I actually agree with the basic sentiments that started this thread. It’s impossible to listen to everything in circumstances that resemble your listening environment. It’s all a bit of a leak of faith.
I would add add that I have a Miyajima Kansui on my arm currently. In the stable are a Shelter 901, Koetsu Redwood, and a Madrigal Carnegie 1. The fact that Miyajima offers very low cost factory retipping must be mentioned. Makes me wonder whether the Koetsu is worth it. But, I have to say the Madrigal does some things better than the others. Just my results.
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@tatyana69.Please do tell us how your Benz is going to be serviced now that Benz has gone? By Soundsmith??? Sure, that is ’if’ you want a totally different SQ...
IME, re-tips by aftermarket vendors never end up giving the same result as a re-build by the original manufacturer. Personally, I don’t shop for a cartridge based on the cost of the future re-tip/re-build. That aspect is to me of lesser importance, because I am unlikely to do that for several thousand hours- and therefore the cost is essentially amortized over the life of the cartridge. However, what does concern me far more, is the issue that the company that I just bought my expensive cartridge from, is likely to be there in the future...in order to do the re-tip/re-build. While no-one can accurately determine this aspect, there are some companies that IMO have a higher probability of being around than others. Benz has had ’issues’ for years. |
That is why when my Benz Ruby 3 goes down due to a worn stylus I won't rebuild it at Soundsmith. Friends have informed me that the cartridge I get back won't be the same, probably worse sounding, azimuth off, different stylus shape, etc.
However, I am willing to purchase a Cardas Myrtle Heart which is the same cartridge but with a different body. I don't know why they did that, the Ruby 3 is great as is. They also sell an all silver coil version which sounds different (higher resolution).
I just wonder how different a properly loaded Ortofon Cadenza Bronze or Dynavector XX2 will sound if I can't get a Cardas. |
daveyf OP1,051 posts“11-17-2018 10:03pm@fleschleri am replacing my 21 year old Benz Ruby 2, and if it were possible to have upgraded in the Benz line, I would have. Unfortunately, I am told that Benz is once again, no more!“
Who told you that? |
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trying to help someone else fro having a nightmare like I did. |
@jperry Like I stated above, my Benz dealer and the US distributor...Musical Surroundings. Do you know something that would contradict that? |
Yes. I spoke to Musical Surroundings today and they said Benz Micro was in business, but selling their product primarily in Europe and the Far East. Did you talk to John or Garth?
Also, not sure to what “above” you are referring. |
I don't recall seeing any Benz cartridges on sale in Tokyo, as of last June. Or any time before that, either. But since I wasn't actually looking for a Benz, it could have escaped my notice. |
Interesting, I believe I spoke to John. Since it would appear that these guys are no longer the US representatives, I wonder why they lead me ...and my dealer friend,to believe the company was no more. Since I had a deal with my dealer to acquire an LPSMR, I wonder if they couldn’t be bothered to source it for us! If that is the case, I think that is pss poor customer service! Like i stated above, it would not be the first time a representative that has lost the line acts unscrupulously. Now I have more questions about that, but I have acquired another cartridge entirely, and so it is moot to me now. Pity, as my dealer friend ended up not being able to assist me with any cartridges and lost the sale. ( he represented only Benz and Transfiguration).
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Reflecting on this a little more, there certainly is a dealer in China, who is active on this forum, selling Benz cartridges, among others, at excellent pricing. However, he is not an authorized dealer for these brands. As a grey market vendor, I wonder how he seems to have such an unending supply of these cartridges?
I mentioned this in my OP. |
Does anyone have any dealings with buying carts off of EBay, from Japan. The savings is tremendous. I’ve read from dealers, they come with no warranties. |
@handymann An excellent question! One that I would like to see answered as well.
Interesting data point. We have several vendors on eBay in Japan selling Koetsu's, as an example. NONE of them have ANY feedback from buyers about their Koetsu buying experience...NONE! Plenty of feedback about inexpensive items that were acquired from these vendors, none on any higher priced cartridge sale...hmmm!!! |
The key world is "buying", not "trying". Japanese sellers does not provide trial option for the cartridges they are selling on ebay (the goal is just a low price). The OP problem is that he can’t buy, he want to try it first. He’s looking not only for the most expensive cartridges like Koetsu, he also would like to try it and return it used or even damaged back to the seller (or to a distributor). In his ideal world distributor have to lose money on people like him and return those opened/used cartridges back to the manufacturer for full refund? So if some people (who can’t even install $100 cartridge) will destroy 10% of the bunch of $5k cartridges (by trying them in their systems) it does not hurt anyone (dealer, distributor, manufacturer...) and all for free.
Used market is not for him, he need a new cartridge to open sealed box by himself and then return it used. How many cartridges he would like to try like that until he will find what he need (10-40) ? At the distributor’s cost anyway. Good idea? This is what this post is all about.
Buying cartridges is a "nightmare" for him, no free demos :(
For some sellers people like him is a "nighmare" to deal with.
This is where his ideal world meets the reality. Welcome to the world.
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You really have no idea about what I am concerned about, do you?
Please re-read my OP, and attempt to understand why the current high priced cartridge buying status quo isn’t, at least imho, a very palatable scenario for the high end cartridge consumer.
Let me give you a simple example of why I think this is a problem...
You have just gone out and spent $10k on a new cartridge, one that you have never heard before( because no dealer stocks it, and because even if they did, they are typically not demoing this model; or assuming that they do have it on demo, the arm and table that they utilize is VERY different to yours).
You plunk down your hard earned cash— ? , and the dealer mounts it for you, or maybe you do it yourself , either way, the cartridge is now on your own arm and table. Presumably safely mounted and correctly set up. You give it a listen, and...
ooops, it sounds like sh—t!
According to your philosophy, no problem, after all, what’s $10k to you, lol. So, now your options are a) sell cartridge used for a significant $ loss, b) learn to live with the debacle and be a BiG man, or c) see if the dealer will somehow accommodate you given the fact that he highly recommended the cartridge in the first place...
please do ‘enlighten’ us as to which one of these is your position.( somehow, I seriously doubt it’s b...)
Now, I’m not saying that I expect all dealers to allow me to first try expensive cartridges in my own system first, without some kind of off-setting compensation...that’s your assumption.
BTW, are you a cartridge dealer or manufacturers rep, because if you are, I can easily tell that you have little to no concern about your customers,or their customer satisfaction.
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Have bought a couple of relatively inexpensive cartridges and other items from Juki in the past. Wouldn’t hesitate to deal with him and, if I recall correctly, he did take a fairly expensive cartridge back on return/exchange once from someone posting on another forum.
Took a quick look at his feedback and didn’t see any Koetsu feedback (he does have some listed) but did notice a couple of feedbacks on pretty upmarket cartridges (Ortofon A95 and Dynavector SV-1S) in the past few months, both of which sold at substantial (really substantial actually!) discounts to the U.S. prices. It appears they are essentially being sold without the U.S. distributor/retail chain mark up. |
Often you can get a sense of cartridges by reading not only the reviews but what many people have to say. As you are on this forum you know you have to read a lot. Are people agreeing on characteristics? Warm? Analytical? What do you like? Can you buy a demo at half price from a rep on audiogon who has excellent feedback? Even if ebay has better prices buy from somebody in the US who is known to be a superb seller. I've done it twice with two sellers on audiogon after reading a lot about their cartridges and they were great to deal with. And their cartridges were to die for.
I mean what else can you do? Nothing I'm afraid. If you dislike it sell it. Your loss is your price to have auditioned it. Nobody said this is a cheap hobby. It can be crazy expensive. We all know that and it means enough for us to pay the price. You surely know that as well.
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This is a relevant and as it turns out, entertaining thread. I’m thinking I could improve my analog system and think starting at the source, i e cartridge, makes sense. I have a high quality TT w/ a high quality compliance-matched tonearm, and good components down line. But I’m also spooked by the risk/return of a cartridge purchase. Whether or not I can afford a “high end” cartridge doesn’t solve my desire to feel confident in the decision to buy it. I want to hear it, after run-in and properly installed on equipment that’s reasonably similar to mine. And unless I can get a loaner/demo that’s next to impossible. I have no real answer other than agree it’s frustrating - unless I simply start throwing money at the problem hoping to eventually find something to keep. |
@papafrgog. +1
Add to that as you increase the budget, the more it becomes not just frustrating, but also economically more untenable. Not saying that plenty of folks don’t have any issues with the economics, but I happen to know of more than a few folks, who have incredibly deep pockets, that do! |
Anyone can do this:
Simply buy used cartridge for affordable price (which is easy to re-sell with no loss at all), if you really like it then buy the same cartridge, but a brand new (sealed in the box) from authorized dealer for higher price with warranty if you want (maybe even with discount from a good dealer). You can only play with a cartridge for 2000 hrs maximum if the stylus is MicroRidge (or related), and only 500 hrs if the stylus is elliptical. Then your $10k cartridge must be re-tipped, but they don’t want you to re-tip it, they want you to buy anothey brand new cartridge for 60% of what you paid for a previous brand new cart. Each 2000 hrs of playtime you will have to pay again. Only a few manufacturers offer affordable re-tip or factory rebuild. Once you paid $10k most of the manufacturers would like to get another $6k from you when the stylus is worn. Or even more if you want to "upgrade" to the next overpriced model. This is crazy!
$10k for a cartridge is a waste of money anyway. You are trying to get demo of $10k cartridge to buy it, but what’s then? Another $6k to use it longer than 2000 hrs ? It’s a waste of money anyway, no matter how your cartridge was bought (with demo or without demo). It’s absolutely insane to pay $10k and then another $6k just to use a cartridge for a long time.
For the same price i can buy 16 amazing top of the line vintage cartridges and it would be much better investment because this is an experience with 16 different cartridges on different tonearms etc. This experience will bring me some killer cartridges for sure. And i don't care about dealers and stuff.
Your problem exist for very few people, who would like to buy the most expensive cartridges for some reason whithout even knowing why do they need them (because they never even tried them).
When do you think yours post will change everything in dealerships and customers care etc ? |
@chakster You are still not understanding this point...many people, including myself are not going to purchase a used cartridge.. Simple reason, you have no way of truly knowing how many hours that cartridge has on it. Plus, who knows how the rest of it is performing, suspension issues etc., Consequently , whether it is up to manufacturers specs is anybody’s guess. Therefore, there are many folks, including myself,who aren’t going to risk what you propose; perhaps unlike you, they are not willing to risk damaging expensive vinyl with a once and done play due to the defective stylus. You still don’t believe that these old worn vintage models and the worn out modern cartridge can be a factor in this regard. Remind me to never buy any vinyl from you, lol. |
Come on Dave, there is a lot of distance between those vintage cartridges that harm vinyl & those that don't. If one is not inspecting or replacing the stylus of a vintage cartridge (like your friend apparently), & setting them up properly, they deserve damaged vinyl. It's never happen to me & I actually enjoy buying, inspecting, & setting those old disasters up. You make the entire cartridge buying process sound like a root canal. |
@boxer12. Ok, so maybe you can answer me this....how do you know that the stylus on the old cartridge with unknown amounts of usage, is not worn out?( to the point of doing damage on the first play). Taking the cartridge to a ‘professional’ has not been productive,IME. I don’t think there are too many people who actually know what the correct shape and faceting of the diamond is supposed to look like. Plenty of folks are willing to guess at it though.
Please do tell us exactly what you are looking at when you ‘inspect’ the used cartridge. |
Well that was fast Dave. You're insinuating nobody knows what to look for, fair enough (I guess). I have access to very high powered microscopes and stay on the safe side... If it is even questionable, it gets a new stylus. If it doesn't get a new stylus, I set it up exactly as it should be & take special note of how the suspension is when setting it in the first groove. Again, if it looks questionable, the stylus gets replaced. This doesn't have to be rocket science.
Your turn... |
Ok my turn, lol...boxer12
Please do tell us what a worn Shibata stylus looks like, or a worn micro ridge, or worn line contact, or even a worn out elliptical. I’m not saying you don’t know what they look like when they are worn, as I am certainly hoping you can share that information with me...and the other members. However, I am saying that most people have absolutely no clue. Including dealers and other ‘professionals’, who are only too happy to guess at it!
Now here’s the other problem with many high end MC cartridges, IME, replacing the stylus with a Soundsmith,or other non factory replacement, results in a cartridge that is usually a fraction of what it used to be when factory fresh.
Whether this issue applies to vintage SPUs etc., which presumably can be rebuilt by the factory, I have no idea, but I’m not willing to go through the hassles of finding out.YMMV. |
Dave,
"
Please do tell us what a worn Shibata stylus looks like, or a worn micro ridge, or worn line contact, or even a worn out elliptical. I’m not saying you don’t know what they look like when they are worn, as I am certainly hoping you can share that information with me...and the other members"
Maybe it's just the "do" in your questions (I suspect it's more) but you come off as pretty condescending Dave. To know what those cuts look like, one can use google. All the information is there & that is what I do. Again, if it looks questionable, I replace it. I can tell you in all honesty that I haven't trashed any vinyl following the process stated in my previous post. |
@boxer12. You are telling us that you know what these diamonds look like when they are worn by looking at Google examples...??
For example, a worn out Micro ridge stylus has what damage to the facet and at what angle? I may sound condescending here, because frankly I am sick of hearing from people who defend their Bs with more Bs.
Don’t get me wrong, you may have the necessary experience, I have no way of knowing, but your last point about Google is making me wonder.
Sorry, but IF you really have no clue about what a worn out stylus looks like, then I think you might want to state that and not try and defend a position that is BS.
Over the years, I have spoken to numerous folks who have told me that their experience with buying used cartridges has led to one disaster after another. Mostly due to worn out styluses and worn out suspensions. Now according to others here, there is no issue with buying an old vintage cartridge with thousands of hours on the stylus and then being perfectly happy with the results...this is exactly what brought my friend into the vintage cartridge fold. Unfortunately, for him, the cost was quite high, maybe for others they don’t care, but like I stated, please make sure I never buy any vinyl from you! |
Dave,
First off,
I wouldn't knowingly sell you anything. ever.
Second,
You made another big jump from google to bs. Just because my process doesn't fit into your wheelhouse, doesn't mean it's bs. Google images can be your friend here. It is not hard to compare what you see in a microscope to an image of what it is supposed to look like.
Third,
I don't recall anyone here stating that they bought an old vintage cartridge with thousands of hours on the stylus and being perfectly happy with the results. That would not be prudent & frankly your friend should have seen some type of red flag there.
Fourth,
To state that numerous people have complained about buying used cartridges really holds no weight.
People complain about everything. Your post reaffirms this to a "T". That stated, I'm sure if I looked hard enough, I could find numerous people complain about any cartridge bought, new or used.
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What Dave fails to comprehend is that when you try a new cartridge, and decline to purchase said cartridge, the next in line considers it used. Perhaps the phrase “have your cake and eat it, too” should be change to “use a cartridge and keep it new”. |
@boxer12. You have stated enough, now I am certain of your expertise.
@nrenterI totally understand that once you try a cartridge it is considered used, which is exactly one of the problems that we are discussing.
However, I am questioning whether or not there is a solution to the issue presented in my OP. So far, we have had a few potential options/solutions given...maybe re-read some of the thread and see what the thoughts about this are.
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Nobody have any experience buying high end cartridges, like Koetsu, from vendors on Ebay in Japan, or elsewhere? |
@daveyf
Simple reason, you have no way of truly knowing how many hours that cartridge has on it. Plus, who knows how the rest of it is performing, suspension issues etc., Consequently , whether it is up to manufacturers specs is anybody’s guess.
Therefore, there are many folks, including myself,who aren’t going to risk what you propose; perhaps unlike you, they are not willing to risk damaging expensive vinyl with a once and done play due to the defective stylus.
You still don’t believe that these old worn vintage models and the worn out modern cartridge can be a factor in this regard. Remind me to never buy any vinyl from you, lol. I quickly became a cartridge collector and all my favorite vintage cartridges were purchased NOS (New Old Stock, some of them still sealed). It's not easy to find a NOS cartridge, but first we can try used and if we like it we will wait for a NOS to pay much more for it. This is how it works. We keep on moving, learning the process, searching for the best cartridges, we pay for mistakes, but in the end we got some amazing vintage cartridges in New Old Stock condition. I definitely don't understand your style of buyin cartridges, except that you're looking for the most expensive ones. Some people strongly believes that each new cartridge must be played for 50-100 hrs to burn-in. Your $10k new cartridge may not be good enough if it was not used for 100 hrs. |
@hdm Have bought a couple of relatively inexpensive cartridges and other items from Juki in the past. Wouldn’t hesitate to deal with him and, if I recall correctly, he did take a fairly expensive cartridge back on return/exchange once from someone posting on another forum. He’s selling grey market cartridges, his ZYX cartridges (for example) have FAKE serial numbers and it was confirmed by distributor and manufacturer for me. Surely ebay buyers are all protected by paypal, but would you buy a cartridge from the seller who replaced original serial number with fake serial numbers ? Some official distributors will be happy to make a discount if the price is the reason. But i would never buy a new cartridge from a cheaters who manipulates with serial numbers. |
Thanks for giving us a heads up about Juki. There are several vendors on eBay and a couple here that are very much grey market. Odd thing is that they seem to have good feedback on ebay, except nothing that relates to cartridge sales! Kron on this site seems to basically have the Benz Micro line sewn up.
Have to wonder how these guys get their supplies, when the regular dealers apparently cannot?
Question becomes if there are counterfeit cartridges on the market? I do know that the rep fronVan Den Hul told me that there is a vendor in the Netherlands who is taking very old Van Den Huls and retipping them and basically re-freshing them. Selling them as more current models than what they are!
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You guys have seen too many James Bond movies. As against Chakster's experience with 2juki, there are many others who have had good experiences buying from him. (I purchased a used, vintage tonearm from him, not a cartridge, and I was very pleased with the transaction.) The risk for a new cartridge would be that the distributor in your own country would probably not honor the Japan-only warranty. Why should he? I am certainly not questioning Chakster's veracity here. I'd like to know more.
I'm not sure where 2juki would get a ZYX cartridge with a "fake" serial number, in the first place, unless the implication is that the cartridge is not new or not what it is labeled as. |
Building a great cartridge is hard.
Building a functioning cartridge is less hard.
I'm sure there are counterfeit examples of mega buck carts out there. Not implying anything about any of the vendors mentioned here.
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You guys have seen too many James Bond movies. As against Chakster’s experience with 2juki, there are many others who have had good experiences buying from him. (I purchased a used, vintage tonearm from him, not a cartridge, and I was very pleased with the transaction.) The risk for a new cartridge would be that the distributor in your own country would probably not honor the Japan-only warranty. Why should he? I am certainly not questioning Chakster’s veracity here. I’d like to know more. Well, used items is another story, no problem with them or with vintage stuff he could sell. But the question is why a brand new ZYX products is cheaper from him than from anybody else? Serial number of the very old ZYX appeared on a brand new ZYX cartridges from Juki. My own brand new ZYX Airy III came with fake serial number. I did not tell about the source when i asked to check serial number with US Distributor and Japanese manufacturer. I’m not sure where 2juki would get a ZYX cartridge with a "fake" serial number, in the first place, unless the implication is that the cartridge is not new or not what it is labeled as. Serial number most likely replaced by him or his supplier who would like to remain unknown, this how someone trying to get rid of the overstock by selling products to greymarket dealers (to sell them for much lover price than official price, even with discount). This is a real war between manufacturer/distributor and grey market sellers. What i can say for sure is that a distributor will be happy to make a discount too, maybe not all of them. And to make a good contact with a honest distributor is much better than with a grey market seller (imo). |
Chakster: your position on Juki is well known (almost legendary at this stage from being repeated so much here).
Anyone capable of doing a google search can come up with lots of information on Juki. He's been selling cartridges and other audio related equipment for about 20 years now (possibly longer), has impeccable Ebay feedback and, from what I can see, is not prone to jerking people around or refusing returns. Most of his customers have nothing but positive things to say about him.
The grey market is the grey market. Your suggestion that similar discounts are going to be available through normal channels is not reasonable; that's how the "normal channels", distributors and retailers, make their money.
Your point about Juki's sources though is valid and is the topic of discussion in at least one of the threads about Juki if one wants to spend the time online. And it is very possible that those sources, quite very possibly legitimately purchased through the manufacturer or normal distributor channels, but then, for whatever reason needed to liquidate or unload the product and then altered or destroyed serial numbers to protect themselves and their relationship with the manufacturer or regional distributor.
So it's no surprise that manufacturers and distributors are not big fans of Juki as he's making their life a bit more difficult. From what I can see there is no proof whatsoever of Juki selling used as new or altering serial numbers himself.
It's important that Buyers be aware of the fact that manufacturer's warranty is not going to be available through Juki or other grey sellers and I think that most who purchase from him are aware of this and I would expect that especially someone who is interested in purchasing a $2000-$5000 cartridge from him at an outrageous discount to retail would likely be aware of this.
And I'm sure there would be buyers of these cartridges who could care less about the fact that they cannot have the cartridge rebuilt in the future by the manufacturer at a price that grossly exceeds the cost of going to an aftermarket re-builder/retipper, as sacrilegious as that seems to you and many others. Or they can just toss the cartridge at the end of its life or sell it to a guy like me who, if the price is reasonable enough, will send it to an aftermarket retipper.
For those types of Buyers, Juki is simply filling a need that obviously exists in the marketplace.
I'm curious: did you find out about the serial number on your Zyx before you mounted and used it and approach Juki for a refund/return? |
@hdm a few things you should know about ZYX:
Find information about upgrade program, only if your cartridge is LEGIT (not the one with fake serial number) you can send it back to ZYX to buy next model in the line with nice discount. You need a help of distributor to do that.
$3-5000 ZYX is not a Denon 103 to send it for "upgrade" to many re-tippers. You can only downgrade ZYX if someone will touch it, this cartridge has sealed body and unique Boron cantilever construction, especially the stylus mounting method (i’ve posted pics before in another thread). Each ZYX has tons of unique patents, this is not a conventional cheap cartridge.
Once your ZYX is worn or damaged what would you do? You can not send it back to ZYX if the serial number is fake number. It’s grey market cartridge. You can only destroy it, sell it, or rebuild it (no longer original zyx sound).
Yeah, i know it’s still ok for some dudes to buy on grey market, but not for me, i’m much more happy to buy a demo from official distributor or used legit cartridge from some nice and honest person.
P.S. No i have not tried to return a cartridge, i’ve been using this cartridge, i realize the problem with serial number only when i start thinking about upgrade to the next model for a low cost via official distributor.
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Thread officially derailed. Tapping out. |
If you buy grey market are you stuck with going to a 3rd party like Soundsmith to get a re-tip? |
Chakster:
I am quite aware of everything you stated in your last post with the exception of the unique mounting of the stylus on your Zyx.
Unlike you, I’d be quite content to have an aftermarket retipper do the catridge at a significant discount to replacement price from Zyx on trade. It would no longer be a Zyx but if it sounded good, I could care less. And there are many stories out there from those who have had very expensive cartridges retipped by Soundsmith, Andy Kim or other aftermarket rebuilders who have been very happy with them.
I suppose I have to hang my head in shame and live with the fact that my Accuphase AC2 is really no longer an AC2. It is still a Nakatsuka design (like your Zyx) but now sports a Namiki boron cantilever and microridge stylus (I believe most of the Zyx cartridges sport Namiki manufactured cantilever and styli as well) instead of its original sapphire cantilever.
But it sounds very nice and for the $625 U.S. (in total) I have invested in it I’m quite happy. I’d probably be quite content to do the same kind of thing to your Zyx if I could acquire it at the right price but I’d have to get it cheap LOL.
In the end, I doubt you are really out a lot of money based on Juki’s typical discounts on cartridges like that based on what it is worth on a trade in back to Zyx. And you could always recover a few hundred dollars selling it after 1500-2000 hours to someone like me who doesn’t care that it really won’t be a Zyx anymore following an aftermarket retip. ;)
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@hdm i see you're not an expert in ZYX and this is why you don't care, but you have to see the original cantilever of my ex ZYX Airy III and the way the nude stylus is mounter on it. Tell me if you ever seen any other cantilever like that. The whole diamong goes throught the tiny hole in the hollow pipe cantilever. Also cartridge body is sealed, so to exchange the cantilever someone has to broke the cartridge body. I know all OEM cartridges designed by Nakatsuka-San, but his own ZYX is far better than all of them. i totally understand experiments with $500 Monster Cable MC cartridges, but people buyin $3000 or $5000 ZYX not just to play with it for 2000hrs and send it to after-market retippers, but normally to upgrade it to the next ZYX model officially via distributor. If you think that selling a used ZYX cartridge (or any expensive $3k modern MC cartridge) is easy without big loss, then i think you're wrong. Those carts can sit on ebay forever, especially refurbished ones with completely different cantilevers and broken plastic body. To make it short: People who're willing to pay premium price for ZYX would love to have support from the distributors, only in this case they could live with this cartridge and upgrade it by sending the old one (with valid serial number) back to the distributor, paying the differens on top to have the next model. We're talking about $5000+ cartridges here. I must say that next model after Airy III was 4D and then Premium 4-D ( this one was so much better in my system after Airy III). Would i send Zyx Premium 4-D to SoundSmith (i think he's the best) or any other ? No way! It make no sense to buy premium Zyx cartridges to send them for re-tip or rebuild to third-party vendors. I'm sure no one can make a ZYX cartridge better than Nakatsuka-San himself. It's better to buy another fully original cartridge, maybe from a different brand for more affordable price (this is what i did). P.S. For the same reason I would not send SoundSmith cartridges for example to Andy Kim pretending he will make them better or equal by adding his cantilever/stylus combo. This is nonsense. I don't want SoundSmith cantilever on ZYX too. |
Chakster, That photo of the cantilever/stylus on your Airy III is quite interesting. Didn’t Nandric indicate that pressure fitting of stylus to cantilever can only be done with an aluminum cantilever? Yet ZYX uses boron, I think. Or am I in error?
By the way, where does William Thakker fit in this scheme? He sells main line cartridges at low prices, too, from Europe. |
@hdm I think it fairly obvious that you don’t believe in buying expensive cartridges. Reason I say that is if you did happen to spring for one of these, I seriously doubt you would want it compromised once it needed a retip by any of the non factory retippers. My previous Benz could be retipped by Soundsmith, ( although it doesn’t need a retip yet), but why would I go that route, I would end up with a cartridge that wouldn’t hold up to my old Benz...and therefore imo would be a kludge at best. |
I am having a hard time comprehending this...how is that the grey market vendors of high priced cartridges can not only beat retail prices easily, but also have plenty of supply?
As an example, with Benz cartridges, there are a few grey market vendors ( one who is on this forum) who have plenty of supply, and yet the US dealers and reps tell us that these cartridges are now unobtanium. What gives? |
I have been away from the community for a very long time but I remember this cartridge quest when I was looking to replace my Benz Micro in 05............and yes I was unable to audition anything and my direction was influenced by readings, and audiogone. I ended up purchasing a Shelter 90X based primarily on dealer discussion/recommendation......so at this writing I am starting this quest again and it appears nothing has changed except the prices have risen
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@lewm Chakster, That photo of the cantilever/stylus on your Airy III is quite interesting. Didn’t Nandric indicate that pressure fitting of stylus to cantilever can only be done with an aluminum cantilever? Yet ZYX uses boron, I think. Or am I in error? This type of Boron cantilever is what Nakatsuka-San is using even on lower priced models, i’m sure high priced models also have same type of cantilever and same type of stylus mounting. This is what i can see on ZYX site on the pictures. Nandric is right about aluminum, but we don’t know the material of that collar on ZYX cantilever. Anyway remember Hollow Pipe Boron cantilevers made by Technics and laser etched technology to make a tiny hole in Boron to fit the diamond throght it (it was made in the ’70s by Matsushita). I know that ZYX Boron cantilever is rod, not pipe, but the collar may be a boron pipe or titanium pipe or whatever material (not necessary aluminum, because it’s black) ? It’s interesting, but aluminum collar on the oposite side of the Jico Boron cantilever looks like aluminum. But ZYX collar looks like Boron (it’s black). One metal collar (joint pipe) used by Jico to mount a Boron cantilever (Jico SAS stylus for my Technics 205c mk4), Axel did the same with Nagaoka boron cantilevers to rebuild technics 205c mk4, but it’s another story. The stylus is simply glued on Boron cantilever in both cases. Another collar used by Nakatsuka-San to mount his MicroRidge nude diamond right throught the pipe with minimum glue to reduce the mass. |
@daveyf
I certainly wouldn’t be interested in paying the full retail price for any of the uber cartridges as I don’t feel that they would represent good value for me based on my system and having heard a number of them in a system much better than mine.
If you listen to a lot of these cartridges in a very good system, I think it is fair to say that most of them are very good but really offer different types of presentations that appeal to listeners based, in good part, on their subjective listening preferences. And a cartridge that sounds great on one type of recording may not sound so good on another. To a certain extent I think there is always an element of compromise with the use of only one cartridge in a system.
So that is a conclusion that I’ve come to personally; if I had another $20K-$30K invested in my system and substantially more in my house providing a very large dedicated listening room then a $5K+ cartridge might make some sense to me.
As it stands though, if I was to purchase one of these cartridges at a reasonable (to me) discount, I would absolutely have no problem sending it to someone like Peter Ledermann or Andy Kim to have them rework it.
That is in fact, how I’ve been operating for the last 6-7 years, albeit with lesser cartridges, and its worked out pretty well for me. I do think the Accuphase AC2 that I’m currently using is at least competitive into the medium to higher range of cartridges currently out there.
In reality, you would have no idea how your Benz would stand up following work from an aftermarket retipper (at a substantial discount to a new cartridge or a manufacturer rebuild) unless you actually had the work done and made the comparison.
Many people have reported very good results with said aftermarket retips on high end cartridges.
The results of the recent retip of the Zyx Universe by Peter L in the current threads will be interesting to follow. |
