I stand corrected; Beethoven got soul, and Beethoven definitely "boogies".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MFbn8EbB4k&feature=fvst
305 responses Add your response
I stand corrected; Beethoven got soul, and Beethoven definitely "boogies". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MFbn8EbB4k&feature=fvst |
I need to put this in Fregean way: any sentence with the word 'soul' as a part is not truth-functional. This word may have some sense but it lacks reference. There is no bearer for this 'name' which is the same as a not existing entity. To attribute whatever quality to a non existing entity has nothing to do with science. This word is invented as the opposite of the word physical so to use this word means to assume 'extra physical' reality. There is no music kind without physical instruments , the human voice included. The lack of musical vocabulary can't be compensated by use of metaphors like 'soul'. Regards, |
Every segment of society has it's own unique dictionary. You will not find the word "soul" in an electronics dictionary; but you would find it in a "stereo" dictionary, or a jazz and blues encyclopedia. While I am not an expert in classical music "jargon", I have never heard that word used in reference to classical music. Since the subject here is "music", as opposed to "metaphysics", I do believe someone's trolly has jumped the track. |
Dear Orpheus, What 'metaphysics' means is an inscrutable phylosophical issue. To reduce the complexity Quine wrote an article about 'On what there is'. Aka the ontological question about what kinds of beings there are. Stated in quantification terminology: 'there is some x such that...' Well we need to put same name in place of the variable x to make sense of such a statement. As I already mentioned the problem is not the 'sense' but the reference. To be truth functional an expression needs both: the sense as well as the reference. The 'soul' obviously lacks the reference. Regards, |
In "audiophilic" terminology the word "soul" is synonymous with life. I suppose in that context, it could be used in some instances in regard to classical music; however, it is also commonly used in regard to a "genre" of music. In the context in which the word is used in regard to the TT, I would translate that to "does it generate life to the music?" |
Dear Rok2id, To explain the 'point of this discussinon' I will use this example. This also may explain the difference between the sense and reference. We in Europe spend a huge amount of money for the collider in Cern. The 'point' was that the meaning or the sense of Higgs particle was clear to any particle physicist. Ie what the contribution of this particle is to the theory . However no physicist knows if this particle exist. Aka if the name 'Higgs particle' has a reference. To answer this question we spend all this money. If this particle can't be find the whole theory will colapse. Such is 'the force' of reference. You are of course free to explain to us what 'soul' refers to. I assume that you will produce (then) some 'gibberish' of your own making. Regards, |
I did not tealize that English was not your native language. I apologize for the gibberish remark. In what country do you live? I spent about 12 years in Europe as a member of the US Army. Cern: The europeans have speant a lot of money on cern, but, it past history is any indication, the USA will spend the most. We always do. And if Higgs is not found, that does not mean Higgs does not exist, so the Theory will continue to hold. If a theory explains all questions, it must be true, or at least thats how the physics folks seem to think. I assume by 'sense' and 'reference' you mean 'Theory' and 'Reality' Soul: Has a religious meaning. Sort of like a moral compass. All men have souls, given by God, seperates Man from the lower animals, Which allows us to mistreat and eat them. hahhahahah Soul in music: a term used to describe a certain type of african-american music in the 60's and even to the present time. Soul or soulful in a musical sense means music that elicts great emotion and feeling from the listener. All genres of music can be soulful. What does all this have to do with turntables? I have no clue. Stereo components are not living creatures. They have no soul, turntables are not 'voiced' to do anything except play LPs. I am glad you are a member of the forum. Gives us a different perspective. Esp on these monster speakers we seem to think are so vital to good sound. |
Dear Rok2id, We obviously agree regarding 'the soul' in the TT's. In my first comment I stated that the problem with metaphors is the fact that everyone has his own interpretation. Your position is that inanimate objects like TT's have no soul. But you assume that living objects like humans do . My position is physicalistic also in this regard. There is nothing 'extra physical' in our brain. Regarding the theories the situation is much more complex. There is no way to forbid onyone not to believe in some theory, no matter what. But there is also a conception of the truth which is independant of us. Ie something is true or false independant of us. Ie if we know that something is true or false.I am not sure but I think that this is the Kantian conception of truth. Regards, |
"They have no soul, turntables are not 'voiced' to do anything except play LPs" Actually that's not correct. No component is perfect and any finished component represents a series of design compromises that have been chosen by the designer. The designers choice of compromises may reflect their preferences or priorities in the presentation of musical playback, which one could argue that gives you some insight into their "heart and soul". |
"Actually that's not correct" Actually that is correct. "No component is perfect and any finished component represents a series of design compromises that have been chosen by the designer. " Other than stating the obvious, what does that statement mean in the context of the question at hand? or to make it simple explain the difference between a Jazz turntable and a classical turntable and a country TT you get my drift? how are they different? TTs might be different based on price point, but that has nothing to do with music types. I assume we are excluding children's toys |
I think, that in a somewhat simplified way Orpheus10 got it right. Rok2id, thank you for calling me stupid and for your active participation. Nandric, I am glad that you took us in the direction of God particle, or Higgs boson. What Europeans, and Americans by the way, do in their efforts to find it, is the most ridiculous, expensive and potentially very dangerous thing I've ever heard about. They want to f... with God without a slightest idea of the consequences. Not to mention without the slightest idea of what God might "think" of it. Such idiots. Every particle or whatever is God particle. |
Inna: Until I read this post I had no idea it was your thread. I just jump in and often don't read from the beginning. I would not have said it was silly if I had known it was you. You seem to be one of the more sensible members. I always read your stuff. Agree with almost none of it, but I like the way you say it. France is the biggest fraud on the planet. |
If you are right, let's hope they do create a blackhole that will swallow that land. But you know Switzerland is right there too and may follow France. Any fan of soulful Swiss music here? Personally, I have no idea of Swiss music at all. They make a lot of audiophile stuff though. By the way, incidentaly I just bought a pair of excellent French jeans, incidentaly because I was looking for Italian but ran into French. Even if France vanishes soon, I hope my jeans won't. How do I say in French: "Anything but my jeans!" ? |
Inna, you obviously missed the the point of reference. The religious 'arguments' are silly in the context. Ie the religious statements have no truth values. For the truth value one need the sense as well as the reference of the used names. Otherwise we may also discuss the peculiarity of Pegasus or the unicorns. Regards, |
Dear Rok2id, You have obviously never heard about phylosophy of science. The truth values are from logic.The logical schematics mark the places with variables which need to be filled in with names such that an sentence function can become a sentence with a sense. But the names must have a reference for the truth values. You mentioning of Hitler en Stalin in this context says more about you than about those persons or me. But to put this more clearly: religion has nothing to do with science. Regards, |
"religion has nothing to do with science." God has a lot to do with Science. Unless you believe the universe and all it's laws just happened by chance. A word of advice, get you a good english dictionary, I think some of your points are being lost. At lest I have trouble following your line of thought. |
"religion has nothing to do with science". The one who says it understands exactly nothing. Nandric is suffering from what is called philosofical intoxication. That's why he makes no sense. There isn't by definition any sense in this kind of though process.As a consequence, people like that cannot positively contribute to the discussion, an even negatively. |
I just found this thread, and was interested in the topic, and felt I had some thoughts on the subject. I started to read through the thread, and see that it has veered in a million directions. In response to the op, I would like to share my experience. I owned a very expensive German turntable, tonearm and cartridge - all extremely well reviewed. The problem was I rarely listened to it. When I would reach for something to put on, cd"s always won out. That's a pretty strong indication that something was wrong. A friend suggested I listen to one of Steve Dobbens reconditioned Garrard 301's. I bought one, with a triplanar arm, and a Dynavector xv1s, and now my analog sings. The German table did everything right; it just had no soul. The 301 has me plowing through my record collection; it has soul. |
Inna, I prefer phylosophical 'intoxication' above the religious one. If you want to negate some statement you need some argument. For example deliver some or any proof that religion has something to do with science. 'The one who says it understand exactly nothing' is not an argument . Besides 'exactly nothing' make no sense at all. BTW your 'contributions' are more suitable for some religious forum. |
That's the point. If that German table did everything "right" but you didn't want to listen to it because it sounded wrong to you, the table in fact did everything right except the most important thing we are talking about here. Nandric, what a wonderful arrogance. What makes you think that you are capable of understanding any argument that I might present? Your posts both in this thread and others strongly suggest that it is a very unlikely event. In addition, I am not talking about religion in a usual sense. We are trying to discuss the phenomenon which is not easily understood if at all. At least, I think, a sufficient number of posters agree that this phenomenon does exist. That's the beginning. |
"BTW what is the reference of your word 'God'?" This is an example of a group of english words that make no sense. And God and religion are two different things. God is a supreme being and religion is an organization created by man. When people of science speak of God, they are not talking about some guys running around the Middle East, or any of the 'holy' books. It's possible God does not know we even exist. Before you try to be nasty and cop an attitude, go somewhere and learn the language or send in your native tongue and we will translate on this end. I have no idea what you mean by 'reference' or 'sense'. BTW, being an European I understand your hostility towards God. Faith is dead on your continent. You put your faith in socialism and man. Your history demonstrates the folly of this. Good thing the US Military still believes and is always ready and able to save your Atheist asses. |
While talking about turntables, somehow we pushed in the background the fact that those turntables are designed and made by particular people. Just as in ancient and not so ancient Japan, each Japanese sword made even by the same master was different, and as far as I know, those masters destroyed those swords that in their opinion didn't come out quite right, that's, had no soul. So in this sense I would say that there are no inanimate objects made by man, there is a certain transmission of something from man to created objects. |
****The German table did everything right; it just had no soul****- Czapp Yet, earlier in your post you state that the fact that you didn't want to listen to it, was an indication that something was wrong. It can't be both. Clearly, the Garrard is the better machine; it let's the soul in the recorded performances (emotion) be heard. Music, not machines, have soul. |
Czapp: "The German table did everything right; it just had no soul."How do you know it did EVERYTHING right? Is it because it is "extremely well reviewed"? Obviously, something is not right. If you can't quantify it, then it's rather hard to correct it... Well, you switched to a different turntable so, I guess, that solved the problem. _______ |
Rok2id, This is an international forum with the custom not to comment on grammar and English capability of the foreign members.Nor the native English speakers btw. 'Not done' as it is called. For the 'sense' and the 'reference' you should try Frege, the 'father' of the modern logic ('About sense and reference'). Your lack of education is 'visible' in nearly any sentence you wrote. Your and Inna's thoughts about Cern accelerator are typical in this context. For the relationship between religion and science you both should try Galileo. |
Yes, it did everything right as in- Deep, tight bass, mid range detail and extended highs that were free of grain and edge. Good prat, and a solidity to the overall presentation. Yet....., it just wasn't captivating. IMO the measure of a system, or a component, is how much it draws you in. If it doesn't do that, then what is the point. |
Inna, I played the Miles Davis "In a Silent Way" Master Copy on the Studer A820 this weekend. My friend from Paris was somehow impressed how it sounds on Tape. Natural was his first word. Also Classical Master Copies sound pretty good but I don't own many. Maybe we could ask "some RTRs have soul some not?" best & fun only |
Rok2id, ha ha, I like your model of the world somehow because it is simple.... Of course the Americans always pay the most but they know how to get the most out of everything. So it is quite a good balance from my point of view. Religion is a matter for itself. You cannot convince an atheist to run on your "religion ticket" but are all Europeans atheists. Unfortunately not, ha ha... I hope you get my irony. best and fun only |
Dear Thuchan, As far as I know the American military and foreign policy are based on American national interest. Our military member want to convince us that this policy is somhow of universal benefit. I hope he will keep his job after Iraq and Afghanistan. BTW I don't believe that 'they know to get the most out of anything'. Any idea about the foreign and the national debt? Regards, |
Dear Nandric, I just returned having spent 4 weeks in the US. My impression is that people tend to become a bit more aggressive or let`s say less patient with the rest of the world and also with their own government. As you know military is one of my hobbies (now passive, on history and consulting only). I just learned that the US forces withdraw about 15000 people from Europe due to cost reasons most properly. And I think they are right. They need to reduce expenses as the European armies too. But you have seen what this means when the Russian forces went back to their barracks in Russia 1990. The Russian government had to create new jobs and opportunities for soldiers and military civil personal. This is quite a challenge doing so. So maybe our friend has found a new job here :-) now kicking our ass... best & fun only |
Czapp, thanks for providing the details of the sound. I do not know what element of the sound is "captivating" to you. While the things you listed are important in sound quality and certainly can enhance listening experience but for me I have noticed harmonic richness and natural texture provides great sonic pleasure. If a turntable does not have the "bloom" and natural harmonic decay--as if a Monet painted by a cubist--I lose interest. The Garrard 301 you mentioned is a harmonically pleasing machine and not to mention its juicy tone so I don't blame you for liking it. It is this reason I part ways with certain popular and highly touted direct-drive turntable, even if their specs and speed accuracy are in top shape. When another direct-drive table is heard with no cogging or whatever soul sucking element is gone, the sound is much more relaxed and "captivating." I like to listen to as much variety of music as possible, from Bach to Slayer, to determine if I like the sound of a turntable or not but I also developed a personal quickie test by playing music with double bass for checking "bloom" or harmonic decay and violin for texture, smoothness, and lack of cogging. After hearing the replay of those two instruments I already have a good idea if I like the table or not. Even better if there's piano in there... There was a day one of my dd tables had speed issue and before I check it with the strobe light the sound I heard was just cold and uninvolving as if all the warmth has sucked out of the room and yet all the other sonic elements were still there and then I saw a tiny slight jitters visibly on the strobe. So after some tinkering, the table is back to running normal and the sound or "soul" is restored. It was this experience that I started to believe, at least in dd tables, the importance of eliminating cogging, however microscopic it may be, is a worth cause. Of course, I am sure there are other things that can affect the sound of tables of different genres. We just have to find out what they are so we can regain the soul. Anyway, thanks for the reply. ______ |
Dear Thuchan, 'foreign and national debt is a matter of perspective'? This must be some new economic theory. Ie it seems to allow an easy way out: change the perspective. However if you compare the European central bank with the American you should pay more attention to the printing (money) press. As a German you are of course aware about the German fear for the inflation. So no European bonds nor printing press will be allowed by the Germans. If I am correct that is. Glad to 'see' you back btw. Kind regards, |
Nandric: I would have sworn you were french. You 'sound' french. I just looked it up and you are dutch. A lot of big talk from a person from such a small and insignificate country. One question, what was the dutch contribution to CERN? I know all of this has nothing to do with audio, or has any place on a audiophile web site, but there is no way I will let a worm like you put down the country and the men and women that made such a sacrifice on your behalf. Of course, these days everyone is an 'America Basher' Weren't many like you around in Holland in 1940-45. I think the germans did a much better job of handling you people. We should have left it to them. BTW, currently there are quite a few of your countrymen in my area. Training at the local Military post. You can always recognize them. They all wear hair-nets and they wear orange socks. No wonder the Red Army ran back to Russia. |
"As you know military is one of my hobbies (now passive, on history and consulting only). I just learned that the US forces withdraw about 15000 people from Europe due to cost reasons most properly. And I think they are right. They need to reduce expenses as the European armies too. But you have seen what this means when the Russian forces went back to their barracks in Russia 1990. The Russian government had to create new jobs and opportunities for soldiers and military civil personal. This is quite a challenge doing so. So maybe our friend has found a new job here :-) now kicking our ass..." Thuchan: You sound rather stupid for a german. The US Army is coming out of germany because the Red Army went back to Russia. We should have all left decades ago. Be assured, the rest of Europe wanted us there, not to defend against the Soviets, but to keep the german army in germany. :) You might want to explain that to your side kick in holland. Most of the troops that fought in the first gulf war came out of germany, US 7th Corps, and they never went back, and the American economy chugged along just fine. In fact it boomed. For which army do you consult? Give my best to all the fine folks in Nurnberg. |
Νο one in Europe is willing to accuse the people of US for anything as we boil in the same boat with no exceptions. Somehow I feel it comes the time for us all to hold back and ask about whats in Rockefeller's & Rothschild's mind. The army, the currency, the religion, the alimentarius codex, even the education program and yet the support system for family ties in the West world are under tight supervision from tools like Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan and alien subhuman puppets in the Bilderberg Group who they don't give a shit about humanity. So lets have a doubt for what they had in their minds when they put "In God We Trust" on the USD. The crisis of our times is artificial and was created with in purpose to measure the strength of human's resistance preparing the battle field for ... lets just say : A new start. Those trainees Dutches were most probably destined for Greece. So, please lets stop expose our anger to our forum mates and lets find some courage instead to support our values for human dignity for days to come. |
Dear Rok2id, Please "put a sock in it". You are quite right on only one thing: your political and religious opinions are way inappropriate on this thread, not to say also regrettable in many ways. If you keep up in this vein, we might find out just how crazy and unpleasant some of us are. But in particular I want to ask you whether you really believe that it is a fault of the Dutch that they live in a "small" and therefore militarily powerless country? Do you also think that you and I can take some kind of credit for the accident of our having been born in this large and powerful country? If so, you are a fool. (I served in the military, too, so don't go there, please.) To Nandric and Thuchan, I apologize. You have a right to your present political opinions regardless of anything that may have happened 60 years ago, when none of us was involved. Further, there is not a country on earth that does not bear very visible ideological warts, new and old, political and economic. |
"your political and religious opinions are way inappropriate on this thread" I will assume you can read, therefore, I want you to show where I stated a religious or political opinion. Why are you offering an apology? I didn't know you were part of the exchange. I certainly hope you aren't apologizing 'for' me. Save it. "To Nandric and Thuchan, I apologize. You have a right to your present political opinions regardless of anything that may have happened 60 years " And why do they have a 'right' to post their political opinions, but I don't? Maybe you should retink your post. I think I know what you intended, but you missed. And I don't hold my tonque when some ingrate bad mouths the US Military. Foreign or domestic. Esp one from a country that spent 2 hours fighting against the Nazi's and 5 years fighting with them. (the dutch ss division in russia) If you can read, you will see that the dutch person was very derogatory towards this country and condescending towards me. I just returned fire. |
LEWM: "If you keep up in this vein, we might find out just how crazy and unpleasant some of us are. But in particular I want to ask you whether you really believe that it is a fault of the Dutch that they live in a "small" and therefore militarily powerless country? Do you also think that you and I can take some kind of credit for the accident of our having been born in this large and powerful country? If so, you are a fool. I can get as crazy as the best of them. I didn't fault anyone for where they lived. I take no credit for being born here. And you are a fool for reading that into what I said. (I served in the military, too, so don't go there, please.)" How incredibly presumptuous of you. I never go there. |
Rok2id, please, let's stop that firing. Don't open fire, don't return fire, just no fire. There is no need, no threat of any kind. Firing destroys "soul". Now I sound like a preacher. Let's just continue with our exploration of the subject. Which is mysterious, unknown, possibly uknowable and yet quite real. Playing Master copy on Studer 820. Now that's audiophile dream. |