@whart : "On discourse and what you like or don't--Make it better. That's all you can do"
Amen to that.
Amen to that.
Do posters intend to hurt the feelings of other members?
It is usually the case that members engage in spirited, often passionate, discussions in threads. That’s normal. Regrettably, often those discussions veer off the tracks, where members are offended or genuinely have their feelings hurt by the content of others’ post(s).
Do posters intend to hurt the feelings of other members? Your thoughts?
Do posters intend to hurt the feelings of other members? Your thoughts?
74 responses Add your response
@n80- here's my thinking on that- elevate the discussion on the subjects of interest and ignore the rest. The philosophical discussions tend to get out of hand sometimes, but I guess anything can go astray. I try to contribute where I can, acknowledge my limitations (which are vast) and enjoy the ride. Life's too short, etc. Walking away from the terminal is a healthy thing in my estimation. I've also found that, in many things, my perspective changes over time. Every five years or so when I was working my career- I'd say, "why am I doing this?" I'd go through some soul searching, and eventually recommit with a slightly different view than I had when I was starting, at the age of 24. You've been around the block. There is no perfect place where all is good (though Austin is pretty close except in the summer, when we pay for the unicorns and rainbows with relentless heat). On discourse and what you like or don't--Make it better. That's all you can do-- and others may follow or at least you'll engage with people of like temperament. FWIW, I think you've been an interesting contributor here- you are engaged in music, and are interested in the 'why' of it. That, as you probably know, is what keeps us vital- that inquisitiveness, and willingness to be open to new/different. End of kumbaya. I do have fun with this stuff and am always learning, even if it is "re-learning" what I thought I already knew. regards, bill hart |
Nothing like meanness and disrespect to draw in the members of a website essentially dedicated to music. For my part, I wouldn't miss it and don't miss it on other sites where it does not exist. Not claiming sainthood here either. I'm quick to be snarky and slow to turn the other cheek. Here anyway. On sites where I know it is not part of the site culture I keep it in check much better. When I found that I was wasting my existence with FaceBook I walked away. Deactivated the account. Will never go back. I deactivated my Audiogon account recently too. Was gone maybe a month. Got tired of the nasty responses and my nasty responses in return. When asked why I was leaving I wrote "toxic forum environment". Is it really that bad here? No, not compared to the majority of other places people interact on the internet. But why does an audio site need nastiness to keep us coming back? It is everywhere else. Why come here for more. Anyway, in an attempt not to be a snowflake I decided to come back, to try to change what I can about ME and how I respond without expecting anyone else to change FOR me. And to avoid discussions that have nothing to do with music/audio. Still a work in progress. C- at this point. |
I do not think folks come here for the arguments or the fights. I think those things in a small measure act as a spice to make the place interesting. Also it is a person thing. Some folks who make noise' are the very same folks who post good stuff. I am certain, if this place was some sort of 'safe space' My az would be long ago kicked to the curb. Just sayin'. Naturally nothing would be lost, since I never write anything worth reading. And it would save me hours of wasted existence.... |
@elizabeth if the reason people come here is for the arguments and incivility then you are correct. I'd like to think they come to discuss hi-fi and music. Maybe I'm wrong. Kind of reminds me of the Monty Python skit where people come pay to have an argument. If that's what Audiogon is....well....just as stupid as that skit....but without the humor. |
I have to consider my own thin skin posting here or anywhere else. I choose my words for the sake of discussion, not argumentation. I will almost always lose an argument, since I have not been very good at it. Discussion, on the other hand is something that I have an interest in, whether I agree with the other party or not. I can learn, or even judge from statements of feeling rather than fact (whatever that is). This can be a way to try something new, or realize that you might want to avoid new discussion with that party in the future. |
Look at it a different way. This forum exists to make money. If it clearly lost the site owners money, it would be long gone. So what takes place to make the site owners think it is worth the bother? Number one it attracts customers. Folks who use, or just READ the threads matter. Since when it comes time to buy something used. They will comes to THIS site to buy it, 100% that is the ’bottom line’So ,with that, what makes the forums worth the bother to READ for anyone wandering the web? Certainly NOT dull as dust drivel. People, particularly passive readers only, want some level of tension, something new, something to remember, but perhaps not fist fights on every page? The readers, (who outnumber the posters) want to read something interesting. When you permanently kick out, or even temporarily, to the point a lot of folks quit and never come back, you loose the folks who are interesting, who are passionate, and who write stuff others want to read! Even almarg needs someone else to post something to comment on! ..So what level of tension is the right amount? IMO it is exactly AS IT IS NOW. To me more moderating would just make the place dull. Many of the interesting folks who actually answer questions,, start silly threads to have arguments, would leave. Then what? The burden falls on a few. and soon all you have are cobwebs, and no readers. Whom, to me, are the juice, the folks who actually make the place work! (for the owners) are all those folks who never post, just read! If it was more violent, too many would become afraid to post, or just hate the place. So the current level is just fine. Like that favorite drinking place, change even one little thing.. Suddenly the place is empty, Everyone went somewhere else. So for the folks who want to change it to some form of ’safe space’? you are crazy. LOL |
whart I think every chat board has a "culture" and from what I’ve witnessed over many years on other boards in diverse fields is that someone who comes on blazing is not going to get a positive reception. A little humility goes a long way. This board is far from the worst in my experience- most people seem pretty willing to help ...I agree. For those who think the site would benefit from more stringent moderation, I suggest use of the "Report this" flag, which is quite effective. If it’s not, or you have a larger concern, it’s worth reaching out to Audiogon support using the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of the page. I have found them to be very responsive. Audiogon staff will absolutely give forum violators a temporary suspension or - in extreme cases - ban them entirely. But sometimes they need a little input from us first so that they are aware of what’s happening in the forums. |
@whart I agree about forums having a culture. That's why I mentioned that I believe that culture has to come from the top. That's the owner and the owner's moderating staff. I have also been a moderator for a very large photography web site. The owners had a primary goal from the outset that it would be a friendly, helpful site. They had many moderators, all of us volunteers, and we clearly understood what their goals were. This created a culture of friendliness and civility that has been ongoing for nearly 20 years now. Yes, it is a lot of work. I also participate in a tractor oriented web site that is the nicest most helpful website, not to mention the most useful website on the widest array of topics I've ever been to. It seems to be self moderated for the most part. On both of these sites trolls pop up but they never stay....or they get the boot. Luminous Landscape is another photography website that is friendly and helpful. It is a smaller volume site and it is a paid membership. The level of discussion is high. The level of contention and in-civility is near zero and all topics are allowed. Audiogon is tainted by a small number of members who seem to delight in contention and belittling others. The rest seem very helpful and even the nicest among the helpful folks often get drawn into the bickering of the resident trolls, usually on the same topics. I do too sometimes, but less often now. |
@mr_m - I think every chat board has a "culture" and from what I've witnessed over many years on other boards in diverse fields is that someone who comes on blazing is not going to get a positive reception. A little humility goes a long way. This board is far from the worst in my experience- most people seem pretty willing to help. I only started posting here in around 2006, when I had a question about transitioning from electrostats to horns and got a lot of good feedback. Moderation- generally- is almost a last resort. Participants should self-moderate to a degree. When a mod has to step in, things are usually ugly- personal attacks, politics or the like. But, I do agree that once the rules are set, a violation should have consequences, starting with a 'time out.' I acted as a consigliere for an exotic car board for a number of years- lots of big egos and no small amount of sniping. It was a thankless task for the mods, who were largely volunteers. Tammy does a pretty good job in my estimation. |
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I think Audigon needs more moderator attention as well but I think there has to be an expectation by the owners of the site that it will be civil and cordial. I also think the moderators would need to pay close attention to context. This takes a lot of work on their part but I have had several posts deleted when the content was obviously intended to be humorous and on one occasion it was a Monty Python quote. The moderator involvement would need to be more interactive as well. In other words, not just deleting posts without explanation. They would need to guide discussion when necessary, delete posts when necessary, suspend or remove offenders when necessary. |
As I'm sure you've noticed Celander, and why you posted this, there is an abundance of lack of regard for others on Audiogon. I have no idea why on a high end audio forum low end, intentionally rude and hurtful interactions are tolerated. My solution would be for the moderators to suspend offenders and then expel repeat offenders. That would in my opinion make Audiogon a more pleasant place to visit, and attract more participants. To my mind this is the best site for discussion of high end audio with others who enjoy the same. There's no reason to be put off by hurtful or derogatory comments directed at others. Intolerable behavior simply shouldn't be tolerated. Those are my thoughts on this subject anyway. Mike |
@n80--True. I guess my point was that when you engage with people in person, particularly one on one, or in small enough groups that you can have a conversation, people are more alike than different in some ways. You find commonality. And, to come full circle, that may be where communication on the Internet falls short. Sure, we join here in a common pursuit, but it is different than talking in person. Though, truth be told, when I was involved in an audio club back in the day, not much serious business got done. We did have a good time, though. |
@whart I agree. No single term, moniker or stereotype is sufficient to characterize an individual much less a generation. But that does not mean that there aren't trends and characteristics among generations that shape the cultures they live in. I would also say that your sample group, post graduate students, is a small sample and pretty much selected for successful and hard working types. The truth is that 'micro-aggressions" and "trigger words" are first world luxuries........if not neuroses. Neurosis is always a substitute for legitimate suffering. Carl Jung |
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I think millennials get a bad rap. Sure, some of the stuff that is in the news, is politicized, etc. makes it seem like @geoffkait is right. I'm retired from a profession in NYC which was not exactly a polite business- high stakes litigation. I now teach part-time at a very good law school here in Austin, Texas. Granted, Texas has its own charms, but many of the students come from all over the US and beyond. Most of them are not only hard workers, but pretty skeptical of the everything, including the popular image of their generation. Obviously, I try to avoid stepping into potholes on some of the more controversial issues, but at least at post-grad level, most of these younger folks are pretty astute, and just want to excel. We can address an issue like a "morals clause" in a contract or the impact of confidentiality in an era that is increasingly demanding transparency and deal with the issues without getting caught up in the gears. For me, coming from an older generation, I've actually learned quite a bit from these young lawyers in training-- I like their energy, they aren't jaded, and often have the ability to look at a problem without the conventional blinders that lead to closed loop thinking. They also grew up with the Internet in a way some of us didn't. And though they deal with it, perhaps more than we do (and are often better at computers!), they seem to have the same skepticism about where it leads. I'm trying to avoid any political overtones here. I do think that it is very healthy to tune out some of the noise, get off the 'feed' and work with people in person. |
I see the notions of "trigger" words and "micro-aggressions" as indicators that our culture is getting close to its nadir. I'm sure it is further away than I think and likely to be a lot worse than I can imagine. Kind of hope I'm not here to witness it. This is not just a curmudgeonly rant. I think it has everything to do with the idolatry of the self and the cult of solipsism. If the self is the ultimate entity then it follows that it should brook no insult and that any slight against it is blasphemy. It is human nature to feel that each of us is the center of the universe. It used to be that dispelling this myth was the corner stone of raising a child. Today academia has latched onto this in a big way and formalizes the idea of self importance. When we teach our children that this is true then we do indeed turn them into 'snowflakes'. When something as tiny as a "micro" aggression is elevated to the level of real or actual aggression and something as simple as a single "trigger" word is seen as an assault the attempt to elevate the self has turned into making the self as fragile and delicate as a snowflake. Ironically, the attempt to elevate the self has weakened it to the point of uselessness and ultimate weakness. The result is that such delicate egos have to make the world safe for themselves by suppressing the free flow of speech and ideas. Also an irony since those are inevitably the tools of tyranny which a population of snowflakes will be ill equipped to resist. |
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@djohnson54 well, that was not my intention. Just going with what the discourse here was leading and dovetailing a discussion on the very same language I had with my son that morning driving to practice when he used it (yet again) after I asked him to not accept that language from his 3rd grader pals as his own. But it I appreciate your perspective all the same. |
Snowflakes – how will they ever make it in our world. No matter how you’ve been educated / reared – the world is a tough place to survive and succeed. No matter what you’ve been told… everyone doesn’t win a trophy just because they participate. The world has winners and losers. The winners buck up, persevere, press on – no matter what the opposition presents. Losers fold and complain about the bullies who harass them. Our nation needs to reinstate the selective service draft, or simply require everyone to enter the military upon high school graduation. After basic training and a few years in the Army or Marines – the Snowflakes would understand and be better prepared to survive and excel in our world – actually become winners… and… respect those that are and who persevered, even sacrificed to provide them the opportunity to become a winner. |
Logic and Tropes and Schemes are no longer taught in college these days, and Debate as a "sport" is not held in high esteem any more, so arguments in any online forum (or in the general news environment today) are rife with poorly-argued posts and positions. ARGUMENT is not historically a derogatory or negative term, but it has become so in our current culture. Represent your POV logically and then move on. Maybe listen to a few online college debates to learn how to express your thoughts or facts and see if some of that civility rubs off, as well as the logical and correctly-argued points. All this would be much more interesting with the correct approach, and people's feelings would be spared the uneducated diatrabs that sometimes occur. Intelligence tempered by education is NOT a handicap regardless of what some people think today. I would guess that those who revel in their lack of education still visit witch doctors when they are ill? Probably not, huh? Cheers! |
Celander, Your comment above just illustrates my point about how something in writing can be misconstrued. You say that your didn't criticize anyone for using the term "triggered" (and I believe you) but when you said 'And just this morning, I lectured my 9 y/o not to use terms like “triggered,”' you implied that your were lecturing the poster. |
When I was in the USAF during residency we had a primitive 'email' system but anything you wrote could be seen by everyone in the hospital. All of us residents were very close and all got along quite well but we liked to give each other a hard time in good humor. I can remember being approached by a number of hospital staff and nurses about how all of us residents seemed to hate each other and were so mean spirited. We all knew the ribbing was in jest. Its what tied us together during those stressful years (working 90-100 hours per week, sometimes 36 hours without sleep). But it didn't translate that way to others. Point being, it can be hard to decipher internet communication. Sometimes we take offense when none is intended. |
More and more, posts are initiated for the purpose of generating controversy or pushing people’s buttons. Other posts are just plain ridiculous. In other cases, a post with an obvious error is initiated by an inexperienced member, and these tend to get shot down (appropriately, I think) at the outset. |
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I didn’t criticize anyone for using “triggered.” I know what folks mean when they use that term. I simply related a discussion about using formal English I had with my son on the way to hockey practice. It’s easy enough to figure out how long one has been on line, at least here. So I responded in kind to the sarcasm. Tit for tat. No harm, no foul. |
sorry. I was in a hurry. had to go shopping and my ride was here. . and ’subdle’ is such a hard word to spell anyhow. The Military showed me some ways to cope with most anything. Learn, adapt, then overcome. and…. Don’t sweat the small stuff. it escapes me from time to time, that I am able to just ignore things rather than get upset with, or by them. an old saying goes: The odds around here are pretty good that the goods are pretty odd. the key is to let other people be other people, regardless. don’t care for their thoughts? move on. or just forget about them. AS I said, and other’s here have pointed to, sometimes posts are taken far to litteraly, out of context, or a post was done in haste and not fully developed so their meaning was clear enough. I’m very guilty of this lack of congruity now and then. I know what I mean… so then everyone else should too. true too, as with reviews, take everything written here with a large grain of salt. those in the ‘know’ will be quite evident they are trying to be helpful sooner than later. that’s all. ignore and press on. it separates the ‘wheat from the chaff’, so to speak. the ‘wild and wooly dark web mandates those who interact therein, grow thicker skins. it does not however remove accountability for untoward or cruel behaviors. subdle or otherwise. lol |
@celander ...just how long have you been online? @mental How long have I been here? That you need to ask means that you can’t figure that out on your own? Seriously?Wow! This just typifies the problem with written communications such as emails and blog posts - devoid of all the subtle and not so subtle verbal clues that a real conversation has. When I read Mental's "how long" post, I took it as a jest because of the added "*chuckles." I also believe that Millercarbon was trying to be funny with his "triggered" comment. BTW, I don't like the term "triggered" either but for completely different reasons. I do, however, understand the humor in his comment. When I post or write and email, I always try to proofread (a lost art I'm afraid) what I wrote from the standpoint of the person reading it to see if it might be misconstrued (and to see if I've made any embarrassing typos). That said, I think it's constructive to not always assume that a seemingly hurtful post was meant that way BECAUSE of how easy it is to misinterpret a comment. On the other hand, I DO see an awful lot of comments that are intentionally hurtful and it makes me sad (and I second what Gdnrbob said about the state of this country). |