@sciencecop
I am surprised the NRC amp cannot drive 4 ohm load at high frequencies - very little power required as the tweeter is 94 dB sensitivity - so at 95 dB SPL perhaps only a couple of watts? So I am still puzzled - perhaps the sensitivities or linearity simply doesn’t match the woofer and mid range so balance varies with SPL? Seems more likely that the voice coil is heating up and resistance increasing and sensitivity is dropping as power increases? Could it be crossed over too low for the tweeters capability?
@dguitarnut
I think WCSS is chasing SOTA in amplifiers and therefore I assumed the same in speakers. Both speakers (focal and Magico) are excellent and better than 99+% out there. But NEITHER are top of the line even for each manufacturer...so I think SOTA applies here to Vivid G1 but not the other two. Also the performance niggles that I point out are minor and irrelevant to most people except someone (WCSS) who has tried 30+ high end amplifiers and is replacing an already very good speaker (Vivid G1)!
For record, I state again - both the Magico and Focal discussed here are on the whole absolutely outstanding speakers...just not quite SOTA.
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Some very nice amps spoken of in these reviews! I would like to try the pass lab and jc1 amps.
Can any body offer an opinion on Meridian 559 and 558 amps?
Supposedly only have a sound to noise ratio of 100 db, however I had read they don't push the boundaries for the over stating of specs.
I have both the above in an all Dynaudio system with c2s, a confidence centre and 4 x contour sr s.
Apinions on the Meridian amps in comparison to the high quality amps mentioned? |
Whitecamaross, Really interested to read your impressions, since I own the sopra 3s and am using them with the diablo 300. I’ve heard good things about the simaudio 860 sopra combo though!
Are you still using the lumin DAC or the Chord Dave? |
Jafox: i Haven’t really had time to evaluate the cables. I’m going to be doing that as soon as the dust settles with my speakers.
As far as magicos, I was told constellation amplifiers is what I need to get. I was already in talks with my connection in regards to the centaur II 500 stereo amp which retails for a whopping 55k.
Not sure if I’ll go that route or just get the Taurus Monos instead which are 39k.
For now I need to try both speakers with my ref10/simaudio 860a and the diablo 300. If the magico beats the focals then I’ll begin to think about constellation amps next but if I end up with focals then I’ll stay with my current front end. |
shadorne.....So who makes the SOTA proclamations, this dogma? The Pope or maybe the Dali Lama? Where can I find this SOTA info? Google? Or you? |
The S5 can play extremely loud without any strain (all reviews and listening sessions confirm that), but you do need an amp that can drive it at high levels. The amp at the NRC probably can’t drive the S5 properly; the impedance is rather low above 2K. There is no other logical reason for that (it is a Scan Speak based Revelator tweeter, one of the best around).
You seem to, rather strangely, concentrate on one thing, did you not see the astonishing lack of THD above 70 Hz (-50 dB for loudspeakers is more than plenty - and most likely impossible to measure outside an anechoic chamber). Feel free to look and compare to all the other speakers they measured; I do that for fun ;)
BTW, that is all history anyway, the S5 Mk2 is superior in all ways to the Mk1, and as you can see from the reviews, it is much easier to drive above 2KHz)
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I Don’t understand the statement “lowest THD measured at NRC” - the measurements are good (excellent speaker) but simply cut off at -50 dB. I can’t find the statement in any of the articles except the Magico website.
What is concerning is the deviation from linearity - the plots show 3 dB of driver compression at 95 dB SPL. This is not very loud. This level of performance may be excellent but not SOTA. It may not show up as distortion but the sound is clearly not remaining properly balanced at increased sound levels or with large dynamics. The plots show increasing dynamic compression as SPL increases and suggest that at 100 dB the treble is down about 6 dB. |
Focal Sopra 3 is the 2nd most expensive class B loudspeaker listed in Stereophile’s Recommended Components. Hmm........... |
There is a lot of speculation going on with many people here not having much experience with the products WCSS is evaluating. "I think it's going to be this, I think it's going to be that". It's not so simple as measurements, sealed vs. ported cabinets, or reviewers' comments. I read the Stereophile John Atkinson reviews of the Sonus Faber Futuras and the Magico S5 II. He talks about the Magico requiring the user to be seated in a very specific ear level for the speaker to truly be appreciated. He says a similar thing about the Futura but not as critical here. When I heard the SF's last month at a dealer's huge room, I could walk all over the room, laterally and closer and farther from the speakers. The presentation was magnificent no matter where I was. But when switching to the Focal Sopra 2's, the sweet spot was very tight; moving just a little to the left or right and the differences were significant. And both pairs there were much farther apart than WCSS will be able to accommodate. Image placement and dimensionality were poor with the Focals. But they were fun to listen to. This is a speaker WCSS can "blast" for his rock music and HT sources. But a refined product it is not. Ultimately I would rate the Sopra as midfi but it is by far the most fun midfi speaker I have heard. The Sopra 3 will be much the same but with even more bass energy that certainly will overpower his room as the Sopra 2's, at a third out into the room, 5-6 feet from the side walls, easily filled the 20x25x10 dealer room. That was what impressed me so much. If you want to go with one speaker for music perfection and also for HT dynamics, especially in a smaller room, I don't think any of these are going to work for you more than a few days. You need to put all your focus on the new room, including 2-3 dedicated circuits, and then restart your quest for the speaker that does it all. The only speaker that I have heard so far that does this and is not an insane cost is the Sound Lab line. The comparably priced Magnepans or Martin-Logans don't even come close. Oh, and how are the Silent Source interconnects working out for you? |
grannyring and charles,
Well (and elegantly) stated as always. Seems obvious, yet we seem to need a reminder occasionally. Thank you.
John |
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The measurements of the S5 are exemplary, the lowest THD measured at the NRC . The legendary Martin Colloms from HIFI Critics, the last word on loudspeakers design, said (and bought), about the S5: “Just for the record, … the overall distortion never exceeded 0.1%. For 80% of the span below 20kHz it measured just 0.04% second and 0.03 % of third harmonic. These are amazingly linear results” “For the science-based reviewer, it is great to see theory so accurately translated into the listening experience. While the S5 MkII may not immediately impress with whizz-bang auditioning, it has power and majesty, excellent resolution, natural timbres, deep, dynamic, authoritative and very well timed bass, combined with huge well focused stereo images. Easy on the ears, you can listen for hours on end to this rhythmically involving and highly musical design.” http://www.magico.net/images/Reviews/S5/Magico_S5_II_complete.pdfIf you want to compare the "cheap" Magico to the Focal, someone unbiased already did (to the Sopra 2, which to my ears sound better than the 3 which have way too much bass). https://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php/product-debuts/magico-a3-december-2017/739-magico-a3-loud... |
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Because measurements don’t tell the whole story. Speakers that measure well have been outclassed by speakers not measuring as well because in this hobby it’s all about how it sounds to the human ear. I just read this post from another Agon member I respect. His comments really get at this truth. His comments below are about a particular area where this speaker (Tekton) measured poorly. In spite of the poor measurement in one particular area the speaker received a stellar review from Stereophile as well as other audio publications. charles1dad6,792 posts07-23-2018 10:57amIt seems to me the overwhelming goal of a speaker (or any audio product) is to sound good. Two professional reviewers and numerous listeners confirm they sound very good. IMO this is simply the bottom line objective. In an academic sense I get the isolated measurement concern and driver arrangement issue. It is however a moot concern if the speaker sound quality is of a high standard which it certainly appears to be. The focus on an aspect of the speaker that in the end doesn’t detract from the overall sound seems irrelevant. Now if this speaker had flawless measurements across the board yet produced poor/mediocre sound quality, there’s a legitimate problem. This is audio so we listen and judge. Charles |
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i'm very anxious for the WC Focal Sopra 3 review.
for me personally, i will get a good feel,speaker-wise,of WC's impressions since we both will have shared listening experiences with martin-logan and focal.
my 2 top speaker choices!!
(wished i lived next door!! gggrrrrrr..lol)
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No offense taken mrdecibel. See I don’t mind when people articulate their argument like you just did. I just despise it when they come into MY JOURNEY and attack me. I get it, this isn’t for everyone and that is fine. I’m doing this for me and for those of you that want to keep following me.
That said guys, the speaker journey is a hell of a lot more difficult than changing amplifiers. I spent 5 hours yesterday packing up the G1s and Wilsons. I had to take breaks because the Florida heat and humidity right now is crazy. I am not sure I can keep trying more speakers due to
the massive effort required to pack and unpack plus me needing an extra hand to
do this. With amps, it was mostly me lifting and packing. Not with speakers. I Can’t do it alone.
I do want to find a speaker that can improve on what I’ve heard so far in my room. I want to like either the magico or focals.
Guido: yes I’ll break in the focals for sure. They deserve a fair shot. |
I have to agree with shadorne on this one. IME the G1s are in a different league, especially when reaching 100 db plus, which is quite easy to do with the amplifiers WC has had, and WC likes it loud. I believe a new merry-go-round will be starting, this time with speakers ( what am I saying, it has already started ). WC is having fun in all of the switchovers and changes. He will not be able to settle on anything at this time. I am sorry WC if I am offending you. I am calling it as I am seeing it. Continue to enjoy the ride. MrD. |
Historically, I have found Focal to be more musically and emotionally satisfying than Magico.... But the Focals being factory fresh might play against them.... WCSS, will you be patient enough before lifting camp and trekking for the next hill?
G.
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I think this shootout will be decided on speaker design. The Magicos being a sealed design cabinet should integrate better in a small room. |
I would not go as far as asserting that the speakers in questions are not good... Fact is that I am rather fond of Focals.
Yet, reality is that dealers often recommend those brands on which they have obtained higher margins.
G. |
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Thanks techno dude and tomcy6. I believe that whichever speaker I end up selecting will be more because it behaves better in my room rather than one being ten times better then the other. Both are excellent speakers but I believe a matter of taste and room friendliness with one of the two pairs is how the winner will be selected. Which one will it be? We shall see.. |
WC, It's just more evidence of how subjective audio preferences are. You know that the only way to tell which speaker you will like best is to hear them in your own system, and even then, you may change your mind from time to time. |
I think the midrange should be thicker on the Magicos, thiner on the Focals because their very light cone material ( foam sandwich with fiberglass) have always had that sound signature ( supposed to better and richer with the latest designs...Sopra, Kanta, etc.)
I believe the Focals will have more boogie factor , more midrange snap and speed...snare drums twacks should need less power from the amp for the same volume level than the Magico.
I think detail and refinement should be in favor of Magico.
Bass should be more tuneful on the Magico, sealed design + woofer cone material.
I think the Magicos will be easier to set up speakers than Focal. Sealed design, smoother highs...a speaker that behaves better.
The Focal are more extreme...highs...bass...ported design. |
i got my discount on the sopras man. Right now, nobody has decided to respond or give me their input on the argument from both dealers huh?
one dealer says sopra 3 will kill magico s5 mk2 and the other one said not a chance in hell.
thoughts? |
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I suspect WCSS is more likely to eat a can of cat food than to buy a McIntosh product. |
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Did you manage to get 20% off the Sopra 3 ( most usual discount). |
Magicos are already broken in. The focals are new sealed. |
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WC, not only can it take a long time for speaker evaluations, but any big buck speakers ( any speakers really ) might take hours just to get them dialed in to their sweet spot, before any serious listening time can happen. Again, ime. Enjoy ! MrD. |
So what mikepaul said is what I am thinking. Auditioning speakers for 10 min doesn’t really tell you the full story. Hours of listening sessions will give your ears a better impression of whether you love or hate the speakers. I will see which pair I can live with the longest and then report back. The Wilsons leave tomorrow and then the vivid audios a few days after. |
Looking forward to your impressions and thoughts on those speakers -whitecamaross. JM Labs/Focal loudspeakers are certainly not mid-fi products. Happy Listening!
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WCSS....just by chance i happened to listen to the Focal Sopra 3. i was at a dealer to pick up my turntable.
as you might remember, i love the martin logan sound. he had a pair of 15a's set up in the adjacent listening room. so i was able to audition both.
the electronics were mcintosh ( not the biggest mac fan but it sounded good) . music was streamed. again, not ideal. but....
i won't describe the Sopra sound but they left me an IMPRESSION on me. WOW!
i had listened to many cone driver speakers along my personal journey and this is the one that i could live with. overall i preferred the 15a's. but that's just me.
i own the M-L 13a's , and i could never give them up.
the focal?
can anyone say "second system? hmm lol
mike |
I think you have to listen to the both WC. |
I think the Focals will have more apparent bass and could sound somewhat more lively-at least initially compared to the Magicos, but over extended listening, I think the Magico will prove to be the more accurate and satisfying speaker.
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Ok guys so 2 of my good connections are having a big battle with me. One claims the Focal Sopra 3 will embarrass my Magico s5 mk2. He said the sopra 3 with bhk 300 amp And ref10 preamp is by far the best he’s heard for the money. He’s also a YG dealer and Magico dealer. He said the Focal Sopra 3 will make the magico sound thin and without any character.
On the other hand, the dealer who sold me the magico is also a focal dealer and has had sopra 3 in his room as well and said they were just ok but it’s a mid fi speaker. He said the magico is a superspeaker and it will kill the sopra 3.
Long story short, I will have both but I don’t know which I’ll like best.
What are you guys’ thoughts on what they are saying? Again both are magico and focal dealers so they both know both speakers rather well. I will say I’m a bit nervous about opening the focals and loving them. I may have to just wait until the magicos arrive first. |
Guido: i will look into it. Thanks for the article.
Mikepaul: no I did not cancel it. They will be here on Tuesday. Then the magico will be here next Saturday. |
I'm sure the Gryphon 300 sounds excellent has you mention WC, many Gryphon / Magico owners go with the Antileon Evo or Colosseum. Has good has the 300 is' it's nowhere near the Antelion or Colosseum from what they say.
I unfortunately have not had the pleasure of listening to Gryphon as of yet.
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WCSS.....So, I guess you cancelled the Focal Sopra 3's ???? |
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Hello WCSS, have you ever considered doing some speaker placement using the Masterset process devised by Peter Gansterer of Vienna Acoustics and John Hunter of Sumiko.... It does take a modicum of patience, but you achieve achieve good results on your own without paying a cent in room treatment or active compensating systems.
Here is a link to a somewhat simplified DIY form of Masterset:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ud04dqtmas5pw2k/master-set.pdf?dl=0
There is a bit more to MasterSet than what is described in the file, yet the document is a good starting point.
Saluti, G.
PS. If you decided to ignore Masterset, I promise you I shan't pester you about it every second day *Grins!*
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I am thankful for the wife of course as well :) she is a keeper ! Oh that journey :-) |
Guido: AMEN to your explanation :)
I am here blasting my gryphon 300 with vivid audio G1's and with a drink in my hand i am wondering, " why am i buying Magicos if this combination sounds OUTSTANDING ?"
WELL, it is my journey and i have not decided WHEN it will come to an end.
Do you guys have ANY IDEA how many people have messaged me here wishing they were my neighbors? Why? because they would also love this journey with me. They would love to sit here and listen and listen and then change stuff out on the fly and see what happened to the sound and take notes and learn from it. It is such a blessing in many ways to be able to do this and as often as i do. I am thankful for the wife of course as well :) she is a keeper ! |
MIT cables make sense for the Magico, since their sound signature is known (at least what I've read) to be smoother and/or more laid back and relaxed. Dave |
Guido.......your explanation is perfecto ! However, my only question is something I have mentioned before. When dealing with components such as these, " those that are supposed to get out of the way of the music ", should be in a room that both be of proper size and acoustically near perfect. This will always be the downside to what he is trying to accomplish, otherwise, listen through a good set of headphones. The room, the room, the room.........this of course has been my experience, and is my opinion. .....I guess we will see with the Magicos.......Enjoy ! MrD. |
e Hmm, lemme see if I can explain our heroic friend WCSS's acute manifestation of Audiophrenia Furiosa in bulletted form....
* He can do it because his wife is a Saint!
* His spirit is that of an explorer of old, Always restless, always questing, always yearning... Not so much that of the pioneering settler who explores every last nook and cranny of his magic valley nestled amongst the tallest hills and then happily puts down roots forever.. The true explorer can't help it wondering about What's just out of sight, beyond that next hill, and is compelled to take immediate action.
* Conversely, the generational exploration of the World that in some 80,000 years inched early human habitation from East Africa, through the Southern coast of the Arabian peninsula, the whole landmass of Asia, the Aleutian land bridge, and then gradually South through the Americas, all the way to Tierra Del Fuego is alien to WCSS's "forma mentis"
* Thus, the goal is as much the experience of the journey, as are the resulting scattered bits of knowledge and the fond memories of its happenings. Read Charles Darwin's The Voyage Of The Beagle(1)... you will grok the spirit.
WCSS's eternal question is... "What if?"
* WCSS's back does not get dislocated by hefting ungodly weights day after day *Grins!*
* He is having load of fun doing what he is doing, and is happiest when we can enjoy his adventure vicariously....
* ... But WCSS does not feel particularly obligated to heed every suggestion -- sometimes more like obsessive demands for methodological conformance or directional intimations -- from the other denisens of this most audiofoolish watering hole... This being a Free world, and all that jazz.
...
Bottomline: let's relax and enjoy our friend's adventure, even though mostly vicariously.... Simetimes we will agree with his choices and the -- never permanent -- turn he has taken, while other times we will wonder... Yet always we must admit that he, and all of us, are having fun.... At WCSS's not unconsiderable expense, that is... Ah yes, did I already mention that his better half is most certainly a Certified Saint(2)?
Saluti, G.
Footnotes:
1. Downloadable from: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/944
2. WCSS's better half should be cloned!
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Jafox: i concur with you. I wasn’t feeling the luxman leaving me but I felt that I had a great opportunity to try magicos so I did. Sacrifice a thing to try something that could be a game changer.
Lets see what happens...
lastly, I can always go back to luxman if I decide to. I know that magicos sound excellent with gryphon so lets see what happens.
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Luxman has been retired from my system since I had to trade all the pieces in as part of my deal with the Magicos. I must say this is surprising and sad to hear. After all the enjoyment you have had with these, all your praise, ranking the Luxman as #2 being the Rowland amps, and now sending them out to pasture for the sake of trying another speaker? In your room, they portrayed space like nothing else you have recently heard. This trait is the most difficult to achieve and now you’re starting all over yet again? |
dep14: Cables... ah... if someone can explain to me how a $5000.00 power cord makes a bit of difference for that last 3 feet after the electricity has traveled MILES, then you should be using those sales skills to make some bank selling a product that can get you paid well. There's no need for anyone to explain anything. Designers often can not explain many things, but through trials of different active and passive components, materials, implementation layout, etc., differences are indeed heard. Try out a few power cords. I suggest at the preamp, DAC and power conditioner, and determine if you hear any benefits to one product vs. another. If not, that's cool. Speakers/Room
Source
Amp
Best be spending 90% of your budget there. Typically there are 2 cables at each system component, a power cord and an output cable, either digital, IC or spkr cable. To limit the expense of these 2 cables at about 10% of the cost of their associated component is an arbitrary and potentially devastating to the system design result. But once again, if it works for you that's cool. |
Dep14: I love the way you responded. It’s clear and straight to the point.
Thezaks: I thought about it but I’ve got too much front end right now. I don’t want to bring any more amps and preamps until my Magico speakers arrive next Saturday.
I have been in talks with my connection in regards to cabling and he said MIT cables is what Magico uses to test their speakers. Maybe I go the MIT route someday but I need “seat time” first with the speakers and my components before I began tweaking. I need to get my ears used to the sound of the speakers so I can later pick up the differences of any changes I make as I go.
I was told magico sounds amazing with gryphon and constellation so I may explore. Luxman has been retired from my system since I had to trade all the pieces in as part of my deal with the Magicos.
I will say something to you all: the simaudio 860a will come out of the box and begin to play again and it has become the amp I’ve held on to the longest. Why? Because I remember the day I connected it to the ref10 and the revel salon 2s. Wow it was insane how that combination sounded. |
