...does anyone want to pipe in about my question regarding NOT cleaning new vinyl at all as a choice to minimize noise?Not without Nomex overalls.
Kipdent (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers)
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Hi Kipdent I'm so pleased all seems back on track. The social responsibility to rationality prevailed :-) As to: >>> does anyone want to pipe in about my question regarding NOT cleaning new vinyl at all as a choice to minimize noise? Any opinions or experiences? <<< I'll have a mixed report, and I am still not entirely clear what causes the much different result, but I will share my suspicion. I had more recently bought some new 'Classic Records' at the RMAF. I did the cleaning after I had first listened to them. They sounded very 'smooth' , in fact too smooth, violins had not proper 'grip' (no rosin on the bow etc.) So I went and clean them (I use a Hannl MERS as mentioned earlier). After cleaning I got a shock, the start wax was noisy, there were some more ticks and groove noise about the first 1/4 groove area, plus I could here some ticks that are clearly scratch related. Hells Bells! I had cleaned about 3 and stopped in a panic. had some long discourse with Günter Hannl in Germany about cleaning fluid, his cleaner etc. no explanation evolved. It is but a few day ago, that I decided to give it another try and cleaned some more LPs of that batch I had purchased at the RMAF. AND, you go explain it they sounded clearly better than what happened to the first few that had caused my panic. (Not funny to destroy 30 pop a piece, I say). The batch I had cleaned just now has been played some, but not a lot ---- again they sounded lacking in definition, dynamics. Im sure you know what I mean. After cleaning there was more THERENESS there, no ticks, no added groove noise. My suspicion? It is pretty well documented but now that Classic had press-plant problems some time ago. In fact it was reported to be related to the lip-less mould process. Apparently the lip at the start groove helps with the proper (easier) mould sealing. If there is non like Classics process, if things go wrong some vinyl can bleed in to the start groove area. To make matters worse, I understand, some less trained operators did either cause some mishandling (small, and not quite so small, scratches) and/or did not sort out the minor damaged items for recycle. So, in conclusion and taking the above into account (Classic is reported to have fixed their production problems) cleaning new record most certainly does improve play-back quality YMMV. Lastly, I do get NOS records once in a while. The softener of the inner sleeves always has bled out and produced a kind of sticky, creased, patchy looking pattern on the vinyl. It sounds really horrible and one wash will take it off (usually) and that NOS record looks like fresh out of the press. Greetings, Axel |
What you are hearing are the effects of the mold release coumpounds intermingled with the the vinyl formula used in the pressings. Vinyl is more elastic than understood by many end-user. Michael Fremer's "Tracking Angle" contains a excellent article on LP composition for additional details. The "holy-grail" of LP pressings were the early formula's used used to mix small batches of vinyl for classical recordings. Anyone/any Company that presses LPS in today's world is searching for those formulas. The person that understands vinyl compounds is Martina Schoener , a record cleaning fluid designer who is a paid consultant to Garrard Loricraft Audio. Martina was among several industry-insiders who observed the Steam Cleaning Process along with Terry O' Sullivan, CEO of Garrard Loricraft,as well as,a friend of Pierre Spray, CEO of Mapleshade Records : That person relayed the event to Mr. Spray who used the information as the basis for Phenophile Steam Cleaning Kit now retailed by Mapleshade Records for $150.00. According to Martina, she interviewed many of the retired workers responsible for mixing the compounds. Many were interviewed very late in life and most are now deceased. Martina discovered the formulas were tightly held company secrets. She told me they were rarely committed to paper but instead were orally handed down to others in the trades. The European Trade tradition is different from ours and began to break down in the middle 1950's for ecomomic reasons. Today, no one is really certian what the most exacting formula is comprised of and many chemists are making a good living attempting to reconstruct the "grail". Steam Cleaning provides a way to remove any leaching compound(s). In my first published article/letter to "Listener" I noted the observation that all record cleaning fluids (known to me) leave a veil, I termed a "sonic-fingerprint". The sonic-fingerprint is the artifact/residue of the cleaning process & is present regardless if the fluid is homemade to Mega Buck. The final step to steaming is a steam rinse to remove all residues . Stltrain advocates nerl water rinses. I also recommend using a pure water source ; Peak Battery Water ($3.00 a Gal.) ,however; Michael Fremer has mentioned that Aquafina is a extremely pure water source. No vacuum RCM has proven it can remove a sonic fingerprint. That is a fact. Steam has proven to be extremely effective in removing sonic-fingerprints. I believe that rinses may produce and even better finish to the Steaming process. The above is a short-discourse on why Steam is an effective cleaning agent to vinyl LPS. Steam Cleaning is a process that needs to be followed step by step to get a satisfactory result. Rome was not built in a day & neither can one understand the results of Steam Cleaning without having done so for an extended period of time. Record Cleaning is as much an Art as a Process , all learned and matured by time, much in the same manner as learning to set up a analog front end. |
Axelwahl, thanks for the GREAT response! Very informative. I agree with your Classic Records assessment--their products always seem to be the most problematic when brand new. An interesting aspect of your post is that loose bits of vinyl, maybe even too small to see, can be a real problem on new records, and cleaning MIGHT actually take these bits and rub them into the surface, damaging it. No technique, steam or otherwise, really avoids this risk. I wish quality control were better for these expensive records. The worst one I've come across recently (and surprisingly to me) is the MoFi Sinatra of "Only the Lonely." Huge pieces of vinyl flashing were evident on three copies, and they must have scratched the surface during shipping on all three. I finally gave up and got a store credit. Thanks again--as analog lovers we're just trying to find the best way to preserve and present our precious records. |
crem, i've tried steam cleaning a few lps, found no appreciable audible difference so was pretty disappointed. will devote the next two weeks to cleaning one batch normal and another batch steam and see if i can find a difference. need to get up a decent test sample otherwise no proper conclusion is possible. i'd simply be jumping to confusions! will do three batches of bout 3 lps each and see. whether i finally use steam cleaning or not i'd like to thank you though for all the help and encouragement extended throughout my searching process :) regards |
Don't throw stones at me for asking a dumb question, but do you think it the steam cleaning that you are getting good results with, or that you are in essence rinsing many times over that gets rid of any residue or fingerprint? I ask this due to using a new cleaning fluid for me, from Audio Intelligent, that when using their fluid you can keep applying to remove more and more residue, and then eventually wash with ultra pure water, till in effect there is nothing left behind. I've used many cleaning fluids and so far this is truly the best I've used, and heard. It has sure made a believer out of me. Maybe it's the thoroughness of the process that is giving such good results in either case. |
I know Audio Intelligent products & have spoken to the owner several times. Audio Intelligence products are respected by audio reviewers & many of my audio friends for good reason - They work to reduce many disavantages of record cleaning. Nevertheless, it is my view (supported by actual listening experiments) that all record cleaning fluids leave a sonic fingerprint (some more/some less ) that is only appreciated following steam rinses or water baths. Keep in context that every Institution in the Western World that stores recorded music for future generations supports water rinses. It is my view that steam rinses do the job faster , not that rinses don't provide a potentally smoother finish to the cleaning process. Its a matter of time & I am persuaded that time may be worth the effort. A secondary issue is system transparency. The more you have, the greater the available detail. Unfortunately, many well intended analog front ends have issues either the as result of set-up ,or limits to transparency via system matching. There are several excellent books on the matter. George Merrills "Turntable Set-Up" & Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound" are resources we all should own & use. Many other excellent articles exist on "Tracking Angle" and in back issues of "TAS" , "Stereophile" & "Audio". I am of the view that what you hear is a mix of compromises, some good & some not so good. Without an extensive self-education & subsequent re-education , evaluation and regular re-evatuation, system issues will filter into the listening experience. Nothing could be more true than that in the world of analog. Changes in the weather cause a need to tweek one's turntable & tonearm. Not apprecating those changes can result in slight smearing of mid-range. Phono cartridge suspension's change/age over time, some very quickly. All of these challenges confront a LP listener. If you can't hear certian differences from steaming , so many varables exist that its sometimes a challenge to discern. Re-read the inital reviews of RCMS vs buyer complaints . Its not that RCMS did a poor job , but LPS with a history of 6 , 12 to 20'ish gram tracking weights were impossible to rehab they were so gouged out. Only the inital RCM user did not appreciate that fact. The Record Cleaning Magnets spent years educating the public via the print media at great expense. Its my view that we are repeating history to a degree. As we move forward with new innovative ideas , new challenges crop-up. In a world of "Make-It-Happen-Yesterday" analog is at a distinct disadvantage to digital. No matter what limitations of CDS, they are easy to use & require almost no maintance. LPS are difficult to extract that SOTA sound but when you do , by effort or chance, now that's an experience. The end-user will never get to the "Land of Qz" because it does not exist. With persistence you may see the turrents. |
Changes in the weather cause a need to tweek one's turntable & tonearm. Not apprecating those changes can result in slight smearing of mid-range, Crem1- If you can detect mid-range smearing during changes in the weather you are an audio GOD. I can not even imagine that level of audible acuteness in a bat. You certainly have been blessed. I will read your future posts with a different view, one of reverence. Keep up the good work, |
The notion that changes in weather conditions might reguire some tweaking of one's playback system is not farfetched. The Magnepan Unitrac instruction book/setup guide mentions this possibility with regard to their tonearm. It puzzles me that everyone here gets widely varying results from steaming. I have found it pretty effective in removing dirt, crud, or whatever you want to call it. It doesn't perform miracles and heal damaged vinyl. Also, I have never (thus far) had a problem with labels coming off because of steaming. The only thing I don't like about it is that it is time consuming. |
In my view, tonearms such as the Schroder Reference ($7,500 & up) need to be re-tuned in response to weather changes. I am a fan of Frank's work & consider his tonearms works of Art. With a Schroder , weather changes scream-out to you. After you understand that one can use that as a reference point for many other Tonearms. In my view, the reason so many perfectly splended Tonearms appear on AG has to do with adjustment issues , mal-adjustments with phono cartridges having nothing to do with performace.For instance, Maplenoll Tonearms are air bearing as is the platter. Barometric changes change the alignment of the cartridge & height of the platter. Slight alignment problems "blurr" the delicate sound of a performace. Ms. Lumley was way ahead of her time, (see TAS 1983 & up). The information I outline is far-less available in a hard-rock LP but quite discernable in classical performaces. Z: If you want,God, find religion not 2 channel stereo . Set-up is everything. As for bats they use sonic vibes , our hearing is different. I do enjoy watching them against a Maryland Sky near dusk. I reside next to a Wildlife Sanctuary. Thank you for Honoring Bats. |
One quick follow-up. I have noted seasonal adjustment issues with SME , Rega , All "S" arms & Grace. In my view all tonearms are subject to adjustment issues that affect tonality, midrange-smearing and mis-tracking. The analogy would be air pressure to car tires. All car tires require perodic checks to determine correct air pressure. Subtal changes can not be seen with the eye. A air gauge is used to balance out the air reading for each tire. Wally Kits and other set-up adjustment tools are required to assure the tonearm is operating at the manufactures recommendations. The changes can range all over the spectrum , re-adjustment is required to return the tonearm to optimal operating conditions. Without such adjustments you are flying by the "seat-of-your pants" in analog. When one steams a record , the recording silghtly swells someting measurable in a Lab setting. It is for that reason I always recommend a "rest" period prior to playback for the LP to re-sizes itself. The same is true when one plays a LP. The phono stylas heats the vinyl for a thousandths of a second ever-so-slightly distorting the grove that needs to re-size itself in about 1/2hr. It is for that reason a quick replay of a LP side may sound "smoother" when actually its slightly smearing/blurring delicate details the second time around. The variables in playback are such that even record cleaning using a RCM w/ cleaning fluids may sound "smooth" on a newly cleaned LP when what one is actually hearing is residue of the fluid deep in the grove acting as a filter to the needle as it glides over the grove. It is for that reason some analog'ers perfer "wet playback" that smoothes the sound at the cost of detail. When one over-lays all of these observations its not difficult to recognize why in analog playback is so challenging ... To view the "Turrents of OZ" not just the bricks on the road... Bats 'an all. |
Nickiguy's analysis is spot on. My view for the widely varying results stem from variables such as how the work is performed , the cleaning machines (included or excluded), the use of a record cleaning fluid vs water , as well as, what type of water from Tap to NERL. And I agree that steaming is time consuming. Thankfully, one does not steam with every playback. As for record cleaning fluids, it is my view Audio Intelligence Products and Disc Doctor are examples of superior products available to the consumer. Of course, homebrew is certianly available but only if you know what your doing. Smearing home made goop is no more a benefit than rubbing sand on the groves. In my view, AI & DD fluids do very well is to "lift" the gunk & dispence some in the air & dilute the contaminates. They dislodge some of the sonic fingerprint. In my opinion the only way to remove the sonic finger print is thru Steaming or pure water baths , most likely both. Now, that is time consuming. And lastly an explaniation for the widely varring results ? Some , a few, ain't Steaming tat' all. Their questions or responses do not reflect hands-on experience. They , for-what-ever-reason(s) , comment on what they, in my view, do not know. |
Hi Crem, you're funny... and touche, I suppose... All right then, how do you propose I hear a steamed cleaned record? If we lived in close proximity it would be worth the drive for me to hear the wonder of wonders. Or if I send you a record will you steam it for me? I'm not defending the cleaning method I'm using now, the Audio Intelligent, I'm just saying when I use it I hear nothing but the music flowing out, if it's a good recording/pressing to begin with, much much better than if I hadn't used it at all, that sort of black between the notes reviewers talk about. I'm not against your steaming totally, it just seems like a lot of work when you have a product that seems to be doing a dandy job, why make things harder on yourself? Plus, a friend has done some checking with the Library of Congress, who he defers to on all matters of media, seems to go contrary to your opinion, and offers their own formula for a cleaner. Again, it's not the be all end all, but maybe neither is your steaming. And as for the golf ball, you can chide me all you want. I was warned when I got one some people would make with the cracks. So I gave a short retort. I didn't think I was attacking your steaming method. More like I was bothered by your pontification of it. And, you didn't answer when I asked what your comment was regarding SOTA. If you're using a sota table, then we have nothing further to discuss.... good luck and take care |
Chashas1 : SOTA> State Of The Art. I have been granted Research Credentials at the Libary of Congress. I know a few folks there that preserve early recordings & photographs. I personally own early wax cylinders & photographs. I don't feel the need to support the statements on water beyond what I wrote. My remarks are confined to vinyl not wax or other compounds and are amply supported by doctumention. I'm not a chider & don't pontificate(in my view). I'm guilty of attempting to reform the paradigm with regard to record cleaning. Its worth the effort...Good luck to you. |
Wow, I think my friend will be most envious of your credentials--that sounds like fun. I love early photographs. I have a friend who does paintings from them. Well, who knows, maybe someday if an easy to use steam cleaning machine,that I know won't melt my records,comes to market I'll be one of the first in line. Good luck in your endeavors... (oh, so what turntable do you have?) |
Chashas1 i have to ask who said steaming will melt your records and do you really believe that? Also are you against doing a little work if it will bring you a positive return? And if it does not offend you could offer your age? I dont have any negative thoughts with my questions to you just wondering. Mike |
Chashas1: You appear a brite , brittle person who can't keep their hands from touching the flames. Your comments have nothing to do with steaming . That is troubling . Envey in my religious tradition is an evil that we as believers must refrain from. You show a strain of thinking that doesn't truly appreciate your intelligence, a sign of youth w/o restraint. I respect your acute perception(s) & for that reason only I will answer your final question. I enjoy re-designing Maplenoll Turntables & Tonearms. I design the air delivery systems & use my of my own air scrubers design but, alternatively, Schroder arms & AC Raven Turntables are available to me that I enjoy & experiment with often with other fanatics. I own several other tables but that is of no importance. I have learned how to tune analog set-ups as well as anyone. That's the difference. I depend on no particular dealer or manufacturer , unless they offer. And you, Noble Black Knight from where do your ideas dwell ?? How can you imagine melting LPS on a thread that has grarnered more views than almost every thread posted? Where does that logic come from?? Personally , enjoyed the OZ, brick , turrent & bats better. |
Hi Mike, I know steam from a kettle or iron will burn you, and definitely make a record bend--have you ever seen those bowls-whatever they make from vinyl? A friend gave me one as a Xmas present, I wasn't that impressed. So, I'm not sure what you are using to steam with, but steam in general is fairly hot, and I wouldn't chance it on my vinyl. Maybe your steam is more like a soft mist? like a vaporizor? Hell no to the second question, you should see some of the whacky things I have done for the quest of better sound. I've treated boards with larch varnish for better sounding walls, I've bolted birch boards on my wood floors to give a more secure footing for my speakers, I've spent zillions of hours auditioning equipment and cables. I've tried all sorts of room treatments. I think I've done more than a little for my positive returns. lol I'm a little younger than you. So, do you steam or clean? Ah, I see you have a vpi cleaner. If still using, what cleaning fluids? and what have you tried? Keep on that positive train.... |
Readers: In my part of the US, "Aqunafina" is on sale. 24 bottles equaly'ing near 3.16 Gal of pure water is being sold for $3.99 in discount houses & $4.99 in SuperMarkets. "AQ" is reportly near 99% as pure a Nerl water that reportly costs about $80-$100 per 5 Gal inc. shipping as opposed to the price of "AQ" in your area. Just a mention. |
Actually, NERL Type 1 Reagent Grade water is available for 55.00 dollars per 5-gal container, delivered to your door. http://www.opticsplanet.net/casco-nerl-water-reagent-grade-9800-5.html I have no dog in this fight, but if you think that 'Aquafina' has gone through the same filtering cycle as medical grade Type 1 water-or anything even close-you're sadly deluding yourself. Not matter what Mikey Fremer says. In fact, I immediately analyze with great skepticism *anything* he says. If I didn't, I'd be using this ridiculous cleaning regimen found on his website. http://www.musicangle.com/feat.php?id=54 |
I checked out that site from Fremer and was amazed that someone would go to those extremes to clean a record. A question for you extreme steamers. How many times do you play the record between this procedure? I can't imagine it is after every play so what do you do before playing between steams? I don't steam my new vinyl, I think that something is wrong if I have to go to that extreme on a new platter, although i do clean them as there are usually some minor stuff on them.I do steam my records if I get a used one with some built up gunk. That is usually the last time my record will see steam as I keep them pretty good with other less invasive cleaning methods that also require much less time. I'll be damned if I am going to spend more time cleaning a recored than listening to it. That's were I draw the line. |
Johnbrown : You claim to have no part of the dogfight but here you are. Who are you ? A chemist ? A doctor? Maybe someone in the audio biz? Your views are so ironclad. I find it so amazing that folks (like your self) will incriminate a process designed to enhanse the listening experience ,yet, spend thousands of thousands of hard earned dollars to be in analog without a wimper. Instead of directing fiefs do some homework. If you have not deciated time & effort to mastering steam cleaning how can you be so over-reaching? I should never be surprized at human nature. Galileo was in his time imprisoned , his family disgraced , his daughter forced to become a Nun , just because his scientific studies(using a self-designed telescope) concluded the Sun was at the centre of the "universe" not the Earth. I have a feeling your near 60 years old. Something happens to grey-beards , they go white. No shades of grey , just white. The whole discussion on Aqunafina was centered on finding a cheap reasonable alternative water source that is reasonablely clean, according to EPA standards. According to the Aqunafina web site they make some interresting statements.Johnbrown the object of this thread is to forward Steam Cleaning , not debate its merits with non-users. I'm done. Have a good evening. |
Man, crem1, you're nothing if not cranky. This is a relatively open forum, I have as much right to be here as anyone, and my views are just as valid as yours. Re-read my post-all I disputed was your cost figure for Type 1, reagent grade water, and wanted your fan club to realize that 'Aquafina' is *not* a substitute. Again-Aquafina may be fine for your purposes, but it's not even in the same league purity-wise as Type 1, reagent grade water. I don't use your process, but I'm sure it's fine for whomever wants to do it. But I *do* use NERL Reagent Grade Type 1 water for my final, RCM rinse and it's made a big difference in the sonics of my records. For the record, I wouldn't even consider substituting a locally-bottled 'pure' water like Aquafina for a water that is so refined it could be used to perform dialysis. Oh, yeah, I also cautioned against taking Mikey Fremer on face value. Not that he's necessarily wrong, but he's also not above reproach. Caution is advised... If those two comments were enough to rub you the wrong way, I apologize. And I'm looking forward to seeing your upcoming tome-'Steam-Cleaning Records:How I Changed The World As We Know It' on the NYTimes bestseller list. via con dios |
Crem- Sending your personal e-mail through the Agon steam cleaning thread? Haven't you chided others for moving off topic? Then again, I can see how you would mistake this for your own. As I asked before and hoped that you would chime in. Do you steam clean your records after every play or 10 plays? How often do you clean each record? JB said that I would be all right just cleaning 1 time initially and then maintaining with a brush thereafter. Wondering what others frequency of steaming is? Smile Crem and remember- the only compliments that are worthwhile come unsolicited |
Z: Sending personal email had nothing to do with it. I previously made mention of the matter so I wanted to assure regular readers that Kipdent did all possible to honor repayment. Thank you , Kip. As for the JB's sniping on water matters here are the facts, Nerl Water: The cost for a 1/2 Gal.of Casco-Nerl Water , Reagent Grade I , is $55.00 USD or $112.00 USD for 1 Gal. v.s. 3.16 Gal. of Aqunafina for $4.00 to $5.00 USD. Published specifications for Casco-Nerl Water as to;boiling point,specific gravity,flash point,vapor pressure,vapor density ,solubility & evaporation rate; all were found to be "essentially like water" or "same as water" per the standards published in CFR. Title 29, sec.1900-1200. The only differences I noted in specific resistance @ 0.2 micron for Nerl v.s. 2.0 micron for Aqunafina. Aqunafina standards are 500x lower than the EPA standard for drinking water from springs. As for soluable materals both Water's report to be near zero or zero in all published & measurable parameters . I consulted with the Supervisor for McCormick Spice Industries on the subject of water purity. He states it is common practice in Industry to maintain water purety at or to lower #'s than reagent grade as to keep flavors at certian consistent levels when used as a spray to coat corn or potato chips as for two of hundreds of examples in food. I consulted with a Supervising Nurse at a Pa.Kidney Dialysis Centre who said Reagent Grade water is used in the process because purity is warrented against lawsuit. Ok, so what's the difference between Nerl & Aqunafina waters ? So far,certification is done constantly to Federal guidelines for Nerl & packaging to medical standards. I have requested further clarification from Aqunafina to explain what differences do exist and if my assertion of 99% is correct or near correct. Z: I have posted this many times, I rarely (if ever) find a reason to steam clean beyond the initial steam . I agree that changing the inner-seleve & sealing the LP in a poly bag is essential to keeping a record as clean as possible. I formerly used a Hunt Brush but currently use a Destatic Brush found in Audio Catalogs for $30.00. I am also considering a whole house duct cleaning & electro-dust filtering system to reduce home contamination. But, so far I have never found a demand to give a LP a second steam cleaning. I will not rule out a steam rinse but have yet to do so. My viewpoint differs from some industery types that feel Steam Cleaning will never be profitable to promote unless conducted 3 to 4 times per year per LP. I think that is unfounded. As to ho72: U so Funny ... Why build a vaccum system when one only needs to house a "Little Green Machine" , a complete system easily adapted to being the heart of a RCM for $25'ish used on Ebay. Hee, hee easy money to all. |
I steam cleaning as a part of a cleaning regime i use once. Since I buy used records from a variety of places and many times the records are pretty grundgy, i find the cleaning regime works well to consistently clean records. I have used traditional regimes including DIY formulations to commercial cleaners(disk doctor, etc). Steaming vs nonsteam cleaning regimes works well imo for most common cleaning applications. I believe the quality of the rinse water is critical as is the quality of water used in the steaming process. Again, I clean once (whether steaming or not), then rely on quick brush (microfiber) prior to playing. As far as steaming vs nonsteaming, some records i have cleaned via typical methods just did not get the groove 100% cleaned the first time. It was not every record, but those that needed extra attention. (Most of us have brought one or two in this type of condition). anyway, since i have included steaming as part of my cleaning regime, i have not had any that i thought about recleaning. Again, this is my experience only. |
Amazing... First, your "facts". You say: "The cost for a 1/2 Gal.of Casco-Nerl Water , Reagent Grade I , is $55.00 USD or $112.00 USD for 1 Gal." Now, here again, is the link from my post above where one-anyone-can buy a 5 gallon container of NERL Type 1 Reagent Grade water for 55.00 delivered to your door. I'll do the math for you-that extrapolates to 11.00 per gallon, *not* the 112.00 a gallon that you insist on. No matter how many times you say that NERL Reagent Grade Type 1 water costs 112.00 a gallon does not make it a "fact". Yes, you'll need to do some work to verify this assertion: you'll need to *click on the following link*. Good luck. http://www.opticsplanet.net/casco-nerl-water-reagent-grade-9800-5.html As for consulting someone at a 'spice' company to discuss water purity, that's...interesting. I'm sure you could call lots of folk in various and sundry industries and eventually find someone to agree with you, if for no other reason than to get you off the phone. And did you ask your nephrology nurse if, in a pinch, she would substitute Aquafina for dialysis patients? Let's just assume that's a "no". Say, here's a fun article about Aquafina: http://www.the-signal.com/news/article/12435/ Which brings us to a salient point-Aquafina is a Pepsi product, produced at your local bottling plant because it's cheap and easy, and saves on shipping charges. However, for that reason and because there is no government oversight, it's actual quality is dependent on who's cleaning the machinery, changing the filters, checking the final product, etc. on any given day, at any given plant across the country. For that reason alone, I'm willing to pay my 11.00 a gallon for my NERL water. My five gallon investment will last me years, and hundreds, if not thousands, of records. Others may not be willing to spend that much. *That's fine with me*. Anyone here can use ditch water for all I care-and simply because M. Fremer suggests something doesn't mean it's true. BTW-where did you read that Mikey steam cleans his records? Another curious "fact". Finally, please read this slowly and carefully: I don't want to usurp your Rightful Place as 'King of the Steam Cleaners'. I don't, and won't, steam clean my records for various reasons, so I have no desire to be the big fish in this very, very small pond. Whatever it is, it's all yours, but if I see something that I know is incorrect in your posts, or anyone's, I'm going to bring that error to the attention of anyone following the thread. For anyone who wants to learn about water purification from an actual expert, there's a great post right here on A'gon that will answer more questions than you probably want to ask. Link below... via con dios http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1132333988&read&keyw&zzpure=water |
Johnbrown: I do respect the fact you do a tad of homework. You must agree that according to the tests results ,available for public viewing ,the waters are closely aligned. Most respectfully, you are also fail to respect another important fact ; many , many LP owners are Steam Cleaning with excellent results . What you bring to the table, is your prevailing view not to steam clean. Ok, I got it. But we are "Steam Cleaning 2". As for sharks in small ponds, what are you thinking? This whole word world started for me in 2000 when I responded to a issue of "listener" that detailed the cleaning preferences of 14 known Audio Reviewers here & across the pond. 13 used vaccum RCMS & one did nothing but blow breath upon the record surface. This was the first time anyone detailed (in print) "Steam Cleaning" & nothing has been the same. The phone started ringing & invites to speak at Audio Groups & Audio Manufactures hasn't diminished. JB, I've learned a lot. I saw what I called "my gift" to analog'ers turn into a business for some , igniting discussions on sonic fingerprints that led to reformulations of many products. Am I an insider , no way! But, I do sit at the table at times with dozens of audio designers & receive emails from around the world on the Steam Cleaning topic . I have been published in the Audio print world several times & I even got a "thumbs-Up" in the "2003 Recommendations issue of Stereophile". Not bad for having ideas. JB, I'm out to inform , to change to paradigm in regard to Steam Cleaning , simply , because Steam Cleaning works. (Z: I know how much you can't stand self promotion , don't write , I'll do it anyway.) As for the news article, it is my understanding the reporter failed to follow-up that the water was not the issue. As for micro-contamination, even Reagent Grade water makers make no claim beyond manufacture & shipping that the product is Reagent Grade 1. As for your assertion that reagent water is certified , spot-on. Aqunafina is tested daily but my understanding It is not certified daily. I did re-review the web site ; I apparently did not fully read the shipping description,$112.00 is for 4 gallons. But,that does not change the fact that the waters appear closely related in purity but a wide gap appears in price.As for the water sources & filtering processes, you are misinformed, they are closely aligned. As for who I spoke to in regard to water issues, spice makers consume huge quanities of pure water and must comform to Government inspection & policy . JB, should you take 8-10 hours to read both SC threads you will find references to several interviews I have conducted & the Water Thread that we both recommend. I respect the fact you are willing to pay $11.00 per Gal. for water. Respect our right to determine if that is the only alternative. One recommendation, don't be so cheeky . Spend a few bucks get your self a Handheld Household Steam Cleaner & SC your LPS using Reagent Grade 1 to Steam & Rinse. You just might become a Steamer! Cheers! Go in good health & peace. |
You are not looking in the right places. The 3/2003 Recommended issue contains a thumb photo of a steamer in the border . I recommended that steamer to Mr. Fremer who months earlier published an article recommending the process to readers for dirty LPS. That article was a result of his interest in my comments in "Listener". We discussed the merits of steam via email for months prior to publishing. The thumb was discrete but nonetheless support to the cleaning method recommended earlier to readers. Later, in 2006 he included my views in his 2 part article on record cleaning. All the articles are copyrighted & can not be posted without permission that Stereophile grants that for a fee I feel no need to pay. What do you care ? You don't give a tinkers damn(ol'english) about steam cleaning. Do you. |
" I have been published in the Audio print world several times & I even got a "thumbs-Up" in the "2003 Recommendations issue of Stereophile" Crem- Would you provide links to these various publications. I looked through Stereophiles 2003 Recommendations Issue and could find no mention of steam cleaning. What a ride these last few years must have been for you, congratulations! |
You know what I learned today? I have friends , true friends who can not wait to read my crem's. You warm the cock'els of mein heart. Really you do. Chashas none , err Has 1 , you be such a crem'er & that goes for Zen .. Master B ... No , No Zenblaster, yes zenbleater, yes, yes my friend(s). Only today I got a call from over-yonder. Its been proposed we have a "Zen & 1" party early next year following the CES, extracting all the friendly zappers you write to be read aloud by my other friends in the industry. You guys have a following ... My how goood you make me feel. But I confess to one little problem , naughty, naughty me. I do make mistake in giving you the details ... err business ... Please, Please read "Listener", Hi-Fi & Music Review Jan/Feb 2002, P 10 , "And It Makes A Fine Gift" : My response to the LP-Cleaning Essays & my "challenge" to the Audio writers . Thereafter, Michael Fremers 2003 article on the Handheld Hotshot 350A , a picture of which was printed as a"thumb" in "Stereophiles" 4/3/03 or (04) ," Recommended Components 2003" about 3 to 6 pages in to the components section, on R.H.S. Now chashasn'tany ,please read the issue & tell your readers what is printed under the thumb ... Or perhaps Zen has the issue & can do the job. Remember, don't be lazy find the exact issue read it & report back. But ,FRIENDS, who could forget??? "Stereophile" Jan/2006 , "All quiet on the Vinyl Front, Part 2,P37 !!... Sorry, I get sooo excited knowing your eyes are glued to the screen ... Ha Ha , just a good natured Got YA ? ,no,no but I got you. Hee, Hee. Now don't it make you feel good you have so many Euro-Readers in stiches ??? Cheers! |
