Brett, hearing tape hiss on albums from this analague era is a good thing. It means there is minimal compression during the mastering process. With the natural noise floor of the recording intact, we hear the ambience of the room and separation of instruments.
After upgrading my digital, I went on a tear buying early release Redbook to replace any remasters and CDs with poor SQ. The best were usually mastered in W. Germany followed by Japan. The Japanese like their digital clean and analytical.
I'm right there with you on the flat transfers of Zeppelin, Hendrix, Cream. Discogs is the place to go to find the best pressings.
And funny you should mention the remaster of Floyd's WYWH. My Redbook sounds excellent, it may be from the same session as the SACD remix. I own a few of the remasters that were released. I also own some original Japanese PF.
Now that I have good digital playback, it sounds very much like analague, but very dependent on the source material.
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I love R-R tape. I used it for years in studios, I'd love to have it in my home system. I've been told CD transfers sound terrific on tape.
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@brettmcee I am certain digital can sound as good, if not better than, vinyl and tape.
I agree with you, despite being a vinyl fan. My digital rig, for example (see above), sounds similar to my TT, consistently. On occasion it sounds better: for example "Money" on 24/192 supposedly copied from the MT (doubtful). As I said, my rig, my TT, my LP. YMMV |
@gregm
whats your digital setup?
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@brettmcee
I have a two-box combo, received on loan and subsequently kept: devices come under the unlikely names of "3R Master-time" (reclocker / regenerator/reviver), & "Ayazi Mk-2" (DAC). They are made by a company I’d never heard of before called "Ideon" audio (later found out they had a product called 3R reviewed on TAS).I got these in exchange for my old PS Audio perfect wave -2, so I guess they are most probably inexpensive, or reasonably priced, new.
My digital source is a NAS / music library played thru either a PC/ MusiChi or Mac/ Audirvana, the PC /MusiChi being the better of the two. USB cables are the inexpensive Audioquests.
Amazingly, the whole thing sounds very good!
Best
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+1 for Ayon Audio Stealth or Stratos. The latter being worth the extra if you can afford but the Stealth is also excellent.
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Can I suggest trying to audition a Mola Mola dac, either Tambaqui or Makua with dac module. Outstanding dac in my opinion. Also attention to seismic vibration isolation and compatible cabling is essential with high performance dacs. My suggestions here would be Ingress footers and Sablon Elite digital cables.
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Agreed on R2R designs. My HoloSpring Audio Kitsune' level 3 makes even compressed mp3s sound excellent, and CDs and high res sound "analog" in all the good ways... |
"Now that I can play back 7 1/2 tape in my system, I can hear what is lacking in both vinyl and digital."
This statement begs the question what is used as the source for copying the content onto the reel. Anything except the original studio recordings, which in almost all cases are on 1"or wider tapes, or direct-to-tape microphone recording, will require an intermediate medium, being vinyl to digital. I guess what you’re saying is you prefer the sound of tape just like someone says I prefer the sound of my CDs better after they’re ripped on a hard drive. Its all about what type of distortion sounds better to you.
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I over tweaked my A77 MKII until it went boom. Over 20 years ago.
That’s what happens when you push the pleasure button and more pleasure always comes out. You eventually search for a way to explode it as it hits the ground as launched as a supersonic missile...for a shot at maximum pleasure button pressing.. that "uh oh, I think I went too far, now it’s dun busted" thing we all do, at times..
Perhaps I need to get it out of storage and take another kick at and get those reels turning again....speaking about those reels, I've got the 7.5" master copy version of Hnedrix's 'are you experienced'. And that is, by far, the best rendition of that album I think I'll ever hear. Blows all LP versions out of the water. by a country mile.
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I’d love to hear that Hendrix reel!!! |
I listened to a 3 3/4 version of Jethro Tulls Aqualung a few nights ago. I didn’t have high expectations cus of the ips and the fact that that album does not sound good on CD.
The tape was a joy to listen to. So integrated, pleasant, cohesive. Wondering Aloud was sublime...perfect. |
Is it me or does digital often feel like too much information? Maybe too much of what isn’t essential...? Dunno. There is almost a ‘shout’ or ‘all on’ quality to it. I often explain it as the sensation of there being no room for the listener in much of digital playback. |
Too much information? No its just information not resolved or framed well. A good DAC or CD player shouldn't do this. My evaluation technique is to not actively listen and see if the sound draws me into the performance or is it a wall of sound or becomes annoying in the background. How it hits me on a subconscious level. In my experience vinyl kills digital when evaluated this way. |
wow.. that Wish You Were Here SACD is awesome.. you can hear the dude's breath blowing through the sax on Sine On You Crazy Diamond.. |
The Resolution Audio Cantata system sounds really good; natural, refined, no digital nasties. Metrum, also. At more stratospheric prices, well, Nagra and TotalDac. |
I’m using a NOS Audio Note 2.1 Signature with reclocker and can easily hear differences in recordings and mastering; ie, original flat CD transfers vs. remasters vs. modern loud CDs.
Many CDs have the "wall of sound" compression, early CDs typically are spacious, more dynamic, and organic (analogue-like).
I own the various early issue Hendrix CDs mastered in W. Germany and they sound like analogue tape reproducing studio depth, off-mike sounds, and clear vocals.
There are two versions of "Are You Experienced," one with NR and one without.
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I am finding the same with my Audio Mirror Tubadour III DAC which uses the same AD 1865 chip. Contrast is what I hear within recordings and from CD to CD with older masterings sounding better. I use the Cambridge Audio CXC transport which has a reclocker, curious what reclocker you use? or is it a built in one?
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All these suggestions are amazing people! Thank you.
...so I already own the ModWright Oppo 105D which many consider an excellent player (but now hearing tape in my system I see/hear all that is not quite right with digital). Most assuredly the Oppo is gonna stay in my system for the foreseeable future.
In the meantime, what is a very solid and noticeable DAC upgrade from the Oppo, on the used market, costing between $500-$1000? It does not need to do DSD, but something that could handle 24/196 via optical, coaxial or usb.
I have a Music Hall 25.3 DAC that I haven’t listened to in years, might hook that up. I can’t imagine the Music Hall is going to best the Oppo, but I’ll give it a shot.
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@musichead , yes the Analog Devices chips really are different than the new production.
My transport is a PS Audio PWT which uses a buffer to clock the data. Then I have an iFi iPurifier using a Swagman Labs upgraded LPS to the Audio Note. Then adding a High Fidelity CT-2 SPDIF cable was a major upgrade. I demoed it and even though it cost $1100, I had to have it. Its unlike any other cable I've heard.
From my Bluesound Node 2i I'm using an Empirical Design coax with a Cullen PC.
Using good quality power cords really upgrade performance of digital.
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“I am certain digital can sound as good, if not better than, vinyl and tape. And I am curious to find solutions towards that end.”
Emm Labs DA2 is one such DAC that can END your quest. |
Denafrips DACs do it for me.
I have the Pontus and rate it very highly for its density and, at the same time its delicacy.
I use it with Roon and Tidal via an Antipodes DS server/streamer and am continally amazed at the amount of information on a CD that is just waiting for the right equipment with which to reveal it.
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Every ModWright I have heard sounds like Sony with more space. Not analogue at all. The Oppo is not a very good sounding CD transport like most universal transports. Example is that if you burn your CD's to a thumb drive it will sound better than the disc spinner.
Because of this, the ModWright may not be what you use with an outboard DAC because you are not even using the mods you paid for.
Best for CD playback is a native Red Book transport not a universal. It takes big bucks for the universal to start sounding good because of the engineering fixes the manufacturers do to optimize the transport.
The most analogue sounding I have heard while not just darkening the info and coloring it is from Aesthetix. |
@audiobunker thanks for your thoughts and opinions!!! Any thoughts on a SONY NS9100ES CD SACD Player as transport, as a player? |
Anyone actually like digital glare and noisy dacs that do not sound good? Anyone? |
@brettmcee I've been following this thread to try and get a better understanding of exactly what you're looking for, but I'm still not sure I have a good picture of it.
I notice some people have mentioned the Lumin DACs with transformer-coupled outputs. I agree that they might fit your criteria as being very close to what you'd hear from an actual turntable setup. The Neko Audio D100 DAC that I designed also uses transformer-coupled outputs and I would put it in similar company.
But sometimes people looking for an analog sounding DAC aren't looking for what sounds like a turntable setup, but rather something that sounds a bit less dry and instead more engaging and warm. Or just something that doesn't sound like there's some veil or hash in the high frequencies while everything else being the same. |
TotalDAC (monoblocs with streamer/reclocker) was a game-changer and end-of line for me along this search criteria. |
Two dacs of late have given me the " digital is the new nirvana" feelings.
My own Ayon S3 tube DAC, I stream Quboz hirez via an Aries Mini to the Ayon then out via xlr to my Ayre ax7e.
And the best compliment I can come up with is that it sounds like vinyl.
No glare or harshness anywhere, maybe it is just a tad rounded off with some slight loss of detail but I can listen for HOURS!.
I was extremely lucky ( or cursed!) to be able to try a Chord DAVE in my system of late.
Oh my.
Same analog sound but more detailed and broader deeper soundstage. Just WOW really.
And that is the cursed part .. Lol. Need to cook up some legal scheme to find 10k to pay for one. |
I have heard a cd v vinyl comparison using the modright oppo 105 and half the audience preferred the cd which i thought sounded like noise. So be careful who you take advice from. I am sure a good digital solution is out there but like you I'm still looking.
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Years ago a lot of people tried to change dirt into gold. Now the same with DAC...
the problem is the source.
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I think you need to accept the fact that digital and analog are going to sound different, just like most sources (digital and analog) sound different from each other.
It comes down to what you like and find enjoyable. I have an Oppo 105D and am familiar with it. I also had an Oppo HA-1 headphone amp for a while. The Oppos are "digital" sounding. I don't find the sound unpleasant, but I have a number of DACs that I prefer - my Auralic Vega is the best of the bunch. The DAC in my Sony TA-ZH1ES headphone amp is also very nice.
Recently I purchased a used MHDT Orchid and have found this to be a very nice sounding DAC.
What all of these DACs have in common is a "warmer" sound.
The Orchid is a R2R non-oversampling DAC with a tube buffer. It "only" does 24/192, no MQA, no DSD, but I've been using it in my computer system and find it very detailed but without a lot of the harshness sometimes associated with digital. With the Orchid you can "roll" both the tubes and the DAC chip if you're into that sort of thing. Mine came with a couple of extra tubes and DAC chips, but I haven't tried making any changes yet.
After my experience with the Orchid, I would recommend checking it or some of the other R2R DACs out. |
@lalitk
Emm Labs DA2 is one such DAC that can END your quest.
Not if your goal is for digital to sound like vinyl. The DA2 is a SOTA DAC that makes music sound like music. But it certainly doesn't sound anything like vinyl or else I wouldn't own it as I can't stand the vinyl sound. |
Not sure if this has been mentioned but the writer in this article finds that the Audio Research CD9’s DAC creates analog-like sound, even compares it to vinyl. Not sure if the DAC can be used separate from the transport.
(Edit: It can and even has a USB input.)
I’m also guessing it costs a fortune.
(Edit: It does. $13,000.) |
Why would you want a analog sound ? What is the benefit . Analog should be striving for a digital sound these days . |
“The Heart wants what it wants - or else it does not care”
Emily Dickinson |
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@maplegrovemusic
i now have reel to reel tape in my system. With this extra point of reference, now having heard vinyl, tape and digital, I can really hear ‘digital’ when I listen to it.
depth of soundstage is compressed, the glass between me and ‘the event’ seems thicker and performers more pressed up agaianst it. glare cuts through at moments, glare also enlarges and distorts the scale of instruments. and there seems to be less contrast, less quiet, less space for me and my ears. It’s a bit like digital is shouting at all times (regardless of volume), like digital is an ‘all on’ proposition with no off. |
n80
”The Heart wants what it wants - or else it does not care”
Emily Dickinson
Yes he hit the nail on the head. We hear what we want to hear. There are as many different signature sounds coming from different DAC designed chips, different DAC configurations, budget and older ones. Transports and AC supply can introduce noise and change the sound. Different manufacturers with philosophies and implementation which have altered approaches. Having said all that, we all like what WE ourselves like.
Same with speakers, turntables, amps and preamps.
Someone told me once that the pops and clicks on most albums can be eliminated, since quite often that sound does not come from scratches, but dirt and debris deep in the grooves of the album. A good deep cleaning can really clear that noise out, but how many analog audiophiles have the tools and take the time to do that? Perhaps some audiophiles like the sound of those pops and clicks on albums for nostalgic, sentimental or other reasons. We like what we like... |
depth of soundstage is compressed, the glass between me and ‘the event’ seems thicker and performers more pressed up agaianst it. glare cuts through at moments, glare also enlarges and distorts the scale of instruments.... I suggest you use reference quality CDs for your evaluation. Chesky Records offers one for testing system performance. Or use a known high quality source recording; it should sound spacious and transparent. The fact that you experience glare on playback points toward the shortcomings of your DAC or DAC/transport. The other flaws you're hearing may also be attributed to the DAC. |
I feel like there needs to be some Cohesity between your system and DAC. I recently went all ATC pre/amp/speakers and tried the Bluesound and absolutely hated the sound. My wife nailed it by saying it was so bright it was obnoxious. I pulled out my old Slimdevices Transporter with the AKM4396 DAC and it does a great job converting to analog. Throw a hi-Rez file at it and it is like a warm drink on a winter day.
I can tell I will need to audition future DACs on my system or it will be an expensive case of musical chairs.
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Fwiw, I prefer 24 bit files via my Ayre QB-9 to my vinyl rig (Kenwood 500 with Benz Micro and Ayre PX-5 phono). |
Can you share your full digital chain Beetle? |
OP,
I had the same issue and question on two threads. I see splenty of great recommendations above. I seriously considered 3 of them. Unltimately I went with a Doge 7 tube DAC. I’m not a pro reviewer and so much of this is subjective so I can’t tell you it’s a panacea. But it has gotten me very very close to my vinyl rig.
My vinyl is played through a Technics 1200GAE with an ART9 MC cartridges, fed to a Manley Chinook—if that gives any indication of my analogue quality.
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I have been pretty happy for a couple years with the Exogal.Comet Plus. Then I met Benjon Zwickel of Mojo Audio. First he substituted his illuminati power supply for The plus. Subtle butt clear improvement in all aspects of the music. Then he plugged in his Mystique DAC. The difference was not subtle. Two measures into the first song revealed greater clarity, focus, pace. The music has a palpable, engaging immediacy that is irresistible. By the way, his déjà vu server knocked out my previous resolution Audio and Theta front ends.
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Actually, the problem mostly arises during the analog laser reading process. You know, what with the CD flopping around in there like crazy and the high energy scattered laser light getting into everything. 🤪 Yes, I know what you’re thinking: “But the Reed Solomon error detection/correction codes are supposed to fix any errors.”
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@rexp
Intel NUC 7i3BNH (Roon Optimized Core Kit)
> Cardas USB > Ayre QB-9 DSD
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I have owned or heard. Sounds like perfect analog to me! The Mouradian 818 version three control hub. It has the best MQA DAC I have owned or heard. Sounds like perfect and the lock! |
Is sublime when listening to Tidal Masters!
The analog section of the preamplifier is also world-class in my opinion.
This is by far the best unit I have ever owned or used. Have ever heard is the Mouradian 818 version three this is a full function preamplifier/control hub. The MQA DAC Is sublime when listening to I screwed up my first post. The best DAC IHave ever heard is the Mouradian 818 version three |
I sold my NAD M12 Digital pre-amplifier with MQA DAC . It was very good.
I purchased a Mouradian 818 version three control hub. It’s MQA DAC his other worldly! Blue away the M12. It should since it’s retail price is over $15k new. |
