I recently completed a several year quest to acquire a new cartridge. This quest was basically a major PITA and a nightmare!
Why? Well let’s take a look at what will be in store for all cartridge buyers’ in the US...and possibly other countries as well..IF they are seeking a top flite cartridge , like I was.
Firstly, and here’s where a big part of the problem lies: You will typically be unable to audition any cartridge under consideration...certainly not in your own home and more often than not, at your dealers either.
Then we have the fact that these products are closely monitored for who and whom can act as a dealer...which is then severally restricted by territory and distribution. We then add that the pricing is very well controlled...CAN WE SAY PRICE FIXING...which in most states is an illegal practice...but seems to be the rule here.
Let’s begin with my story...and then I am hoping that members will chime in here with their thoughts and probably also their own ’horror stories’....
About three years ago, I decided to acquire a cartridge that would replace my aging but still ok Benz Ruby 2... I wanted a cartridge that would surpass that Benz in most areas...and one that would be priced at about $3-$5K. A lot of money to be spending on this piece of gear...or so I believed.
At the time, I was considering the following models....Benz LPS MR, Koetsu Urushi and Rosewood Platinum and the Lyra Kleos, Delos, a EMT, the Kiseki Purpleheart, Air Tight ( entry level model at the time..cannot remember what it was called) an Ortofon A90--and a Transfiguration Proteus--lastly one of the ZYX models. After some research, i discovered that the Ortofon’s, the Zyx’s and the Transfigurations wouldn’t work with my set up --due to too low an output by the respective cartridges for my all tube phono stage. So this left the Kiseki, the Koetsu’s, the Lyra’s and the Benz’s...and possibly the Air Tight model.
Circumstances changed and my cartridge buying escapade was put on hold...until a few months back. In the few years since my last foray, I find out that Benz have basically gone out of business ( again!!) and so has Transfiguration. Meanwhile, the Van Den Hul line has come into the US again...this time with a new distributor. The Zyx line has totally been updated and the Lyra line is now more available than before...at least in theory. The Koetsu are now handled by Music Direct...who have essentially doubled the pricing across the board! Oh, i forgot, the Lyra line has increased by about 25% across the board ( i don’t think inflation can account for this!!) So where to start auditioning --the answer...nowhere! Instead I am supposed to rely on various dealers enthusiastic recommendation for these products...except for the fact that one dealer tells me that Koetsu’s are the best thing since mothers milk- and the other tells me that Koetsu’s are horrible with all the faults under the sun...( at least the ones that are in my budget..see above!) Can I hear any of these for myself...either in my system, or at the respective dealers...heck NO! ( and don’t think this type of scenario/ behavior isn’t consistent for other brands as well!--irrespective of whether the dealer(s) carries said brand or not!).
Here I am left with the choice of dropping several thousand dollars on a product that a) has no ability to be heard in my own system..therefore having no clue as to the results that I will get, b) has absolutely no return policy c) can be easily damaged by myself or others in the case of incorrect mounting to the tonearm...and lastly...and this is the one that really annoys me the most: I must shop for these products at a very limited amount of vendors who all are naysaying their competitors and acting extremely unprofessionally in the process. ( Do i really have to talk to the prospective rep for the line in order to determine the compatibility of the cartridge under question with my arm, the reasoning behind the asked price, where the dealer is that should be selling me the piece in question ( so as not to cross territorial lines) and on and on!!)
Then we have this little bonbon...The damn Japanese sourced cartridge(s) is available on several Japanese web sites at a price that is usually 50 -60% of the retail price here in the USA!! And that price in Japan is still at FULL RETAIL! ( Yes, I know it cost a ton of money to ship these things from Japan to here ( since they weigh a ton), LOL).
Where does this leave the US consumer in regards to the acquisition of a top flite cartridge...IMO the answer is between a hard place and a rock..You either pay through the nose and get totally ripped off by the likes of Music Direct and the various small independent reps in the US for these cartridges, or you takes your choice and risk buying from a grey market vendor abroad...but at a fraction of the price! BTW, mysteriously most of the top flite Benz cartridges continue to be very available from a vendor in China who seems to have cornered the market?? What’s up with this??
I can go on and about this journey, as I have just began to scratch the top of the heap in this story, but let’s hear from you guys as to your experiences and thoughts.... Was your top flite cartridge acquisition an equal nightmare, or was it something else?
In my case, back around 1980, when I switched into moving coils I managed to listen to the Dynavector Ruby and the Accuphase AC-2, both of which had been judged neutral-sounding but "musical" by TAS, and finally purchased the AC-2. Two years later I bought two more (used) as backups as audiophiles abandoned them to follow Harry's "latest and greatest and more expensive" cartridges. I knew I would never upgrade my cartridge further, and never have.
Two incidentals: in today's dollars the AC-2 would fall around $1800 and the Dynavector Ruby a bit over $2000. So you might want to consider $2000 as a reasonable benchmark for getting a top-flight MC cartridge. And secondly, I still go to dozens of jazz and chamber and orchestral concerts a year. I often listen with my eyes closed, as I do when listening to my system at home. I get the same listening satisfaction from both. I'm not sure a cartridge can deliver more than that.
Excellent post Harrylavo.
I agree. The Accuphase AC2 is a seriously good cartridge. I bought one online a few months ago that was missing a stylus but otherwise appeared to be in very good condition in the photos. Picked it up for next to nothing and then had Andy Kim fit a Namiki boron cantilever with Microridge stylus on it and rework the suspension (if it indeed needed it).
So I have about $600 U.S. into this cartridge and it will probably be the last one I own. I'll simply retip it every 2000 hours or so. Should last me a very long time.
I've had pretty good luck rebuilding/retipping lesser cartridges in the past and took a flyer on this one. Alternatively, in a new cartridge I probably would have just popped for the Audio Technica ART 9. But the Accuphase piqued my curiosity based on what I'd read about it and as a low impedance design was a very good fit with my phono stage.
I realize that vintage (either in MM or MC) or rebuilding is not for everyone or at least the feint of heart, but that is where the big value is in the cartridge market now with prices escalating as they have in the past 5 years or so.
Even the Accuphase 5 was over $4000 when it was current; the new Accuphase 6 appears to be that or a bit more. And the Dynavector SV1-S and SV1-T are $5600 and $9500 respectively.
I haven't read every post in this thread, but I'd like to add my own perspective to the issue. First, their is no "best" cartridge. Only one that keeps you satisfied with the music you listen to, and as long as you can keep the "time to upgrade" demon in check. But that still doesn't address the "how can I chose" issue.
That "how can I chose" issue has been with us forever, even in the seventies. It is one of the reasons Harry Pearson's The Abso!ute Sound magazine took off like a missile ..... Harry had been an environmental reporter, attuned to the real word and balanced reporting. Harry also had a superb ear, the ability to describe what he heard in words with a developed (with Gordon Holt) vocabulary, and access within a few years to virtually every cartridge then on the market. When you decided to buy a cartridge that Harry had reviewed, you still might not like it, but at least you had an idea beforehand as to "what sound" you were buying. You also got a lot of information to help that choice ..... tone arm mass reommendations, VTA recomendations, etc. There were several reasons why this worked. Initially Harry's credibility was raised because he accepted no advertising, and even when this policy changed later, for a period he would only accept dealer (not manufacturer or distributor) advertising. Secondly, he developed a cadre of also-respected reviewers and included second and third opinions on all the stuff Harry really liked (or disliked) as a reality check. And finally, the magazine included a lot of listener feedback, which often was more in support of the assessments Harry made (after laying out their own money) than in opposition.
Now Harry was without his flaws, and he was probably the originator of Audio's "if its more expensive, it most likely is better" mentality once he heard the Koetsu (which he did not describe as accurate, but did fall in love with it's strengths.) The problem with this: by the time the next "great cartridge" arrived, the original had been shipped off to other reviewers for commentary, and sometimes back to the distributor from which it came. So he did not do many direct comparisons, and after awhile fell into the trap of believing he could remember accurately enough to declare "this one better than that (past) cartridge, in this or that respect." Such might or might not have been true, but over time it was likely if the new cartridge was more expensive, or more exotic, it was given the benefit of the doubt.
Initially, Harry and I did share a belief (which I was why I came to play a minor role in the first eight issues) that comparatives could only take you so far and that attending live musical events (lots of them) was the only thing that could attune you to what was present or not present in the cartridge or other component under review. In addition, of course, to only changing one thing at a time.
In my case, back around 1980, when I switched into moving coils I managed to listen to the Dynavector Ruby and the Accuphase AC-2, both of which had been judged neutral-sounding but "musical" by TAS, and finally purchased the AC-2. Two years later I bought two more (used) as backups as audiophiles abandoned them to follow Harry's "latest and greatest and more expensive" cartridges. I knew I would never upgrade my cartridge further, and never have.
Two incidentals: in today's dollars the AC-2 would fall around $1800 and the Dynavector Ruby a bit over $2000. So you might want to consider $2000 as a reasonable benchmark for getting a top-flight MC cartridge. And secondly, I still go to dozens of jazz and chamber and orchestral concerts a year. I often listen with my eyes closed, as I do when listening to my system at home. I get the same listening satisfaction from both. I'm not sure a cartridge can deliver more than that.
so if I am able to buy the very same cartridge at retail for 1/2 the price in Japan and the US dealer is asking for twice that price here in the states, having shipped over the cartridge at some enormous shipping price,(if you believe that) that doesn’t strike you as a rip off!
Official distributor will not ship overseas if there is another official distributor in your country. This is the basics of the manufacturer & distrubutor deal. Also you can not be a distributor if you don't buy certain amount of cartridges (actually a lot of them). Manufacturer can not ask all the distributors worldwide to sell for the same price, custom fees and taxes are all different from country to country. I'm not sure why do you think the price in Japan (where the cartridge is made) and a price in USA or in Germany must be the same?
There really is something to be learned from threads like this one. The entertainment value, for an audiophile, is through the roof!Tell me you did not laugh, or scoff at least a half dozen times as you read the insights/drivel posted??? So it is all good. What a big happy family... And like any family, the squabbles.. oh.. the squabbles... LOL
Out of all the reading I've done, I don't believe I've gained any knowledge; what truth that has been revealed amounts to "So what"; that's the way the game is played, run with the big dogs or stay at home.
@br3098 Sure, Mr. Dealer you can always start your own thread about how easy it is to sell high priced cartridges to less than sophisticated folks who are only too happy to buy anything from you...so long as the price is higher than what their neighbor paid! No reason to come back here again.
Who ever said that capitalism requires parity of pricing across international markets? Better to forget about cartridges and gripe with the US pharmaceutical industry about their Canadian and Indian pricing strategies, which undercut domestic pricing in accordance with local supply/demand. This thread has become a troll exercise.
@herman I guess we will have to agree to disagree. In my books IF someone pulls the wool over your eyes, then that is a rip off! How often do you believe that the seller’s of these Japanese cartridges disclose the fact that they are readily available in the Japanese market for 1/2 or less of what they are asking here in the States? What you are describing as a rip off, sounds like fraud to me.
Davey, you don't understand what a rip off is. A rip off is when you pay for one thing and get another. You got cheated, swindled, etc. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the object is worth what you paid for it as an objects' worth is solely determined by what you or someone else is willing to pay.
As long as you agree to a price for an object, you understand what this object is, the seller accurately describes it, and the seller delivers this object after you pay for it, nobody gets ripped off.
If I offer you dead rat for $100 and you know you are buying a worthless dead rat, then you will not get "ripped off." You are a fool for spending that much for something worth much less or nothing at all, but you got exactly what you paid for.
@herman so if I am able to buy the very same cartridge at retail for 1/2 the price in Japan and the US dealer is asking for twice that price here in the states, having shipped over the cartridge at some enormous shipping price,(if you believe that) that doesn’t strike you as a rip off! Plus, that’s assuming the distributor here is paying retail in Japan, which they may not be... it could be wholesale there. i just question where your comfort level lies with this stuff, but I now have an idea.
daveyF, a rip off is when someone offers something for sale and misrepresents what it is. If I offer you a Rolex and what I sell you is a cheap imitation then I ripped you off. If I offer you a Rolex at full retail + 20% because it is a rare watch, and you agree to buy it , then no matter what anybody thinks about the value you got for your money, you got exactly what what you intended to buy and that is not a rip off.
Is a night at the Waldorf Astoria worth $600 when you can stay at Motel 6 for $59? Is a bottle of Opus One wine worth $300 when you can get a bottle of red for $3? Is the Rolex worth $30K when you can get a Timex for $25 that probably keeps better time?
getting fools to part with their money is not ripping them off as long as you are not deceiving them.
It sounds like a joke when a buyer of $5-15000 cartridge can't even mount it himself. If a buyer have zero experience with cheaper cartridges then why this buyer is looking for such expensive toys ? It's absurd.
@daveyf - you do like to post provocative matter, don't you? I don't regard the "high-end cartridge" pricing as reasonable, but I also don't think there's much we can do about it. The prices in Japan for cartridges from that country are, I believe, pretty much what the importer here in the States pays- the rest is mark-up for the middlemen- the distributor, and the retailer. I doubt very many people pay full retail for a top tier cartridge, but even at a discount, a cartridge with a 10-15k retail price is obscene. So, what are the alternatives? Beer budget, like the Hana, or lower priced models within a line you like? Retips by someone other than the factory, e.g., Peter at Soundsmith? MM or MI cartridges? I get that you were not looking for advice, and that your post was more in the nature of a rant, but that said, why snipe at folks who are offering alternatives? We are all in the same boat. We either pay the freight or find an alternative. I suspect if you get Jonathan Carr on here, he'll tell you these things --at least the top tier ones using unobtanium materials-- have a very low production, are in many cases made by ancient Japanese craftsmen who hand make each piece, and that the market for them is relatively limited. Whether or not you believe that, I don't know that there is much you can do, other than go gray market, retip or change your cartridge preference. It is true that you can't meaningfully hear a cartridge other than a fly-by at a dealers, but i have had a dealer in the past who insisted I would like an Airtight over a Lyra; he brought it, installed it, and I agreed. (In at least one other instance, he brought over a piece and I didn't think it bettered my existing piece and I nixed it). You pay for that service, one way or the other. (Which is why some people will take whatever risk exists with the gray market and others won't- wanting to know that they have support if something goes awry). My only observation and this is based on knowing you a bit from What'sBest, etc., is that taking shots at people and "LoL'ing" isn't exactly constructive. But, that's your choice.
@alwynlarryv Your post made me laugh out loud! Are you certain that these folks are doing this! Seems that you are, LOL.
Let's not talk about margins here....as lewm stated, well maybe we should just a little- as this is my thread... Let me state again what one of my good friends, who also happens to be a well known a'phile reveiwer/writer stated a few years ago about a lot of audio cables....the mark up there is ONLY 800%!! Which means that the rest of audio industry is trying their best to catch up asap, LMAO!
Offering something for sale and finding people who are willing to pay the price is not a "rip off." It is capitalism at its finest. It doesn't matter that the cost of materials is much lower than the selling price or the mark up is very high, everyone has the option to buy it or not. If you think it is a reasonable price, you can afford it, and you want it, then buy it. If you don't fit any of those categories then move on and quit whining about it.
Something (anything) is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it. Pissing and moaning about the price of something you can't afford or don't see the value in is just that... pissing and moaning. Move on. Pontificating about it here or elsewhere is a waste of time.
I think people who are willing to pay what I consider to be the highly inflated price of a Harley Davidson are wasting their money, but I don't think ill of the company or the dealers for how they are profiting, or think ill of the buyers who somehow feel justified in paying what they are asking. I personally feel that the price of fine jewelry is way above what it is worth so I don't buy it even though I can afford it, but I don't judge those who do buy it or sell it.
And one final note to those complaining that a dealer makes a profit, which is directly related to the OP. One reason that he can't find a dealer where he can audition is that the vast majority are gone because even with what I consider to be a reasonable mark up, they couldn't make enough to keep the doors open. My little town (about 100,000 people) had multiple dealers back in the day. Now we have Best Buy. Most people (including me) abandoned the local dealer for a better deal on the web. We are the reason we have no local dealers... think about it.
I understand the pain of buying at full price and do my buying used for the most part I have purchased some great cartridges such as Benz Lp, Van den hul Frog, and recently a Audio Technica Art 9 I paid between 700 and 1200 and they sound and play great. There is definitely a risk in doing it this way and you can’t audition them but Resale is always an option if you don’t like the sound on your rig
If you are a serious and well healed potential buyer of a $10,000 cartridge or a $50,000 turntable or, god forbid, a tonearm, believe me, there IS a dealer out there who will get on an airplane and fly even to your desert island in order to demonstrate such products. I know personally of such a customer (who is my neighbor here in the DC area), and his "dealers" (plural) fly to DC from the West Coast, or drive down from NYC, in order to do demos in his home. But they know he has done business with them in the past. Thanks to my neighbor, I have gotten to hear some megabuck products on demo at his home and sometimes in his ever evolving system. As occasionally is the case with Darwinian evolution, audio evolution can go in both directions.
Alwyn, No one wants to talk about scale or value, because that is not the subject of this thread. Yet you are not the first person to bring it up; so in fact some people DO want to talk about scale or value, regardless. It's tiresome.
Also, If you can afford a $5000 cartridge, buy cheap airfare to a town with a dealer who will demonstrate what you seek. Schedule your visit with a concert, etc.
Here is one thing I have learned, surprisingly from Yamaha dealer training: Never buy anything from a dealer who badmouths his competitors products. It means he is too lazy to learn what is good about his own, or like many sales people, has dealt with companies such as Yamaha Powersports. I learned this by listening to the Yamaha reps who had nothing but lies to tell about Sea Doos (We sold both). A quick example: SeaDoos are not at all reliable, like Yamahas, because their compression is so much higher, creating more stress for similar horsepower. Fact: Like everyone but Yamaha, Sea Doo Measures compression from the bottom of the piston stroke to the top. Yamaha measures it from the opening of the exhaust port to its close, about 2/3 of a stroke.
I used to deal with Audio by Caruso in Miami. He would hold my check until an agreed upon time, by which I would keep the product or return it for my check. He did this the first time we met. I was given a time, buI did not even know he was not cashing my check until he handed it back to me. There are good dealers
If a dealer wants to make a couple or few thousand on you for a stupid cartridge, he should set it up in his home, if necessary.
BYW, My neighbor was a rep for several high end brands, including B&W. He sold me whatever I wanted at his cost, exactly half of retail. Very few, if any Asian companies use margins like this. Buy from the dealer who want works for your business, or buy Asian with a credit card.
Who needs MCs, anyway, unless one's got $100k plus system and impeccable hearing ? Then maybe, depending on music and sound preferences. Not my case. Better spend extra cash on diamonds for women, this audiophile stuff is not worth much really. $100k, no more.
@ethiessen1. All good points. I have to believe that as the price increases with these cartridges, so do the margins. It would therefore seem highly appropriate to me that the manufacturers should incorporate some kind of program to allow home auditioning. As you can see, so far in this thread, most people seem to believe that isn’t possible, but I think it’s a cop out on the manufacturers behalf, and possibly the dealers also. Like i stated, the dealer that ultimately received my business allowed for a home audition, and was very generous with the terms.
Two thoughts: if the difference in retail prices between Tokyo and the US is truly as stated, there's plenty of margin to offer, on a selected basis, a loaner or two to qualified potential buyers, most probably previous clients of the establishment. Secondly, in almost every business that sells directly to consumers, the retail locations are given an additional discount on the loaner and/or display pieces they use to market the items. Somehow I doubt that cartridge manufacturers are so neanderthal that they don't offer some sort of similar program that, combined with the Asia vs North American price differential, couldn't make home auditioning a possibility. Clearly, it sounds like for some brands, it hasn't.
I don’t get it. Where’s the joy in the experience? So much cynicism and negativity around an endeavor that, it seems to me, should be joyous and exciting in it’s sense of discovery. Not unlike listening to the music itself. There are so many good options available; and some don’t cost many thousands of dollars. Elizabeth nailed it, “a pleasant walking fantasy”. I just finished listening to Herbie Hancock’s “Maiden Voyage” courtesy of my freshly re-installed Empire 4000DIII Gold and like the Acutex 420STR it replaced (which replaced a VDH Grasshopper) it reaffirmed for me just how much great music a good vintage mm can make. Chakster is correct in his praise for them. I have three very good mc’s that I like a lot, but I regret being seduced by the mystique of the mc when I was first getting involved in this hobby many years ago. I would have been far better off buying some of the great, now unavailable, mm’s instead.
$10,000+ cartridge? Seems a little obscene and indulgent; but, that’s just me.
Love love love my Lyra Delos and my all things Analog dealer Stereo Unlimited in San Diego painless experience including demo in store on my table which helped clinch my decision to also buy a fantastic HRS base robert spent a few hours putting my table together, dialing in the Delos and tweaking the loading on my Nova II enjoy the music !!!
@daveyf Oh yes, the system is broken and it definitely needs to change. And change it will: capitalist society cannot exist without the prospect of infinite economic growth and obviously that’s not possible. It seems we’re getting closer and closer to the point where earth will no longer sustain the environmental conditions congenial to human life. It’s either system change or climate change, so something has to give. Let’s hope humanity will come to its senses in time and change the system around before the planet does it for us. Things are definitely not looking good, yet I try to be optimistic, because..... what else can you do?
Thankfully there are some signs of change and I personally hope that an embedded ’crowd’ economy of collaborative commons will gain momentum as a new and more inclusive model for the next society. So no, we don’t have to accept the current situation. However, it’s highly unlikely the ’revolution’ will start with our hobby, being the insignificant little niche market it is. I don’t know about you, but I’m not holding my breath for the first ’high end MC’ sharing platform....
I agree, cartridge prices, specially MC, are nuts. They are so fragile that I can't imagine spending more than 1K on one...I have had a Denon 103r broken by kids, an SAE 1000LT and an Ortofon Quintet Blue needle broken during apartment moves. It's a bad situation.
Hana seems to be a good, well priced solution currently.
Dear @daveyf : You want something that make sense ( I conccur with you. ) that just can't be fixed in a " no-sense " market. It's a figth that you already losted before start it.
It's soemthing like this:
in the last 3 years I posted several times ( more than six times. ) something to do for we each time we buy new LP's we can receive LP's with out: off-centered, true flat surfac with out no single wave, zero surface noises of everykind, etc, etc.
In all those times that I posted very seriously about I said that WE CUSTOMERS ARE REALLY THE MARKET OWNER, THE ONES THAT PUT THE MONEY FOR THE INDUSTRY CAN GROW UP BUT THE MANUFACTURERS AND DEALERS JUST DON'T CARE ABOUT AND ONLY TAKE OUR MONEY. AS WITH CARTRIDGES EACH TIME MORE MONEY HIGHER PRICES.
In all those posts I said that we are the culprit for things happens and follows happening and the only way to stop to those " hunger $$$ $ " manufacturers/dealers of LPs is that each one audiophile on earth stop to buy not even a single LP.
Those posts were read it not only for Agoner's but for people of other forums that read but not post in Agon.
I can tell you that not a single Agoner gave an answer or sugguested soemthing about. From my part I stopped to buy LPs.
@daveyf , the reality is that we customers deserves everything we have because we don't care about anything that's affecting all customers.
Tell the whealthy gentlemans that stop to buy the high prices cartridges till the dealer/manufacturer policies changes in favor of we customers and you know what they do just: laughing of you.
If we don't care about LP's...... go figure in what we cares ! ? ! ? !
The aphaty/indifference that we seed is what we all collect.
That's why the corrupted AHHE always takes advantages of each one of us.
95% have-nots service 5% haves, more so in Russia, some Asian and South American countries. This country is currently moving in the direction of third world countries, somewhere in-between right now. So I will actively participate in this extreme capitalism. I will buy nothing regardless of cost and whether or not I can afford it unless the terms are reasonable as judged by me. Simple enough.
@edgewear. Very interesting post, and one that I basically concur with. OTOH, are you suggesting that because the system is broken, that there is no need to try and fix it? If we don’t start somewhere, then the status quo remains. Now, this situation is maybe what the majority want, and I’m sure it works just fine for most of the dealers ( you aren’t one...or are you?). If that is the case, then so be it; but I can tell you my points in my OP still stand....and I strongly suspect for many folks this situation is not acceptable. Live with it, sure we could, but the question might become....why do we have to?
@daveyf Perhaps you should look at this from a different angle. We all know perfectly well there's a global consumer market in which 10k is considered pocket change. It is precisely this market that these cartridges are aimed at. They are just trophies for people who like to show they can afford the best, or at least the most expensive. Sound quality is not their obsession, so why bother with a demo? That's for dummies.
It seems there are also some regular folks, who have been led to believe that these absurdly priced cartridges offer some magical sonic capabilities that are only attainable at this exalted price level. But for them these things really do cost a fortune, so they want 'service' in order to make a considered purchase.
Two different worlds and they'll never meet. I'm afraid the situation is much worse than a nightmare. It's the reality of extreme capitalism. The audio business community has made its choice, so deal with it or get smart.
@rauliruegas Firstly, I am not as convinced as you, or some others on this thread, that this issue cannot be 'fixed' or at least made a lot better than what the current state is. Secondly, I don't know about you, but I happen to think that 'blindly' buying ANY gear in our hobby is far from ideal, and will ultimately lead to major disappointments; regardless of how much 'experience' you think you have! Thirdly, as I posted before, I don't happen to think that all top flite cartridges sound good...to my ears there are some that i have heard that I wouldn't give you $5- for...never mind the ridiculous price being asked! Right now, there is a lot of chatter about one of these designs that has a major problem with sibilance in the high frequencies, so much so that there are consumers who are beginning to very much regret its purchase ( and no, I won't be disclosing which model it is). It is becoming clear to these folks that this particular design is deeply flawed from a technical perspective. Problem is, what do these very same consumers now do with this cartridge, sell it into the used market at a huge discount is the answer.
So, yes we can all take it or leave it and live happy with our choice, or in the instance I pointed out above...live unhappily with our choice. I hope the translation of this post to you makes sense.
Dear @daveyf : I think that you have to re-read carefully my last post to you.
"""
Some of the models sound too warm, some are too bright, some are veiled and non resolving. """
All those are characteristics in cartridges that makes differences. Forgeret to have in your system a top cartridge/high price to listening it before you buy it, it's futile/useless to continue with that issue. Like you I'm not happy that I can't do that but we just can't fix it, so why insist on it?. Go a head, move on . You don't " win " nothing staying sticky with. """ Do they all sound good, as you say, not to my ears ..."""
top cartridges/$$ all sound good accept it or not, there are not bad performance cartridges down there only different characteristics that just does not goes with your pririties but exist the ones that goes with you: just buy one of these and please don't post that you have to listening first.
Where are all those music>/audio decades you posted of self experiences if you can't decide which cartridge to buy ! ! ! and repeat that I don't like it the way cartridges are marketed but we can't fix it, at least not you or me. So take it or leave it and live happy with what you decided.
I have a curiosity that I hope you will engage me in. I am happier than a hog in slop with my cartridge.(that's the cleanest euphemism I could think of at the moment, you substitute your own)
Since we all consider the cartridge the most single important piece in an analog rig, I'm curious as to why you chose your favorite cartridge, what is your favorite cartridge, and why you think it's so special?
My cartridge is the Grado Master 2. Since I began this hobby in 1970, I've experienced a lot of cartridges; non more expensive than my present cartridge. This cartridge seems to emphasize all of my music, and make it more musical; comparing to colors; the reds are redder, the blues bluer, the yellows are ....; you get my drift; I'm a listener not a critic, or a reviewer.
Could you describe what makes your cartridge so special, and why you chose it.
Well, most people follow herd instinct and nourish their narcissism. Interesting combination, isn't it ? So whatever they do will be trivial. I just wonder what is going to happen when good food becomes 10 times more expensive? If this happens people who at present buy $10k cartridges without auditioning will become hunted, hopefully only for money to buy food not to have them for dinner. But who knows ? Someone might want to hunt me too - yes, I did buy $995 cables once ! Yes, without auditioning. But I am well familiar with the brand and I consulted with those whose opinion I could trust.
@pingvin, you bring up an excellent point. The type of arm and the table will certainly have a lot to do with the result of changing the cartridge. I haven’t even mentioned the varying parameters that one needs to consider in buying one of these cartridges... the output level, the compliance of the arm, the ability of the arm to adjust the variables that some cartridges require...ie VTF, VTA,Azimuth SRA etc. and the ability of the cartridge to be fitted into the head shell...( yes, some won’t work on various head shell designs)...and other variables....the phono cabling, the tonearm cabling and so forth. IME, if you get these items wrong, you are going to get a different sound out of the particular cartridge in question....some cartridges more than others. You state demo with your own table, unfortunately that is where one of the issues lie...almost impossible to do that.
@inna. I like where you are coming from. I would very much like to see the reaction of some of these guys if ( and that’s a big if) they had gone out and a) bought one of these pricey high end cartridges, without auditioning it first...and based on just some review, had it installed in their arm...then listened to it sound like Sh—-t! I bet these same guys would then be screaming to the rafters...bunch of hypocrites.imo. Oh,instead they are all going to tell me b) that this is what big boys do...and losing thousands of $$’s is no big deal, that’s all part of the game, lol. What do you think they will do...a or b?
One thing I find curious about this thread is that at no stage has the table and arm been mentioned. We know that synergy is important; nowhere more so than in vinyl replay. There will typically be a few carts that are known to play well with a given table and arm, so that immediately helps to narrow the choice. And with a good dealer to advise, I don’t think it’s that difficult to get a fix on what a cart is contributing to the system’s sound when hearing a demo with one’s own table and arm — sufficient at least to avoid the “mistakes” that the OP fears. Of course, this approach does not work if one wants to expand the options to carts not usually paired with a given table and arm, but that way madness lies, and I would rather get on with listening to records than wandering around that heath.
To address another point regarding cartridges of, say, similar level sounding different, of course they sound different, though it is hard to hear them sound without arm, table and phono. It is called coloration. Turntables of similar level also sound different, again hard to listen to them without cartridge. Coloration as well. The whole vinyl based system is colored big time. If you want less coloration get a reel to reel deck and master tape dubs. Same with tube rolling - different kinds of coloration, substituting one with another. Still can be better than metallic and lacking natural complexity transistors.
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