's true. There are always TWO sides to a story. Remember, this is the internet, anonymity behind a monitor and on a keyboard so all we got to evaluate is contents of their posts. For all we know, they could be in a funny farm. |
Soix you made some very valid points. However I need to respond to your "Where I differ a bit from some here is in the assertion that Hegel is charging too much for a product made in China"
This is highly subjective of course and if for you (as you have demonstrated) the whole package (product, service, build quality, manufacturer origin and price) is worth your hard-earn dollar, then its fine.
This whole thread is NOT about made-in-china quality or even about service.
It is about the customer making his own purchasing mind based on product information that is presented clearly and plainly. And manufacturers (all of them) have a role to play in this. That's all it is really.
China can make some excellent products at great prices, including Hegel, this is not the debate at hand here. |
The Absolute Sound staff Kirk Midtskog visited Hegel R&D offices in Oslo and wrote the following article http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/visit-to-hegel-music-systems-in-oslo-norway/
Although he wrote all the details about the facilities and the people working there, with an analytical presentation of Bent Holter the head of the company, he never mentions anything about the factory. There is no word about the most important part of a manufacturing company: the factory.
It is clear that Hegel requested from Bent not to mention the "forbidden" word, China. |
Well well guess what? At the end of this article in the Absolute Sound, there is this question asked by a certain question asked by a reader, and this question is 2 years old already: "Hegel is made in China or Norway???"
I guess he is still waiting for an answer. |
Well well guess what? At the end of this article in the Absolute Sound, there is this question asked by a certain Derek, and this question is 2 years old already: "Hegel is made in China or Norway???"
I guess he is still waiting for an answer, like many of us. |
Vez,
You stated regarding the interview, "Although he wrote all the details about the facilities and the people working there, with an analytical presentation of Bent Holter the head of the company, he never mentions anything about the factory. There is no word about the most important part of a manufacturing company: the factory. It is clear that Hegel requested from Bent not to mention the "forbidden" word, China."
This reinforces the impression that Hegel is deliberately trying to hide an important truth about their products. This begs the question, "Why?".
Soix,
You stated, "What is unforgivable, however, is to not stand behind your product when something does go wrong, and what I heard here would definitely give me pause in buying any Hegel product."
This actually happened to me. Without exaggerating, it was shocking -- to the tune of thousands of hard-earned dollars lost to me.
You also stated, "Either way they need to stand behind their products and support their customers or it's a non-starter at least for me."
Needless to say, I would never even think of going near another Hegel product, no matter how good their reputation. They don't have any reputation with me after what I went through with them. This has only happened with a single high end audio company in all the years I have spent building my system. It is unthinkable that any high end audio company will not stand behind their product. But, with Hegel, it is indeed thinkable. |
I would consider Design the most important part of a hi end audio company. Mfg is execution of the design and could well be better done by a firm with the scale boutique audio doesn't offer. Perhaps a Norway employee is the QC manager in the plant. |
|
"09-03-15:..Sabai".This reinforces the impression that Hegel is deliberately trying to hide an important truth about their products. This begs the question, "Why?"."
Short answer? Hegel associates being 'made in China' as a euphemism for a poorly made product. Why let the cat out of the bag when the cat in question is content with non-disclosure . |
Sabai,
Hegel is a mid-high end company. They believe that the image of their products is favorable if people think that they are made in Norway that has a good name in HiFi, created by products like Tandberg and Electocompaniet. Obviously, Hegel believes that they can attract more customers at this segment of the market, by giving them the impression that their equipment are made in the homeland by dedicated and highly motivated staff, instead of in a country like China that is known for mass production, low paid workforce and less expensive products.
Personally I think there is no difference in the quality of the final product irrespective of the country of production.
With hifi equipment, where you cannot really measure the level of quality and amplifiers are evaluated quite subjectively, customers need to be impressed very positively. Especially people who do not buy at the budget category. |
I remember reading a review stating how Hegel keeps their prices down due to simple casework and less flashy appearance. Guess that explanation is bs |
Let it go, people. Let it go. |
Dchang1981,
I agree this must be BS. They just don't want to admit the truth -- or stand behind their product if something goes wrong. These are very low end business practices for a so-called high end company. |
Interesting thread. N a similar note, Ive heard that Classe products are also built in China. Can anyone confirm this. |
Aolmrd1241,
The fact that Hegel is so blase about this speaks volumes, IMO. It seems to me this attitude is an entrenched part of their corporate culture. I had a recent problem with a Hegel amp. At best Hegel was blase. Sad to say, it got a lot worse than that. The bottom line -- they refused to stand behind their product and just walked away. Unbelievable -- but true. |
"09-04-15: Sabai
Aolmrd1241,
The fact that Hegel is so blase about this speaks volumes, IMO. It seems to me this attitude is an entrenched part of their corporate culture. I had a recent problem with a Hegel amp. At best Hegel was blase. Sad to say, it got a lot worse than that. The bottom line -- they refused to stand behind their product and just walked away. Unbelievable -- but true."
I know you are not in the US Sabai, but that's a good example of why its so important to use a reputable dealer. This may come as a surprise, but I wouldn't really have an issue buying a Hegel product if it looked like the best solution for my needs. And the reason for this is simply, my dealer sells Hegel. I can tell you for a fact he wouldn't let that happen to me.
I don't think anyone has brought this up yet, but if you buy a product made overseas, from China or any other country, its your dealers responsibility to make the country of origin transparent to the customer. It shouldn't make a difference. That's what it means to be a dealer and service customers.
"09-03-15: Dchang1981
I remember reading a review stating how Hegel keeps their prices down due to simple casework and less flashy appearance. Guess that explanation is bs"
I would say most likely, that statement is not BS. Expensive casework is a very common topic in audio. For example, I was talking to Jeff Rowland about the cost of the aluminium cases they use for their amps. On the model 112, the cost of building the case was so expensive due to the cost of materials and breaking bits used to carve out solid blocks of aluminium, they ended up changing the design of the amp mid production, and just made the face out of polished aluminium. They also lowered the price of the amp $600. ($5000 to $4400). Meridian told me when we were discussing the 500 series, that the cases made out of black glass, was the most expensive part of the component. If you look at speaker companies like Vandersteen and Magnepan, they're famous for giving you some of the best sound for the money in the entire industry. Aside from good designs, not using traditional, furniture grade enclosures was a key factor in keeping the cost down on their products.
I can't say for sure if Hegel is being truthful in their comments about expensive casework, but it is a valid concept. |
Kizzy, Classe products are made in China. Why anyone would buy their products at the prices they are charging must have a screw loose. When they were made in Canada I could see it. You would have thought they would have lowered their prices now that they made in China. Not a chance, they are just making all the profits from being made in China. |
Zd542,
The overseas dealer and Hegel stood shoulder-to-shoulder on this. As a result, I was between a rock and a very hard place. |
|
09-05-15: Sabai
Zd542,
The overseas dealer and Hegel stood shoulder-to-shoulder on this. As a result, I was between a rock and a very hard place. I'm SHOCKED! Now it's Hegel and DEALER have bad customer service. Do you see a pattern ... Hmm! |
Zd542,
Regarding casework, this distracts from the issue of where the units are made and that Hegel consistently avoids being straight about it. |
Knghifi,
Please note that I never said the agent's customer service was bad. When I said the dealer went shoulder-to-shoulder with Hegel I was referring to their not standing behind the product. But they were not disrespectful or insulting -- unlike Hegel from their Head Office whose service was abysmal i.e. non-existent. The dealer did what they felt they could based on their point of view which was in agreement with Hegel's. It was up to Hegel to step up to the plate and let the dealer know they would stand behind their product and make good -- which they did not do. Hegel simply walked away -- and the dealer followed. |
This thread prompted me to email the TAS editors requesting country of manufacture with reviews. Got a reply the same day agreeing that it would be helpful.
Let's hope it's implemented soon. And I urge all to email the editors as well.
Now for my personal view
I believe quality can be built anywhere. However the manufacture MUST disclose the place of manufacture in order to let the customer decide whether the price is acceptable using their own criteria. I urge others to add criteria other then price to that equation. I list a few below and welcome other suggestion:
Environment
Labor practice
Free speech
Product brand track record for performance repair etc
Design r n d
Use of new technology or circuits |
Manley goes so far as to use their US-based manufacturing status as a mantra:
"Built in Chino, not China"
It's used in advertising and printed on their boxes. |
Now for my personal view
I believe quality can be built anywhere. However the manufacture MUST disclose the place of manufacture in order to let the customer decide whether the price is acceptable using their own criteria. I urge others to add criteria other then price to that equation. I list a few below and welcome other suggestion:
Environment
Labor practice
Free speech
Product brand track record for performance repair etc
Design r n d
Use of new technology or circuits My list shopping for AUDIO components: 1. Sound Quality 2. Build Quality + Customer Service 3. Price |
"I'm SHOCKED! Now it's Hegel and DEALER have bad customer service. Do you see a pattern ... Hmm!
Knghifi (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
The pattern I see is too many dealers and manufactures treat their customers like crap. And in this case, Hegel is to blame. As a manufacturer, there's 2 things they must do. 1. They need to have high standards when selecting dealers for their products. 2. They need to support those dealers. In this case, Hegel did neither.
If you look at every successful high end brand, regardless of country of origin, they get those 2 fundamentals right. If a reputable manufacturer can't find a dealer that meets their standards, they don't sell their products in that area. And if a dealer is screwing up, and not meeting the requirements listed in the dealer agreement, they get dropped. I've seen this many times.
If Hegel was doing a better job, this thread probably wouldn't exist. |
Though I've kept quiet, I feel a bit surprised it took this many years for folks to see Hegel simply appears as Consonance gear with both the Hegel logo and much increased price tag applied.
Other than possibly choosing the already existing aesthetic for economic reasons, I cannot see how Hegel influenced the cosmetics. |
The pattern I see is too many dealers and manufactures treat their customers like crap. And in this case, Hegel is to blame. You're getting one side of the story, how do you know it's not customer to blame? Hegel has excellent customer service. I own a Hegel H30 and speaking from PERSONAL experience. Have you ever dealt with Hegel customer service or speaking out of your &^* again? If Hegel was doing a better job, this thread probably wouldn't exist. Name one company that has 100% customer satisfaction. There are bad companies and bad customers! |
Kbuzz,
That's an excellent suggestion.
Knghifi,
You make a great point here.
Zd542,
You stated, "The pattern I see is too many dealers and manufactures [sic] treat their customers like crap. And in this case, Hegel is to blame ... If Hegel was doing a better job, this thread probably wouldn't exist."
Personally, I have had very few problems with high end audio manufacturers. I guess I have been lucky -- up till now. But, in this case, I agree with you completely. If Hegel had simply used common sense and seen that they had everything to gain by standing behind their product and, on the contrary, a lot to lose if they did not do so then we would not be talking about this here. To me it shows there is something very wrong with how they run their company -- where company pride takes the front seat and customer care takes the back seat. Very odd.
Trelja,
An very interesting revelation. I did not know this before you mentioned it. |
|
Knghifi,
You stated, "Hegel has excellent customer service." That may be so -- until you have a problem. I am not the only one who has observed this personally. |
Possibly related to Trejla's comment....
I did not know of a (possible? actual?) Hegel/Consonance connection. Had no idea until reading this thread. I bought my used Consonance Cyber 800 amps and demo Ref 50 pre-amp a good few years back. Subsequently, bought a used Hegel H200 simply based on good reviews and to have a solid state back up. As an owner I'd always wondered about the significance of the Cyber and Hegel remotes being identical (which they are, apart from the word Hegel on one and Consonance on the other). Guess I know now. Does any of this diminish my enjoyment of the Hegel? Not at all. For any prone to China-bashing. I remember a day when "Made in Japan" was synonymous with the word "junk". How long has that NOT been true? To any prone to automatically associate Made in China with low quality, I'd encourage them to take a look inside a Ref 50 pre-amp. I'm not an EE but even to my untrained eye, it is a thing of beauty. And it sounds pretty good too. Not connected to either company (or China!)...just a happy owner enjoying music through equipment from both these companies. |
"09-07-15: Knghifi
The pattern I see is too many dealers and manufactures treat their customers like crap. And in this case, Hegel is to blame.
You're getting one side of the story, how do you know it's not customer to blame?"
I don't. I took Sabi at his word. I guess he could be lying.
"Hegel has excellent customer service. I own a Hegel H30 and speaking from PERSONAL experience. Have you ever dealt with Hegel customer service or speaking out of your &^* again?"
If you want to look at the situation from a perspective of winning an argument, you make a good point. But that now leaves you open for a counter. How can you be sure that you weren't the exception? Maybe you're good experience was a rare exception. If you were less concerned about winning a silly argument, you may not have missed this comment from just a few lines up.
"I know you are not in the US Sabai, but that's a good example of why its so important to use a reputable dealer. This may come as a surprise, but I wouldn't really have an issue buying a Hegel product if it looked like the best solution for my needs. And the reason for this is simply, my dealer sells Hegel. I can tell you for a fact he wouldn't let that happen to me."
What part of that don't you understand?
And now this. Every time I don't put an unnecessary disclaimer in for something obvious, someone always tries to exploit it in an attempt to try and win a silly argument.
"Name one company that has 100% customer satisfaction. There are bad companies and bad customers!
Knghifi (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
DISCLAIMER: Nothing in business is ever 100%. Even the best businesses have an occasional situation that may, or may not, be their fault. ***Please apply this disclaimer to any relevant comment in the past, as well as any relevant future comments.*** |
Sabi,
"Zd542,
You stated, "The pattern I see is too many dealers and manufactures [sic] treat their customers like crap. And in this case, Hegel is to blame ... If Hegel was doing a better job, this thread probably wouldn't exist."
Personally, I have had very few problems with high end audio manufacturers. I guess I have been lucky -- up till now. But, in this case, I agree with you completely. If Hegel had simply used common sense and seen that they had everything to gain by standing behind their product and, on the contrary, a lot to lose if they did not do so then we would not be talking about this here. To me it shows there is something very wrong with how they run their company -- where company pride takes the front seat and customer care takes the back seat. Very odd."
I didn't mean that to be a blanket statement. Some companies are excellent, while others are not. If you look at some of Hegel's peers (other companies that make products of similar function and cost), you can see a vast difference in how they do business. Here's a few examples: Oppo, Rogue, Magnepan, Quicksilver, Vandersteen, Wyred 4 Sound. I could list many more, if needed. My comment was directed towards manufactures and dealers that don't have the same standards. |
PS - the Hegel remote works the Consonance pre volume control (the only remote-controlled thing on the Consonance). Haven't tried the other way around. The Hegel is not hooked up right now. |
I too wish to comment on outstanding customer service I received from both my local Hegel dealer, as well as corp service. I experienced a minor intermittent sound quality issue from one channel, and my dealer confirmed the problem, and had a return authorization quickly from Hegel. They paid shipping to and from, and upon return of my amp, its worked better than ever...extremely quiet and great detail. I could not ask for more from both my dealer, and US service center. Whether its made in China, or not, I am very satisfied with my H-30 amp. Its too bad that one person's negative experience is the focus of this thread bashing a company that I feel makes quality gear with great sound, and for me anyway awesome customer service. I realize that Sabai will quickly attack my post, but I wanted to share my accurate and honest assessment of how I was treated. |
09-08-15: Mribob
"Whether its made in China, or not,"
I do believe that it has been determined that Hegel indeed is 'made in China'... |
Mribob,
You stated, "I experienced a minor intermittent sound quality issue from one channel ...". It is interesting that you experienced a similar problem with your Hegel amp. Hegel stated to me they never had a similar problem with any of their amps. In your case, with a minor channel issue, they acknowledged the problem and stood behind their product. But, in my case, regarding a major issue of one channel conking, out they simply walked away choosing to blame my system for the problem. |
Aolmrd1241,
The question remains whether or not Hegel will come out and state this publicly and whether or not they intend, in future, to state that their products are Made in China instead of simply stamping Norway on the back of each unit. Do not customers who pay a high price for their products have the right to know where they are made -- and for this to be stated by Hegel -- and not left to be discovered on an audio forum? |
This thread started out as a question about where Hegel equipment is made. I don't really see the relevancy of Hegel's customer service. Perhaps people who have had problems with customer service should start a separate thread? |
|
Zd542,
You stated, "I took Sabi [sic] at his word. I guess he could be lying." Of course, this could also apply to any posts on the forum. |
"09-09-15: Onhwy61
This thread started out as a question about where Hegel equipment is made. I don't really see the relevancy of Hegel's customer service. Perhaps people who have had problems with customer service should start a separate thread?"
This is the OP's thread. If he doesn't like where the discussion is going, its his job to step in and say so. He hasn't done that, so I don't see a problem.
Need I remind you that you're as guilty as anyone here of going off topic? It was you that brought racism up. And not only did you bring it up, you then proceeded to pick several of my statements apart and put them back together in a meaning that purposefully takes them out of context. I went over this in an early post if you care to read it. |
"09-09-15: Sabai
Zd542,
You stated, "I took Sabi [sic] at his word. I guess he could be lying." Of course, this could also apply to any posts on the forum."
That's exactly how I intended it. What could you possibly gain by making your story up? And you're not bashing Hegel. I was just pointing out a double standard. You had a different position/experience than someone else, so they tried to discredit your statement. The silly thing is, I hope a whole bunch of people come in and share their good experiences like Knghifi and Mribob. Not only am I OK with being wrong about Hegel, I really hope I am.
The fact remains, though, that Hegel is trying to make it difficult for potential customers to find out if their products are made in China. And that opens them up to fair criticism. If Hegel doesn't like dealing with the negativity that comes with the practice, they can always do something like Apple. Any time you buy an Apple product, the first thing you see when you open the box is "Designed in California, Made in China." If you build a good product, and are not ashamed of where its made, just say so. |
Zd542,
I could not have stated it more simply than you did when you stated, "If you build a good product, and are not ashamed of where its made, just say so." All we are asking here is that Hegel just be up front with everyone. Since they are completely avoiding the issue this begs the question, "Is Hegel trying to hide something?" I certainly hope not, for their sake. |
09-09-15: Sabai
"Do not customers who pay a high price for their products have the right to know where they are made -- and for this to be stated by Hegel -- and not left to be discovered on an audio forum?"
Absolutely Sabai...When I was doing research for a new preamp,I thought the one I was most interested in was a product of Italy. Under closer scrutiny, I found out that it was made in China.The company was proud to say so,with zero qualms about it...Just the way it should be. Hegel or any company making kit outside of their homeland...should be just as forthright...period. |
@ ZD - "If you build a good product, and are not ashamed of where its made, just say so." +1. |
Zd542, I was not the first to bring up racism. I will take credit for being the first to mention bigotry. I'd say more, but you will say I'm quoting you out of context. |
"09-09-15: Onhwy61
Zd542, I was not the first to bring up racism. I will take credit for being the first to mention bigotry. I'd say more, but you will say I'm quoting you out of context."
I'll only say that if its true. Go back and look at the quotes you selected from my replies. If you read them like you have them, and then read them as part of the whole comment, I don't think any reasonable person would take same meaning both ways. If you think about it, you're doing the same thing that Hegel does. |
Aolmrd1241,
Being up front should certainly be company policy when if comes to asking customers to pay $5000 or more for high end audio products. I think this goes without saying. Companies that have a culture of corporate pride that takes precedence over transparency are bound to be found out eventually and will suffer the consequences. |
Back on 8/31 I stated: Hegel should proudly proclaim designed in Norway/made in China. I'm glad you finally agree with me. Let peace reign. |
