03-08-13: Irvrobinson
At least with active components there are measured differences, and it's a matter of argument over what's audible. Here Irv, you are implying that if it cannot be measured, it cannot be heard. So don't say that you and Rok aren't making any implications or statements about science being your master. We say if it can be heard but not measured, science hasn't figured out what to measure yet. I can take two speakers that measure the same, yet they will not sound the same, why is that? Science can't explain that..........yet. |
03-09-13: Audiolabyrinth
I have a financial incentive,,I will bet thousands of dollars that anybody that can not hear a difference between Taralabs zero gold,nordost odin against whatever cables that a non believer that cables do not make a difference can produce! Easy there big fella, you do understand that if you don't want to hear differences, you won't. Hell, for thousands of dollars, I would tell you that I couldn't hear any difference either. ;) |
The audio road is littered with stuff that measured great and sounded like crap. |
OK, Rock. My cable vs. the cheapo cable OF YOUR CHOICE! Let's tweak this challenge: you send me the cheapo, non-audiophile (generic, "came-in-the-box") cable of your choice and I will live with it for one week. Then you come over, and we do the test as stated above. Yes, my cable is store bought, and not tweaked.
You win, you get my copy of KOB. I win, you stop your rants against cables and Coltrane; that's enough for me. We post the results. The invitation is open; just let me know. |
@ chayro,Hi,I was a professional musician for years my self!,good cables even make a difference on microphones versus cheap ones,I know I was the singer!,thou not as a big of difference than with cables for high-end audio systems!,@ rok2id,To tell you the truth I like Belden cables!,They are very good for the money,back in 1997 I had a krell fpb 200 amplifier that came stock with a beldin a/c power cord,me and some friends put alot of money together to rent alot of after market a/c power cords from the cable company,I recall we rented 5 different brands at the $600.00 price point,cables are very system dependent!,on that krell amp,the beldin stock cord was better sounding in every way!,the other cables sounded like crap!,still here, we have a difference in the sound of cables!,rok2id you have a good cable for the pricepoint you paid!,better than alot of cables costing a little more!,obviously you had to have heard a difference with the blue jean beldin cables versus lowes hardware store brand cables,I believe this,you bought the blue jean beldin cables..cheers,and happy listening to all! |
I think the real problem here is that people on both sides of the argument are letting their emotions dictate where all of this is going. As the thread goes on, everyone just gets more aggravated and the insults keep piling up; on both sides.
"Here Irv, you are implying that if it cannot be measured, it cannot be heard. So don't say that you and Rok aren't making any implications or statements about science being your master. We say if it can be heard but not measured, science hasn't figured out what to measure yet.
I can take two speakers that measure the same, yet they will not sound the same, why is that? Science can't explain that..........yet."
I just want to clarify what I think we are talking about here. And that is, are we able to hear differences in the way differences cables sound? That's the question I want to answer. Issues such as whether one think cables are priced fairly or how much of a difference they make, is for another thread. That stuff is just personal opinion; everyones answer is valid.
Looking at the above quote from Jmcgrogan2, I have to disagree. Just because you can't measure the differences in the way cables sound, using traditional measurements, doesn't mean you can't use science to prove the differences exist. Measuring is just one scientific method. If all we are looking to do is confirm that 2 cables can sound different from each other, a well conducted listening test is just as valid.
I've worked in this industry for most of my adult life and had the opportunity to be involved in many listening tests over the years (Not all of the tests involved cables. We tested other components, as well.). The results are very clear. Even factoring in for error the evidence was such that there could be no possibility of a chance occurrence. The differences were real.
I fully understand that I won't even come close to changing anyones opinion on the matter. And that's fine. No one has any good reason to take my word for anything. I will suggest, though, since so many people take the time to post on threads like this, they really care about this issue. Why not just get together with a few people that share this common interest, and conduct some of your own tests? I can't tell you what the results will be, but I'm pretty sure no one will regret taking part in it. |
....(and) "What a miracle it is that someone can reproduce something that is capable of touching our emotions" - Frogman.
My nomination for the Nobel Prize!!!! |
Test this... Regina Carter - "Paganini: After A Dream" |
03-10-13: Zd542
Measuring is just one scientific method. If all we are looking to do is confirm that 2 cables can sound different from each other, a well conducted listening test is just as valid. I'd like to add to Zd's characteristically knowledgeable and level-headed post the self-evident point that analysis also has its place in the scientific method. To cite a few examples, the first two of which are somewhat extreme but not completely unrealistic: It is easily possible to demonstrate by analysis that the difference between 10 foot interconnect cables having capacitances of 50 pf/ft and 10 pf/ft is likely be audible to those with unimpaired hearing if used at the output of a resistor-based passive preamp having typically high output impedance. It is easily possible to demonstrate by analysis that the difference between a 20 foot speaker cable having high inductance and one having low inductance is likely to be audible to those with unimpaired hearing if used with electrostatic speakers whose impedance descends to 1 ohm or so at 20 kHz (which is not uncommon). It is easily possible to demonstrate by analysis that differences in phono cable capacitance will have a profound effect on the sonics of moving magnet cartridges. So cable differences can be audible. The question then becomes how much less extreme can the circumstances become before reports of claimed differences are sufficiently implausible that they are more likely to be the result of the placebo effect or failure to recognize and control extraneous variables. Obviously the answer will vary considerably from system to system and from listener to listener, and each listener will have to make his or her own judgment about that. My bottom-line feeling, however, is that as with most things in life the best answer is likely to fall somewhere in the middle ground between the ideological extremes. Issues such as whether one think cables are priced fairly or how much of a difference they make, is for another thread. That stuff is just personal opinion; everyones answer is valid. Not sure that those should necessarily be treated as separate issues. It often seems to be implicit in the arguments of those at the "believer" end of the spectrum that the existence of differences suggests that "more expensive" has a high likelihood of being "better." And the basic motivation of those at the "skeptic" end of the spectrum often seems to be to dispel that belief. For the several reasons I expressed in my earlier posts in this thread, and perhaps for other more cynical reasons that could be cited, my belief is that the correlation between performance and price, while significantly greater than zero, should not be expected to be a strong one. Best regards, -- Al |
I can't comment on the value of high priced cables because my money would be better spent buying better gear, but I suspect they can tweak sound one way or the other. In my mid-fi priced system, 12/2 Romex unterminated sounds good. Easy to find too.
One question I have: when you crack the cover on your gear, have you seen the wiring on the input/output terminals? Does it look like Purist or Anno Domini or Cantibile Beatificus or whatever? Mine looks like 14 gauge automotive wire. I then wonder why I would finish the circuit with an expensive cable when it starts and ends with basic copper cable? |
Audiolabyrinth, wow... I bet you've really been enjoying this, LOL! send for more popocorn now!!! Thank you for the kind comments regarding my post 3.7.13! And ditto the respect sir. You too Jmcgrogan, Frogman, Zd542 I enjoyed your comments also. Nonoise, you are a true poet! Props to you for the highly thoughtful posts well worded.
Is science capable of explaining the differences we hear in cables? Measurements do prove differences in cabling exists. There has been some real research done with things like current bunching & skin effect. Also characteristic impedance of cabling which involves series resistance and series inductance, shunt capacitance, shunt conductance, etc. Learn about the latest cable research if ya need some cable science so badly.
When most music/audio enthusiasts or musicians hear something like a cable improving the quality of the listening experience, do they care so much about the reasons why? No not really. One will buy it, build it, do it anyway just because it sounds "better" than before and they can hear the difference.
I suppose the cable no-believers can hear no audible difference between vacuum tubes either? Yet, tube rolling has become a popular sport! I guess there is NO reason for adding upgrade wiring, hi grade capacitors, higher quality resistors, connectors, binding post, etc to our hi-end components and speakers either... that's just hype too correct? Oh, and why would we ever send our beloved 62' Fender Telecaster out to the custom shop?? Why?? Finally, cable non-believers, why on earth would we ever do something like rewire a tonearm???
Because it sounds better now than it did before and we can hear the difference.
|
Al, I of course agree, and called out cables needing to be application-appropriate earlier (only to have Nonoise twist my words around), but you know full well that's not what many of these folks are arguing for. They're arguing that two cables that measure alike can sound different. That even connectors can sound different.
To everyone else, regarding what we can and can't measure, I've got news for the non-technical among us, the level of design sophistication that goes in audio system cables, the frequency range and the voltages involved, are just so much child's play in modern electrical engineering. If you've got a new Intel-based PC you have 8 giga-transfer per conductor signals in it, using some incredibly complex signaling techniques. Just coming us with the design rules for circuitry like that takes years of research. Audio cables are first or second year BSEE stuff.
The only thing underlying the controversy with cables, IMO, is that one can interchange them. I don't hear anyone pondering audible differences in circuit board materials, single versus double-sided circuit boards, or the gauge or type of internal wiring, and I think that's only because you can't interchange them. Otherwise I think I would see posts about low-loss versus FR-4 circuit boards. |
"I think that's only because you can't interchange them. Otherwise I think I would see posts about low-loss versus FR-4 circuit boards."
So True! They worry about the stuff that's 'easy' to 'upgrade'. |
Cables are important, however you can get to 90% of the highest qualty with very small price if you are careful. |
I just picked up a set of interconnects(installed between receiver and my McCormack amp) that made a pronounced improvement to my sound. If anybody could not tell the difference, they may as well just buy a setup from Best Buy and be done with it. |
Measurements do prove differences in cabling exists. There has been some real research done with things like current bunching & skin effect. Also characteristic impedance of cabling which involves series resistance and series inductance, shunt capacitance, shunt conductance, etc. Learn about the latest cable research if ya need some cable science so badly. Baloney. Current bunching? Skin effect is irrelevant at audio frequencies. You seem to be learning "science" from cable product marketing material. |
Waxwaves, Thanks for the kind words.
Don't let 'em get you down.
All the best,
Nonoise |
****....(and) "What a miracle it is that someone can reproduce something that is capable of touching our emotions" - Frogman.
My nomination for the Nobel Prize!!!!****. - Isochronism
Damn!! I am speechless; for a change. :-) |
But not for long....
Oftentimes, when trying to understand a posters point of view, I find value in looking for patterns in a poster's over-all posting history. As with most things, not just audio, I like to read between the lines. This approach is hardly "scientific" and not applicable in all cases; but still, it can tell me a lot about a poster's priorities and viewpoint.
I have been trying very hard to understand Irv's stubbornness re the position of the overwhelming majority of posters in this thread on the subject of cables. While his stance is fairly clear, there are also some inconsistencies and a convenient "out" when he leans on the idea that his premise is based on the "fact" that cables that are "properly designed for a given application" will sound the same. But, I don't want to revisit all that. In looking at his posting history, I notice two significant things. For me, one in particular speakes volumes about where a person's head is at.
-This is far from Irv's only thread where he has taken the minority position of trying to debunk others' opinions about the audibility of differences in cables, and tweaks in general.
- Even more importantly (for me) is that unlike the posting history of the overwhelming majority of other contributors to this discussion, he has not made a single contribution nor comment on the subject of music; not a one.
Draw your own conclusions. |
No doubt for me cables can and often do sound different. But not always. No rule says they will or must. I think there are probably ways to quantify how they might in electrical terms to back it up. Almarg, an experienced EE with an interest, is the best I have seen here at doing that based on principles of EE.
IS there a scientific study that supports this? Maybe but I have not seen one. Still the theory is consistent with what I hear so I can accept it.
Also no doubt that vendors hype their products based on the supposed "fact" that wires CAN sound different. Each has their own science or pseudo-science or perhaps "fantasy" to explain how their unique "innovation" works. Some are more plausible, some are less.
In the end, when one is able to predict resulting sound based on its design, and the predictions can be statistically or mathematically demonstrated as being better than if done randomly, we will have something to sink our teeth into. We could have a long wit though. Meanwhile, may the better ears win. |
Oftentimes, when trying to understand a posters point of view, I find value in looking for patterns in a poster's over-all posting history. As with most things, not just audio, I like to read between the lines. This approach is hardly "scientific" and not applicable in all cases; but still, it can tell me a lot about a poster's priorities and viewpoint.
I have been trying very hard to understand Irv's stubbornness re the position of the overwhelming majority of posters in this thread on the subject of cables. While his stance is fairly clear, there are also some inconsistencies and a convenient "out" when he leans on the idea that his premise is based on the "fact" that cables that are "properly designed for a given application" will sound the same. But, I don't want to revisit all that. In looking at his posting history, I notice two significant things. For me, one in particular speakes volumes about where a person's head is at.
-This is far from Irv's only thread where he has taken the minority position of trying to debunk others' opinions about the audibility of differences in cables, and tweaks in general.
- Even more importantly (for me) is that unlike the posting history of the overwhelming majority of other contributors to this discussion, he has not made a single contribution nor comment on the subject of music; not a one.
Draw your own conclusions. My stubbornness? If I were in a room full of creationists, who argued that evolution was incorrect and had holes it, and couldn't explain everything, would you expect me to bend to the opinion of the majority and surrender my position? I hope not. This discussion is very similar to my example; I feel like I'm in a room full of creationists. The part about me not posting about music is irrelevant in a cable forum, sort of like bringing up that I've not posted on spiritual matters in a discussion about creationism. As for my motivations, Frogman, I can make things absolutely clear for you, there's no guessing required. I find this whole cable controversy to be a pox on a hobby I've been involved with for decades, and every so often I entertain myself and break the monotony of whatever I'm working on by putting up the objective point of view and letting the dogs bark, so to speak. I find argument fun, and apparently so do many of you, because you're here arguing with me, and bringing popcorn. |
Hi Irv, actually, I am not arguing. Arguing, discussing; whatever. I truly am trying to understand the other side of the argument; which, frankly, I don't see a lot of evidence of on your part. But, for the record, my reference to posting history was for ALL posting history. Yes, this thread is about cables, but this forum is about much more than cables; including music. See, from my vantage point it is almost impossible (pointless) to discuss any aspect of this hobby without, at least, some reference to music. I think that this is the core difference between the two mind-sets.
BTW, the offer/challenge that I made to Rok earlier is to you as well; if interested. Might be fun, and at the very least some good music will be listened to. |
Irvrobinson & Rok2id, what cables have you guys used in your systems?
It's possible the cables you used have similar sonic characteristics so can't find a difference in your system?
When I was using Krell amps, MIT and Transparent were my favorite cables. Their IC sounds the same but MIT SC is more open where Transparent is darker. If you throw in Nordost, the sound completely changes and it was very very OBVIOUS. |
I, like some here, just like the banter. It's amusing to see how far a person will go to make an illogical argument.
However at the end of the day, the 10,000 pound gorilla stills sits in the middle of the room!
THE MILLION DOLLAR PRIZE!! Just demostrate you can hear wire! That is almost TOO easy. Hell, I wish I could hear wire. I'd be cruising in my 911 Turbo this minute. But I guess you wire folks just don't wanna take advantage of the poor misguided soul.
BTW, just curious. Can any of you Ferengi(stng) hear the differences between two brands of 'mere mortal' wire? Say, monster and blue jeans?
And also, why do you say 'different' instead of 'better.' Don't you buy wire to improve your sound?
Cheers |
It seems that every one missed my post!3-10-13 @chayro,the main part of the post was directed @ rok2id,whatever!I will say my facts again that is the forum buster for non believers,Hi Irvrobinson,I believe you hear just fine!,you have after market high-end audio cables on your system,obviously you had to hear a difference with the cables you have versus lowes hardware store brand cables,I believe this,you bought the high-end cables you have!,The samething can be said about Rok2id,He has the Beldin Blue jean cables,HE hears fine as well!again,Obviously he had to hear a difference between the Blue jean beldin cables versus lowes hardware store brand of cables,again,I believe this!,He bought the blue jean beldin cables,It does not take science to see between the lines here!,they hear cable sound differences just fine!however,I believe they take the stance that they do, is they do not agree with the high cost of cables such as mine!,believe me when I say this,I do not agree with the high cost of cables myself!,Irv and rok,unfortunally I had to pay the cost of admission!the pay off is incredible to say the very least!,no not all high priced cables are worth the money,I agree!the same can be said about componets,lord knows I have seen my share of modest priced componets,speakers,cables,etc..blow the doors off of some multi thousands of dollar equipment out there,its not common,but it happens,to tell you two gentlemen the truth,I got very lucky that my cables are in the few out there that are the best available,I am blessed from God above to have a system period that I have, and I thank him daily for what he has given me!,the synergy between the system and the cables I have,to me of course,Is flawless!,I know the both of you gentlemen do not want to believe what I am about to say next,My sound would not be possible without the cables I have!,very emotional,chills running rampid all over a listeners body with tears of joy flying about,The music is so real sounding!IMHO!,the reason I expressed this to you gentlemen is I have never had eanybody over my house after the listening experience of my system that believe cables do not make a difference!A toast to all,cheers! |
It seems that every one missed my post!3-10-13 @chayro,the main part of the post was directed @ rok2id,whatever!I will say my facts again that is the forum buster for non believers,Hi Irvrobinson,I believe you hear just fine!,you have after market high-end audio cables on your system,obviously you had to hear a difference with the cables you have versus lowes hardware store brand cables,I believe this,you bought the high-end cables you have!,The samething can be said about Rok2id,He has the Beldin Blue jean cables,HE hears fine as well!again,Obviously he had to hear a difference between the Blue jean beldin cables versus lowes hardware store brand of cables,again,I believe this!,He bought the blue jean beldin cables,It does not take science to see between the lines here!,they hear cable sound differences just fine!however,I believe they take the stance that they do, is they do not agree with the high cost of cables such as mine!,believe me when I say this,I do not agree with the high cost of cables myself!,Irv and rok,unfortunally I had to pay the cost of admission!the pay off is incredible to say the very least!,no not all high priced cables are worth the money,I agree!the same can be said about componets,lord knows I have seen my share of modest priced componets,speakers,cables,etc..blow the doors off of some multi thousands of dollar equipment out there,its not common,but it happens,to tell you two gentlemen the truth,I got very lucky that my cables are in the few out there that are the best available,I am blessed from God above to have a system period that I have, and I thank him daily for what he has given me!,the synergy between the system and the cables I have,to me of course,Is flawless!,I know the both of you gentlemen do not want to believe what I am about to say next,My sound would not be possible without the cables I have!,very emotional,chills running rampid all over a listeners body with tears of joy flying about,The music is so real sounding!IMHO!,the reason I expressed this to you gentlemen is I have never had eanybody over my house after the listening experience of my system that believe cables do not make a difference!A toast to all,cheers! |
There is no doubt I can hear clearly identifiable differences between using MIT terminator versus DNM Reson ICs in my main rig, in particular between amp and pre-amp. These are night and day in design and concept, so I would attribute it to that, an extreme case perhaps.
With most other applications in my gear, differences are more subtle, in some cases minor or not significant enough for me to take notice or care. Like most things, its not a night/day, yes/no thing to answer. Its a matter of magnitude on some relative scale, with differences ranging from very significant to insignificant.
I even believe two fuses can sound different for many reasons, however I do not care enough about it to spend any time investigating. As long as my gear is good and in good operating condition, that's good enough for me. YMMV of course. |
Rok,
Banter is one thing, now you're just trolling. How are the acoustics under that bridge? :-)
All the best,
Nonoise |
What would we do without Nonoise and his rapier wit! One day he might even answer a question!
Cheers |
Rok, well, I declare! It appears that you are softening your stance; that's a good thing, IMO.
A couple of thoughts: Logic will only get one so far. Music and logic don't always mix. Listen to 20th century classical serial music to hear the ultimate expression of logic in music, and note (pun intended) how in most cases (not all) it doesn't sound like music at all. And yes, I understand how from some logicians' viewpoint, one has nothing to do with the other. That's just not MY idea of logic
****Hell, I wish I could hear wire****
This may come as surprise to you, but don't worry about it. Just don't insist on telling us we can't; at least not in a provocative way, anyway. But really, don't worry about it. You can appreciate the beauty in Mariano's playing, and as far as I am concerned that matters a hell of a lot more than all the wire stuff. Now,
****BTW, just curious. Can any of you Ferengi(stng) hear the differences between two brands of 'mere mortal' wire? Say, monster and blue jeans?****
Yup, you better believe it. If you ever decide to take me up on my offer, we can make those the two control cables. Just let me live with them for a few days and let's listen to some 'Trane. No, wait! Sorry, some early Wayne Shorter.
BTW, have you heard his record with Milton Nascimento "Native Dancer"? Beautiful! |
Hi Irv, actually, I am not arguing. Arguing, discussing; whatever. I truly am trying to understand the other side of the argument; which, frankly, I don't see a lot of evidence of on your part. But, for the record, my reference to posting history was for ALL posting history. Yes, this thread is about cables, but this forum is about much more than cables; including music. See, from my vantage point it is almost impossible (pointless) to discuss any aspect of this hobby without, at least, some reference to music. I think that this is the core difference between the two mind-sets. My evidence is that these cables measure identically in terms of the audio signal they output, that they follow well-understood mathematical models. Don't get confused by this discussion of capacitance and inductance, even if those parameters vary a bit it doesn't mean that the audio signal that comes out the other end of the cable is modified in some significant way - that's a different matter, and depends on the designs of the electronics or speakers being discussed. As for the rest of your post, it is completely analogous to the discussion of spirituality when discussing evolution. Music and cables are orthogonal. The cables only know about electrical signals, not about music. You are simply obfuscating the issues here. You are not trying at all to understand the other side of the argument. It is disingenuous to present yourself that way. If you tried to understand how the technology worked that makes your audio avocation possible you would understand the illogic of the position that cables can have audible signatures. Like I've said, the only way to make an audio cable have an audible signature is to purposely design it to abuse some simple parameter of conduction. |
I have Shorter and Nascimento (yauarete), but no Shorter with Nascimento. I had no idea I had so much latin stuff until you came along. eerrr.... thanks????
Let us pray that 'early' shorter is not anything like 'current' shorter!
The mere mortal cables I mentioned, I was asking can you ID them when they are compared to each other? Or does a guru cable have to be involved?
My stance on wire has not changed. I will argue up until folks start getting nasty, then I stop. It's possible have fun and be serious and speak the truth, all at the same time. However the million dollar thingy is very compelling. Human pride and greed being what it is.
I don't have 'native dancer' but I have Nana Vasconcelos doing 'Rain Dance'
I better get rid of this stuff before someone finds out, and labels me 'progressive' aaaaaiiiiiieeeeeeeee.
Cheers |
What cables have you guys used in your systems? I have several friends in the audio world who believe as you do, and have brought over Audioquest, Cardas, and Nordost cables. They all claim to have heard huge differences in my system, before and after. I couldn't tell the difference. Of course I wasn't expecting any differences, they all were. Funny how that worked out. |
Very interesting Irvrobinson! So your friends were able to hear differences in your system but you can't?
I've had Cardas, Audioquest and Nordost in my system and they are very very different. |
I have several friends in the audio world who believe as you do, and have brought over Audioquest, Cardas, and Nordost cables. They all claim to have heard huge differences in my system, before and after. I couldn't tell the difference. Of course I wasn't expecting any differences, they all were. Funny how that worked out.
So we are all the same, we all hear what we choose to beleive. Believe you will hear differences, and you will hear differences. Believe that you will not hear differences, and you will not hear differences. |
****Let us pray that 'early' shorter is not anything like 'current' shorter!****
I thought you said (in a different thread) that you had some early Shorter? So, you should know the answer; even if I don't agree with your implication.
****The mere mortal cables I mentioned, I was asking can you ID them when they are compared to each other? Or does a guru cable have to be involved?****
No, guru cable does not have to be involved. Just the two cheapos. |
Irv, ****As for the rest of your post, it is completely analogous to the discussion of spirituality when discussing evolution**** We actually agree on something. But, the mistake that evolutionists make is believing that evolution precludes creationism. Clearly, this is not the place to have THAT debate, but I agree the analogy is there. You may find this to be interesting reading; even if, as I suspect, you will vehemently disagree. I think it illustrates aspects of this debate perfectly. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/31/opinion/31iht-edbrown.1.5943349.html |
It seems that every one missed my post!3-10-13 @chayro,the main part of the post was directed @ rok2id,whatever!I will say my facts again that is the forum buster for non believers,Hi Irvrobinson,I believe you hear just fine!,you have after market high-end audio cables on your system,obviously you had to hear a difference with the cables you have versus lowes hardware store brand cables,I believe this,you bought the high-end cables you have!,The samething can be said about Rok2id,He has the Beldin Blue jean cables,HE hears fine as well!again,Obviously he had to hear a difference between the Blue jean beldin cables versus lowes hardware store brand of cables,again,I believe this!,He bought the blue jean beldin cables,It does not take science to see between the lines here!,they hear cable sound differences just fine!however,I believe they take the stance that they do, is they do not agree with the high cost of cables such as mine!,believe me when I say this,I do not agree with the high cost of cables myself!,Irv and rok,unfortunally I had to pay the cost of admission!the pay off is incredible to say the very least!,no not all high priced cables are worth the money,I agree!the same can be said about componets,lord knows I have seen my share of modest priced componets,speakers,cables,etc..blow the doors off of some multi thousands of dollar equipment out there,its not common,but it happens,to tell you two gentlemen the truth,I got very lucky that my cables are in the few out there that are the best available,I am blessed from God above to have a system period that I have, and I thank him daily for what he has given me!,the synergy between the system and the cables I have,to me of course,Is flawless!,I know the both of you gentlemen do not want to believe what I am about to say next,My sound would not be possible without the cables I have!,very emotional,chills running rampid all over a listeners body with tears of joy flying about,The music is so real sounding!IMHO!,the reason I expressed this to you gentlemen is I have never had eanybody over my house after the listening experience of my system that believe cables do not make a difference!A toast to all,cheers! You might consider reducing your caffeine intake. :-) |
@ Irvrobinson,how in the world did you know I was drinking coffee when I made the post you reposted?,LOL!,the reason I sent two was not the caffeine intake,some of my post seem like they did not make it here,so,I wanted to make sure you and rok2id read what I wanted to make clear,thats all. happy listening! |
@ Irvrobinson,how in the world did you know I was drinking coffee when I made the post you reposted?,LOL!,the reason I sent two was not the caffeine intake,some of my post seem like they did not make it here,so,I wanted to make sure you and rok2id read what I wanted to make clear,thats all. happy listening! |
So we are all the same, we all hear what we choose to believe. Believe you will hear differences, and you will hear differences. Believe that you will not hear differences, and you will not hear differences. Sort of, though you're turning up the contrast a bit much. I don't know about the "we're all the same" part. I think that expectations can play a significant role when the differences are subtle or . Of course, I understand that some of you believe these differences aren't subtle. |
Some people have more specific expectations than others. When you are listening for a very specific sound, you are more likely to note any differences. That alone might account for it. That and/or the fact that not all wires necessarily sound very different. There is not a whole lot of difference in design and concept behind many. |
Good post Audiolabyrinth, always enjoy your posts. Can tell you are good natured fellow that is enthusiastic about the discussion. You too Nonoise, thanks.
Irvrobinson, you might consider reducing your intake of Haterade! I bet that if scientific proof were under your nose, you would probably dismiss it as product marketing. Current bunching causes resistance and that is not efficient. The research has been done and companies like Analysis Plus, Tara Labs, and more have created cables that allow your sound system to perform better sonically.
Gotta mention the Incognito wiring harness for Rega tonearms too. The improvement in sound quality when using Incognito vs the stock Rega tonearm wire is significant to say the least. One of the most notable wiring improvements I have experienced. The most notable Improvement being Analysis Plus Solo Crystal Oval!
Also, Paul Hales chose to put Cardas wire in my Revelation 3s, thanks Paul! Steve McCormack will use upgrade wire in upgrades to amplifiers, etc, so will Dan Wright. The list goes on and on, and smart people will do and have done all these things because it makes music sound better. |
if someone came from mars and read all of the posts, there would be only one conclusion:
the posters are a bunch of oc audiophiles.
i am not from mars so if the shoe fits....
one might think about the proposition:
why is there so much discussion and when will it end ?
a corollary would be: who cares whether cables are subject to hype or not ?
plenty of products have their qualities exaggerated and people accept it and don't obsess about it. |
Cables...good bad or indifferent.. cost to the buyer vs cost to the maker is just not justifiable. I don't care how much better one thinks the sound is or is not. If I'm wrong, just buy all Odins and enjoy them.. alone. |
@ mrtennis,there is nothing oc about wanting music to sound as real as possible,I call it love for music,someone buys a ferrai loves driving performance,for me,it is the same.cheers! |
Where are you at pops?disclose your experience with cables! |
Where are you at pops?disclose your experience with cables! |
Irvrobinson, you might consider reducing your intake of Haterade! I bet that if scientific proof were under your nose, you would probably dismiss it as product marketing. Current bunching causes resistance and that is not efficient. The research has been done and companies like Analysis Plus, Tara Labs, and more have created cables that allow your sound system to perform better sonically. I've read the Analysis Plus web site. Hollow oval cables. Technical-looking prose, complete with formulae and footnotes. Still unconvincing. Bringing up skin effect is the first indicator of something being off-color. Even at 20KHz skin effect is just not a significant calculated or measured factor in cable performance. Bringing up cable design issues that are relevant in conductors that carry gigahertz frequencies, and then just extrapolate them downward to audio frequencies, where those effects in reality are irrelevant, isn't presenting information honestly. For example, look at Figure 3 on their white paper (981) page. Read closely. That chart is in milliohms per 100 feet of cable. So let's assume for a moment that chart is accurate, how many of us are running 100 feet of speaker cable? And they have to go to milliohms to make the differences apparent? (I'll assume the chart is accurate, though I wonder about how they arrived at those 12 gauge cable figures. Whatever.) Then they keep going to a discussion, complete with a chart with numbers in it, showing how speakers don't have a constant impedance across the frequency range. How quaint. Did you notice their choice of speakers in that chart? The Bose 901, JBL TI250... well, they made me chuckle. I wonder how many Bose 901 customers buy expensive cables? Doesn't this make anyone wonder what their point is? Yes, all speakers have impedance curves that vary by frequency, sometimes by a lot. So what? And then my favorite part, bringing up EMI effects on speaker cables. They even throw in some technical-looking square wave figures, without telling you the frequency of the square waves. 100KHz? 1MHz? Who knows? Speaker cables have such a low impedance and carry high enough voltages that EMI isn't a relevant factor; that's why speaker cables aren't shielded like interconnects. Analysis Plus is taking some technical factors relevant for cables carrying signals well beyond the range of audio signals and trying to convince people they are relevant for audio cables. It's not what I would call true snake oil, but it's not being open with their customers either. And I'm not trying to pick on Analysis Plus, you just brought them up. Audioquest has published worse. |
I am in agreement with a lot of Irv's comments about the Analysis Plus papers, shown here and here. However, I would rate the quality, intelligence, and technical persuasiveness of those presentations MUCH higher than that of the vast majority of cable-related marketing literature I have seen, which in many other cases drives my BS meter to full scale or beyond. One major reason for that, among several, is that the factors they discuss are generally presented in a QUANTITATIVE manner, as opposed to just describing an effect and saying that they have found it to make a significant difference. (Irv, with respect to your question about the frequency of the square waves shown in Figures 5 and 6 of the first reference, the number "10" shown above the figures is presumably microseconds per division, so they are 20 kHz square waves. The figure at the bottom of page 2 of the second reference, the pdf document, appears to confirm that interpretation). Regarding the resistance figure shown for 100 feet of 12 gauge wire, 200 milliohms (0.2 ohms) is in the right ballpark. It is actually about 0.16 ohms according to this wire gauge table. More generally, I would make the following points about the resistance rise at high frequencies which they depict as resulting from "current bunching" and skin effect. 1)Although they indicate that all of their cables are designed based on similar philosophies, that resistance rise has no relevance to analog interconnect cables, for which cable resistance is utterly insignificant with respect to the load impedance. And in most cases it will also be insignificant in relation to the output impedance of the component driving the cable (to which it adds, since the two impedances are in series). 2)For speaker cables, I suppose it is conceivable that a rise from 0.2 ohms per 100 feet to 0.5 ohms per 100 feet at 20 kHz, which their cable avoids, when extrapolated down to more typical lengths might make a VERY slight difference in the upper treble region in some systems, especially if speaker impedance is low at high frequencies (as in the case of many electrostatics). The impedance of dynamic speakers, on the other hand, generally rises significantly in the upper treble region and beyond, and in those cases I can't see how a rise of 0.3 ohms per 100 feet at 20 kHz would make the slightest difference. 3)It should be kept in mind that resistance, and therefore the significance of a given percent variation of that resistance as a function of frequency, can be reduced by simply going to a heavier wire gauge. 4)It should be kept in mind that the effects resistance might have in a speaker cable or analog interconnect cable, if any, will be directly proportional to the length of the cable. The shorter the cable the lower the resistance, at 20 kHz and other frequencies as well as at DC. All of that said, as I indicated earlier in this post I do give their papers excellent marks compared to those of most or all of their competition, and if I personally were shopping for cables in their price range (which I'm not) I would certainly put them at the top of my list of candidates. Mapman, thanks for the kind comment in one of your recent posts. Regards, -- Al |
