ML......+ all electrostats.(very safe bet) |
Maggies are the best at this that I've heard,but the bonus is they throw real human images The Quads,MBL's and the Ohms of course would get my runerups.The Revel Saloon can get close,so can the Legacy Whispers and the Aerial 10T's,the Totem Arro's are very amazing at this as well especial considering their price and size and they have that great Quad tone,actually all Totems are very good at this Dito for the Silverline Preludes and the Studio Lab Reference 1's both very similar to the Arro's.the Green Mountain Callisto's do very well and the old Oddesey Epiphony designed by Alain Courtae for $600 were absolutely amazing at disapearing based on the old Spica designs,and I cant forget about the Pro Ac Tablelites and the Kef Uni-q designs,Acoustic Energy AE1,BBC Monitors,and the Dalaquest DQ-10's (i know i spelled that wrong). |
Delta Summits from Intuitive Design do this in spades.... |
Chadnliz: Being and owner of the Focus 20/20's, I held the same belief however the Focus HD's surprised me in that regard once I got them, burned them in and placed/cabled them properly. The Focus 20's and the HD's are in the same room and the difference is very noticeable...I'm sure that other speakers do this better however the HD's still pull it off which is a welcome surprise on top of all the things that they do well. |
how about the old stax f81electrostatics? image champs no matter which decade. |
I took delivery of a Supratek Cortese preamp yesterday, and the result is that my system snapped into place. The image is completely free of the box and fully three dimensional.
Speakers are Silverline Sonata III. Amplification is VAC Standard 160 monos or Belles 350A Reference (both are excellent). Speaker cabling is Silverline Audio Conductor. Power cords on the amps are Purist Audio Dominus Ferrox. Power cord on the Supratek Cortese is Volex 17604. |
I think there is a very visual component to that as well. I am, let's say, mildly obsessed with detached soundscapes. The Tidal Contrivas seemed to fit that bill, even more so after having been equipped with Harmonix RF-999MT feet. Now, the Contrivas are large, surely they look elegant and are as slim as they can justifiably be (i.e. not a pencil-style speaker), but they are visually prominent.
So, as Tvad put it somewhere further upstream, was I getting the last 4%? After I gave up on surround some time ago, I had hooked up the TV in stereo mode, and there came my confirmation. The visual center was now, unavoidably, the screen. Sonically, things were happening in the entire room but even if I tried very hard, from where I was sitting I could not identify the large black sculptures that happened to be in the room as well as their source. For anyone with a large screen between the speakers, this may be the acid test.
Karel |
I would include my soundlab m2's that I now have and dunlavy sc3's that I sold to buy the m2's. |
I saw an earlier post claiming the new Legacy Focus HD pulls this off, that would be truely a feat for a large baffle speaker that up till now was one of the worst offenders for knowing exactly where the speaker was, I am not saying it is a bad speaker but you need a slim or atleast minimal baffle to pull this off.......Legacy offers neither and I highly doubt many would agree it can disapear. Gallo, Quad, Vandersteen, Coincident, Totem, and the countless other slim floorstanders and Monitors do this very well but large cabinet speakers just dont measure up in this regard....they have many other strengths to make you smile so it is a trade-off. |
I use my Nagaoka horns facing a rear wall approx 5' away from the wall, speakers 9' apart.I sit probably 7' behind the speakers. The sound is in the space between the speakers and the rear wall and sound does not appear come out from the speakers. Even If sit off axis It still has a good soundstage between the speakers. |
I second Exlibris - MBL 101E, or if your room won't allow them, either the 111 or 116. :) |
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You are far too modest. In any case, congratulations and how do they compare to the VR4's...?
Shadorne (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers)
The Sonata III disappear better (image better), and are more refined in the highs and upper mids. The bass is a bit bloomy and uncontrolled relative to the VR4 Gen III HSE. It's a small, niggling point. The VR4 were more resolving overall...really a reference loudspeaker. My wife and I prefer the appearance of the Sonata III. Each speaker has it's strengths and weaknesses. I'm more apt to forgive a speaker for its bass performance than I am a top end that's too aggressive. So, at this juncture, I prefer the Sonata III overall, but they are not hands-down winners versus the VR4 Gen III HSE, IMO. As I am still experimenting with amplification, pre-amplification and wire, my opinion may very well shift. |
Tvad,
You are far too modest. In any case, congratulations and how do they compare to the VR4's...? |
Mr T, You need a pre-amp with a mono blend curcuit - then you could get all of the music into one place. You could use a mono amp and save tons of space and set up problems that occur only in multi-speaker set ups. Go for it, you'll never look back(wards). I'll bet those old 57's would be perfect in a mono set up. :-) |
hi newbee:
i listen to 2 speakers because some of the instruments emanate from the left speaker and others from the right.
if i listen to the left speaker alone, e.g., i may miss half of the music.
timbre is important to me.
if a tenor sounds like a tenor but comes from the right speaker, i don't mind. |
Congrats on those Silverlines...did you replace the VR4 Gen III HSE or are you adding to your extensive collection?
Shadorne (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers) Extensive collection? I owned the VR4 Gen III HSE for four years, and just recently replaced them with the Sonata III when a pair of Castle Acoustics Howard S2 kept blowing woofer drivers. Hardly an extensive collection.
if you close your eyes or darken a room, it may be difficult to tell whether the music is coming from the speaker(s) or not.
Mrtennis (Threads | Answers)
It may. Or it may not. If it's difficult to detect the loudspeakers, then they are doing their job, IMO...and they are doing an excellent job of imaging "free of the box". That's my goal. it may not be yours. |
At RMAF I heard something no other speaker or set-up ever did, soundstage was sideways wonderful, but it would project the voice (lets say) all the way up front to about an inch from your nose, I could not believe it I actually jumped on my seat when the voice was right in my face (in a good way) It was a show almost of almost circus quality, a friend was with me, he bought those speakers!
This was the Avantgarde room setup by the twins, wow!
Today we both have horns speakers and we are thinking about flying in these guys to help us set-up the speakers to achieve that.
All the Best |
Tvad,
Congrats on those Silverlines...did you replace the VR4 Gen III HSE or are you adding to your extensive collection? |
Mr T, Why do you own two speakers and listen to music in stereo? Usn't that what stereo is all about? No? Then tell us why stereo was developed in the first place or do you just listen with one speaker.
Tvad - Dammed fine speakers you have there. I heard them driven by modest SS stuff. They were very impressive and they image as 'free of the box' as well as any speakers I've ever heard. Bought some Silverlines myself just to remind me why imaging is so important, along with all of the other things they can do better than my old Quads. :-) |
why is imaging so important ?
if the sound of an instrument is relatively free of timbral inaccuracy, what difference does it make if it seems to be projected from a speaker.
if you close your eyes or darken a room, it may be difficult to tell whether the music is coming from the speaker(s) or not.
by the way, does anyone use the term imaging, as applied to live music ? |
I've recently acquired a pair of Silverline Sonata III, and they are wonderfully free-of-the-box. Incredible imaging. As a friend said recently, they image like large two way monitors. |
Meridian M2 which I've owned for over 20 years
and the AP Virgo 111s in my main system.
Avanti 111s even in a crap system.
Cain & Cain Abbeys with my Audiopax which were a real ear opener. Ok only as wide as the speakers were apart but great depth and these really surprised me.
I fancy the Zu Presence but set great store by imaging qualities and have to listen near field - wll they do this?
Suppose I'll have to find out the hard way. |
Rdb001, I got the Duettes, my note was to Tvad. They are an Anthrocite Black (or something like that) and are really a very deep maroon/brown. Almost like the BMW Panama brown metalic in color with a bit more maroon. Just had them delivered and installed yesterday. High WAF level (told her I had to sell two pair of totems to be able to pay for them!!!!;-)
Last night they ran with a Conrad Johnson SS amp. Today I am going to try them with a Pass Labs amp and at some point with a Golden Tube SE 40 amp.
As they were a demo pair, they are already fairly well broken in. I have a bit of corner correction to do in the room in one corner, but they do sound very good. I have not hooked up my subs with them yet, as I want to get a feel as to whether I really need the subs in the subject room (which is not my primary listening room). I also need to get new speaker cable (30 feet!!!! yikes) for them.
Sound better with the screens on in my environment and the tweeter on these speakers is much better than many of the other Wilson speakers (WP/Cub) I have listened to. I will post more in two weeks after more time. |
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Tvad, I also purchased the Duette's (still waiting). What color did you get?
They were very close to the Sophia's and the WP8, better in many ways, and a much better bargain. For me the ease of set-up sealed the dreal. They certainly are "free of the box." I will be running them with Bel Canto Ref1000. The combination is great. |
Tvad,
My Arro speakers are listed at the price you state but include a REL Q 108 sub. The combined price of the Arros speakers and the sub is at less than half of the retail price! I think at least, not sure what the retail on the Arro speakers really is? I believe the REL price is $995 MSRP!
Oh, and I ended up ordering the Duettes, they will be delivered within the next two weeks. New with warranty and dealer installation.
But I was just kidding about the 50% off, I know they are a brand new speaker. It was more of a plea to get em at a great price. Anybody in SW Michigan interested in hearing the Duettes can contact me. Give me a couple of weeks for the installation though. And no, I don't have a $100,000 worth of electronics to drive them, much more common base electronics. |
All planar based, so placement is crucial as is feeding them with high quality amplification...
Tom
www.martinloganowners.com |
Wilson Audio Specialties-any model, but more so with the CUB and Duette speakers. Beautiful pinpoint imaging and boxless sound, stunning performance. If you have the mean$, I highly recommend an audition. |
Salk ht3's - no cabinet colorations at all, stellar imaging
I've also had Von Schweikert Vortex Screens - they also image well and disappear in a room |
Hyperion speakers have a first rate imaging, they are also very easy to drive if it does matter. |
Buy these speakers - if you don't love them, then I will buy them from you (at the regular 50% off list price, of course).
Ckoffend (Threads | Answers) Gosh, and I would only lose $5500 bucks in the process! ;) I see you're asking $1125 for your Arros with stands and beaks. Is the retail price $2250 for these items? Maybe you are joking? I'm beginning to think my VR4 Gen III HSE are the bargains of the decade. |
I too am a sucker for the disappearing speaker that can project a large, defined and believable sound stage. Had you asked me this question a year ago, I would have resonded without doubt that the Totem Mani's can do this as well as anybody (within what I consider to be reasonable price points).
I have of course gone to all Totem speakers as a result of this. I am still a strong believer in Totem speakers and their ability to perform in this type of desired situation. In my mind, the Mani 2s and the Arro models are the best for this, but both are limited to the size of the room they can fill. Yes, I am selling some of these, but still am a very strong believer in this brand and will continue to support and recommend them for a long time.
I have since gone to the Von Schweikert VR4 jr (just right) speakers and feel that they present an excellent stage and do a great job of disappearing. While I have only set these up for about a week, I have been extremely impressed by them. These present a much bigger speaker feel and presentation while still being capable of presenting the questioned features of this thread.
If your budget is less limiting than mine, I would/could strongly recommend the Wilson Duettes. I listened to them two weeks ago in a largish room and they were terrific. At $11,000, in my opinion they may just be the bargain of the Wilson line-up. They were not bright (using Wilson's newest tweeter) and they couldn't hit the absolute bottom of the sound spectrum. They did not congest at high volumes (frequently this is a room issue as much as anything else). Buy these speakers - if you don't love them, then I will buy them from you (at the regular 50% off list price, of course). |
as much the recording as the speaker. |
Totem Forest. With a little attention to setup they are gone! |
Surprised no one has mentioned the Ushers. I have a pair of 6381's which do a very nice disappearing act even in my compromised HT set-up and less then ideal listening room.
I've owned many speakers over the past 30 years and know of none that are a better value than the Usher 6 series (especially on the used market).
They will compete and any many cases, destroy many speakers costing "much" more. They are as transparent, if not more so, then the Maggie 1.6's I owned which were also very good in this area. |
04-20-07: Rgs92
I think the most interesting phenomenon I enjoy is when a musical entity is recorded hard left or right and still the sound seems to come from somewhere external to the drivers or the speaker itself.
That's along the lines of what I'm interested in. Not just an excellent stereo image, but an image that's "free of the box" even when the sound is panned hard left or hard right. |
The DCM TFE200's has some of the best stereo image that I have ever heard.... www.dcmspeakers.com |
I think the most interesting phenomenon I enjoy is when a musical entity is recorded hard left or right and still the sound seems to come from somewhere external to the drivers or the speaker itself. I find this to be true with Kharmas (and before this with Apogee Stages). Do other speakers out there do this? [By the way, I also will add my thanks to Mikelavigne for all the great, insightful posts of his over the years. I always look forward to them.] |
I concur with Bdgregory's mention of Totem Acoustic loudspeakers regarding "transparency". I am running Forest's myself. As others have said, the whole audio hardware chain absolutely affects the final result - not to mention recording quality. From the responses, there's a lot of other good sounding stuff out there to consider. |
Not sure these weren't already mentioned but ACI Sapphire XL's. |
Definitely Audio Physic Virgos, especially when placed along the room's long wall with the listening position set nearfield almost mid room as per AP's recommendation. Unusual setup; astonishing results. |
Peak Consult InCognitos [old style, NOT the X anniversary edition]. |
I just upgraded from B&W 603's to Vandersteen 2CE Signature II's - absolutely amazing. It is as if there are no speakers in front of me, just a wall of glorious sound.
Regards |
I'd second Audiokinesis' vote for the Snell Type A. Not only "was an all-around superb loudspeaker in my opinion", but still is. Type A's can be found, you just have to look for them. I continue to enjoy mine. |
Duke; thank you for the kind comments.
any time there is a speaker thread and you have posted (whether here or AA) i always read your comments to learn from you. i know i'll never really understand speaker dynamics like i'd like to.....but thanks for the always cogent observations and helpful answers. after reading your speaker posts over the years the excellent performance of your speakers at RMAF was no surprise. |
Imaging and the speakers "disappearing" aren't necessarily the same thing in my book - my Spica TC60s produced holographic images with small scale music but on large scale classical or rock - anytime they were pressed - they got congested and sounded like box-like indeed. Any decent speaker, placed correctly, should surely be able to image outside the box.
If we're just talking speakers that are actually "boxes" but disappear I'd certainly have to second various Alon/Nola speakers as well as ProAcs, Audio Physics, Ohms, Shahinians, Rockports...sure I'm forgetting some. Notice that many of these are dipoles or omnipolars.
Of course, then you have the planars and stats - the BIG Maggies, Quads, Sound Labs, Apogees which are not boxes and don't sound like it. Hooray!
Electronics and speaker placement are key to getting most box speakers to disappear. |
I've had two speakers that fit the bill, Audio Physic Virgo IIs and their big brothers the Avanti IIIs.... Absolutly disappear! |
FWIW, I haven't had this problem even with conventional box speakers. Although I am in the very small minority, I listen to all music in surround. With a properly setup surround system, the speakers really disappear. Of course, there are system variable that make them vanish better than others, but surround has been the David Copperfield of speaker disappearing acts. |
Mikelavigne,
Just wanted to say I always enjoy and appreciate your sharing your experiences.
I know you've been the recipient of more than your fair share of pot shots, presumably because some people look for an excuse to find fault with one who has spent a lot of money on their audio system. As I see it, it's all insanity - just to varying degrees. Or maybe it's like criticizing the quarterback because he gets to date the cheerleaders - we'd do it too if we could.
I have learned and benefitted from your sharing your experiences with us. You have been able to try things that many of us have not, so thank you Mike for freely sharing so that we can make better choices with our systems.
Okay, back to our regularly scheduled programming.
Duke |
