Focal Kanta No.2

In room bass response is quite dependent on well, the room! When any speaker has less overall space from its boundaries, the overall energy dissipated moving through the air is reduced. It returns to you from the boundary at a greater level than what would have in a larger room, not to mention the volume of air.

With that, bass preferences will certainly be room dependent as larger more extended speaker could easily overload a smaller room.

In any respect, I do prefer what Focal chose to do with their bass drivers. They do have useful output int he lower mids and I always prefer if we keep them working cleanly in their range.

@stereo5 
No dung being flung, many speakers aren't agreeable to wide number of listeners, otherwise no choices would exist perfect sound would be replicated by the worlds only loud speaker manufacture.

Also, let it be known that non should have an opinion that differs than your own and acute hearing leaves us only dreaming of sound that only your gifted self can experience. This last sentence being a true representation of horse dung.

A good number of people who feel that way about GE products and others that only exude praise for them. But what I can say is the the Triton One had pretty notable treble flair starting at the upper mid to lower treble transition. The also have a an elevated upper treble to compensate for dispersion loss at 10khz and above. It also displays some vertical dispersion changes. Not to mention the mid driver has been measured to have an appreciable amount of distortion in nearly all of its operating range. Not a benchmark performance, even at some of its given prices.

So their difficult to setup well, do not have as clean a reproduction of critical ranges, and have driver linearity issues at the tweeter. Now they have recently improved the distortion figures in the plus series and further improved the dispersion characteristics in their reference series. In listening, imaging is wide but depth is somewhat shortened compared to others. 

I've heard the Vandy Quartro Wood and not my cup of tea, but certainly not bad at all. Neither is the GE line for what I would say overzealous upper end response, but it has improved over recent versions which I admittedly haven't heard.

In any case, your response is silly, pointless, and expressed with glaring lack of tact in expression and so noted for future futile responses.

There have been a few mentions here of a new and bigger Kanta No.3 coming soon, yet I’ve seen no info to that extent even from Focal when I inquired. Since I would likely be all in if this were the case, I’m wondering if the anticipation for such is from a verifiable source rather than just a `wish for’ possibility?

@mmeysarosh 
My room is on the smaller size of average I'd say. It's about the smallest space Focal recommends for 936's. I made that choice quite deliberately because you're virtually always going to end up with better bass reproduction from 2 sources instead of 4. If I hadn't considered that a significant problem I'd have bought 1008 Be's and augmented them with subs. I'm well aware of the EM drivers. That technology is far to expensive to apply to $10,000 speakers. That's why they use NIC motors to increase the linearity of the motor over long excursions.

I'm not trying to pick on you specifically. You made a statement that gets tossed around here a lot based on what appears to be a misunderstanding of what a low point measurement is. 

@stereo5 
I do think the big GE's are more voiced for HT use. Movie soundtracks aren't as disrupted by insanely overblown bass like the big GE's are prone to from one music track to another. Their voicing strikes me as hyper-real while being polite and clinical with weaker image depth. They lacked something Focal brings to the table. 

@ contuzzi

Well, I live in east Texas and I've looked around a bit in Dallas and didn't find any Kanta, or even any Focal, for that matter.  Perhaps I need to look some more.

But I do have AXPONA tickets and a room reservation in hand!

Techno babble is fun in the terms that it give ideas onto where things go next. Speaker performance in my view has some ways to go yet still. The engineering exercise in my view is rather interesting.

I addressed your point numerous times, part is due to my room configuration and part in musical preferences. I stated as such early on and at this point, your arguing for the sake of and nothing else. For myself, it matters and obviously it appears less so to your or want it to be for some particular reason. 

Golden Ear is agreeably focused on home theater experience and not musical listening. I never even considered them and the products I mention are proper competitors. Take a moment and seek out the Contour 60's. The bass is tight, taught, and isn't over exaggerated in the least bit. Also, the Focal EM drivers aren't active, but he permanent magnet is replaced by an electromagnet and can produce a field with nearly three times the magnetic flux. The issue being the added power requirements, but as I said that with new materials could obviate some of those issues. 

I'm assuming your room isn't large so this might play a role in your preference. It might also be your musical tastes don't present much lower bass demand. Making any assumptions for others is being myopic.

Techno babble is great fun but like I said originally, after hearing a performance live of the PSO at The Kimmel Center and then listening to the same symphony at home on the Kanta 2’s, it was uncannily similar!  Rarely has that been my experience.

@mtrot Where do you live?  If you live anywhere near the new Axpona location, there are three dealers right around there that have Kantas.   

@mmeysarosh 
The only difference between the woofers in my 936's and those in the Kanta No.2 is the motor. They're specifically designed to be more linear at longer excursions. 

But again to my point: there's very little going on in the vast majority of music that needs extension much below 40Hz. A speaker with a low point in the 30's doesn't require a sub in a typical room unless you're absolutely obsessed with overblown bass. The one issue I'm always hearing and reading about with speakers that have active bass systems is that they sound unnatural and require constant adjustment. Given a choice between Kanta No.2's and Golden Ear References, I'm taking the Focal's all day long just because they'll always sound more natural. 

The NRC is a Canadian measurements lab for speakers with NRC standing National Research Council. It was developed by Dr. Floyd Toole, who even JA would refer to as one of the people who defined loudspeaker measurements for modern speakers and currently is employed with Harman Corporation. Harman has a more advanced development of what he started at the NRC. John Atkinson has referenced Dr. Floyd Toole in his own documents on loudspeaker measurements.

Also, look at the NRC charts that Soundstage has published. In the more than fifty speakers measured with 6.5" drivers, not a single unit was able to produce 30hz cleanly without appreciable rise in distortion. It may be negligible at low levels, but it quickly rises above 80db. Could it be done? Yes, I believe it can be made with some extremely expensive materials. I run an FEA lab used for a certain disciplines of engineering and I can tell you about materials that cost is beyond the budget of most loudspeaker implementations. The other factors would pertain to the motor structure in the former, magnet structure, the coil would have to be very high power handling to have extremely long excursion. The surrounds require some impressive roll as well not to mention the spider.

In fact, Focal themselves have pioneered technology into production that does address a number of issues in their EM series drivers, which replaces the permanent magnet with an EM instead. This would allow the motor to reach the excursion required without extreme power loading. If stanene (very new material that holds huge promise) wire would be used, it could really create an incredible powerful motor/field structure. The cone would still require additional rigidity or more of them to spread the load and the suspension would still be a possible issue, but maybe if you implemented suspension via EM with the ability for the former to have a rest position when off, it might work out. Build the former and cone into single solid piece while reinforcing cone. But this wouldn't be in the budget of the Sopra line unless the driver in question went into volume production. I mean tens of millions per year of the very same driver.

I know, its a great deal of techno babble when all you need to is to use larger cones drivers to get there for much less cost. Old engine line, no replacement for displacement. Well, that isn't true any longer and it could possibly be true in speakers at some point. Just not today.

All I can say is that the Kanta No2 has one of the most natural and realistic bass presentations I’ve heard.  Strings also sound very much like the real thing.  Overall they deliver a very authentic reproduction of the source.  Not overly zingy or exaggerated in any frequency range...great scale and soundstaging with oodles of ambient detail.  I’m very pleased and I would say that pricing is commensurate with the competition.  I can also verify that deals can be had on most speakers if you shop around!

Who’s NRC??? The ONLY accurate way to measure a speaker’s bass response is in free air. Even the best anechoic chambers create boundary reinforcement. That’s why JA at Stereophile does his measurements in a field. And his measurements of virtually every speaker he’s tested agree with Focal’s specs generally within the margin of experimental margin of errors.
What's more, getting clean 30Hz response from a 6.5" driver is hardly impossible. I have no doubt the Kanta No.2 can do it.

You can also look at the NRC measurements for the Sopra 2 and see that Focal's figures don't correlate at all with Focal specified frequency response for the Sopra 2. That test is in the NRC chamber and you can see crossed response the steps into the port response and requires room reinforcement. Stereophile had indicated the larger Sopra 3 had its port tuned to around 32hz. Based on the NRC chart, the Sopra 2 is around 36hz and I would likely guess the Kanta could be around 38hz port tuning due to its slightly lesser specification as compared to the Sopra 2. The takeaway is simple, The Sopra 2 or Kanta 2 aren't full range designs and neither are they meant to be. The Sopra 2 does have decently low distortion at pretty honest 90db. The tweeter does lose linearity at 95db. I would expect distortion would be increasing anything above that level. Look at the distortion the NRC recorded for the Sopra 2 at 95db, it doesn't rise to appreciably from the bass drivers. I consider this to be a good design choice as you really don't want it to muddy the mid bass and lower mids. Now look at the Kef Reference 3 at the NRC. They decided to permit their small drivers to push just a bit lower than Focal had. When pushed at 95db, the distortion levels rise notably above what the Sopra 2. I prefer the Focal design route here in not pushing a smaller driver further than need be. The Sopra 2 distortion ends well below 200hz, the Kef Ref 3 end just shy of 400hz.  Kef had done a better job in keeping the mid and tweeter driver in terms of linearity and distortion, but the Sopra does have a wider dispersion in most the the usable audio band. 

Now lets be honest hear, Focal's spec sheet is lacking just like every manufacture throughout the speaker world. Also, not a single speaker designer on the planet will attest to 6.5" drivers being able to appreciably reach full range response without significant distortion of driver itself, or any driver in production at least. To engineer drivers that possibly could might take half the cost of the speaker given the use of four in a stereo pair. The spec sheet is a rough guide, but none are a gold standard as every maker knows that they need to market any product in the best light possible, even some notably fudging with the numbers to get there.

If you want to see some impressive NRC figures, the Magico S5 is superbly impressive in the bass area. The tweeter distortion is also great, just not linearity. He has seem to made some strides since then.

I will give the Sopra 2 a nod for being one of the better speakers at its price point. Even the Sopra 3 is pretty damn good at its point and I would say the Canton 3K the nod for best competitor to the Sopra 2. The Kanta 2 is well priced in Europe, just not here. The Contour 60 is quite the opposite being nine thousand euro and ten grand here. I consider the Kanta slightly expensive in the US, but it does have the best aesthetics of any of the close competitors.  The Kanta 3 might very well be the overall ticket since I'm not very appreciable to the stature of the Contour 60. The Magico A3 seems interesting, but a certainly a very plain looking box. The listening later on shall tell all.

@mmeysarosh 
No. The Focal published specs are anechoic measurements and generally reflect the anechoic measurements taken by JA at Stereophile. Nobody takes measurements, especially in the bass region, in a room. The measurement results would be as much a product of the room performance as the speaker performance. 

This is the core of the point I'm trying to make. People look at frequency responses which are universally taken in an anechoic environment or something simulating a speaker responding in a free air half sphere, and the assume those are the figures they're going to get in a typical room. They absolutely aren't. Something with a -6dB low point at 29Hz will likely be completely flat to at least that point in a real room with sensible placement. 

The sharp roll off is a product of the port tuning point which is probably 35Hz, give or take. The port quickly unloads the driver much below that point and does the exact opposite of stemming distortion. Once the woofers are unloaded by the ports mechanical damping takes over. This is why Focal aggressively damps their drivers. 

Does anybody know if Kanta No. 2 is going to be demoed at AXPONA?  I have reservations and tickets in hand!  I really need to hear these before proceeding with any speaker purchase.  Nobody within hundreds of miles from me seems to have these, sadly.

The measurements are from German magazine Stereoplay and I would expect a -6db @ 29hz and that specification from Focal is likely specified for the average room. They also tested the Sopra 3 and came up with -6db @ 29hz for the larger twin 8.25", which would give you a pretty full range performance.

The Sopra's and Kanta alike have a quick roll off in bass, in due to keeping driver distortion at a minimum.  There are likely no 6.5" driver that could go realistically below 30hz at an appreciable level without getting into excessive distortion. They did the appropriate thing by keeping the design low distortion, which would be an expectation for most at this price. Now as for its bass performance to its size, hard to really tell since the size isn't easy to determine with the dimensions being taken a bit from the footer. But the speaker doesn't appear overbearing in size by any means. 

Kanta no3 will be out soon enough. Two 8.25” woofers and bigger cabinet. Should easily satisfy your “full range” needs for about $3,000 more...

As someone who has actually heard and spent a lot of time with the no2’s (what a concept!), I find the bass to be intensely impressive based on cabinet size.  Can’t wait to hear the no3.

Mmeysarosh, I have to report that the bass response in my room using my Krell Vanguard is phenomenal.  The Transparent Ultra Gen 5 cables don’t hurt, but the double basses on orchestral works are completely realistic and so natural.  Midrange is one of the most complete and full I have owned.  Highs are crystalline but grain free...violin is natural and pure without glare or excess sheen.  Easily dropping well below 30hz in room.  The only bass information below the Kanta’s cutoff is electronic bass and pipe organs lowest notes.  

@mmeysarosh 
 Not sure where you get the -6dB @ 34Hz from, but Focal's published figures tend to be spot on and they claim 29Hz. 

Regardless, the Kanta No.2 is the logical upgrade path from the Aria 936 based on intended room size, listening distance, and response characteristics, and I'd expect it to sound similar with refinement. These are both full range speakers by any definition of the term. I routinely jam Bassnectar through my 936's and feel no need to augment them with subs. I'm suspecting the No.3 will feature 2 8" F cone drivers like the 948 sports in a substantially larger box, and I'm leaning twin 8's because it has to be front ported due to the plinth design. I don't expect it will dig much below 30Hz. 

The bass begins to roll off sharply around 40hz and is down -3db at 38hz and -6db at 34hz. In an appropriately sized room (which mine actually isn't for the Kanta 2), it could very well have enough gain to get down to 29hz, but it wouldn't be able to achieve the sense of pressure created by full range designs and remain clean with low distortion through the drivers audible band.  There are  a few musical genres where that does have a notable impact on the feel, so a lot if this does depend on room and musical tastes.

In comparison to the similarly priced Dynaudio Contour 60 (At least the US Price), the Danes chose a larger pair of drivers with greater cabinet volume to achieve the ability to produce those tones cleanly and keep the driver more composed through the remainder of its response. Focal had expressed in interviews that the baffle construction was in part to maintain cabinet volume all the while keeping the overall size in a specified range. Aesthetic value was a choice Focal made in this product and obviously the Danes weren't quite as concerned about the imposing size of their product.  The issue I have with Contour 60 is how high that mid-tweeter arrangement stand in relative to a typical listener height. Maybe its due to them being one of the tallest nations on Earth. 

I'm personally already used to having something that does dig a bit deeper down low. Would have to hear the Kanta to determine if it works for me, but from my experience, I've preferred a fuller range design.

@mmeysarosh 
I'm going to pick on you because you said something that echos a sentiment I see tossed around here a lot about any speaker that doesn't dig down to 20Hz -3dB. 
The Kanta is going to perform very flatly down to it's 29Hz low point considering typical boundary reinforcement of the bass in a real room. Do people forget that these figures are free space "anechoic" performance measurements and that isn't the result you're going to get in an actual room?  
I'd expect bass response to be very comparable to my 936's being the difference in low point is 3Hz. I wouldn't even briefly consider a sub with mine. Any additional bass reinforcement above 32Hz would be insanely unrealistic. 

Measurements are a tool and just like any other, you are free to use them as you like. With them, you can certainly gain inference on how you might set up a pair in your room.

The exmaple of the B&W 802D2 isn't know to have linear dispersion across the audio band due to B&W's design which pushes the mid-tweeter crossover point well out of the mid range. With judicious setup and in room response measurements, I've seen them put in one very nicely done in room frequency response that belies its measured response.

One example is having the phase and impedance plot of a loudspeaker system can give you insights to what amps might be unsuitable or in the least not an ideal pairing.

As for this new Kanta 2, bass response has a quick fall which is certainly in place to keep distortion low. Deep bass will be missing and full range performance will need the assistance of a sub. Impedance does dip rather low at 100hz at 2.9Ohm and I would pair this speaker with amp that is known to be stable at that impedance range. Treble response is slightly shelved. Other that the toe in work, it shouldn't be to hard for room placement and I would think a good solid state amp that can provide current would work best. There are certainly enough options out there to fine tune the final result.

 I do think they will be overall as good as the Electra, but they are a bit different overall.

Some of my favorite speakers have had all sorts of measurement issues...My Wilson WP 6’s and 7’s, B&W 802D2’s, Totem Forest’s etc..yet they can sound amazing and all have quite a following.  Some measure while others listen.  A particular piece of the audio chain is just that...a piece.  How you put the pieces together is the art.  It’s all about balance and synergy!  Anyone who would buy a system based on measurements alone is chasing a fools dream.  

All they really have to do is be as good or marginally better than the 1000 series Electra line which I suspect will be phased out soon. 

Focal unfortunately decided to price the Kanta 2 quite a bit higher for the US market in comparison to the European market. It sells around $8,500 in Europe sans VAT, which I would expect a $9,000 USD price, but not more. It does have a certain style and I believe Focal is banking on this being a compelling high end lifestyle speaker. 

It appears to have that odd suck out right where the mid crosses to the tweeter, but oddly flares back up at the 30 degree off center mark. Possibly something lost out in not using the more curved baffle shape from the upmarket Sopra. Speaker toe in is going to have a very notable affect on the balance.

It enters the market at well contested segment. B&W offers the 804D3, Dynaudio has the Contour 60, Paradigm has the Persona 3F, PSB offers the Imagine T3, Canton has the Reference 5K, Magico and Revel will be putting in new entries very shortly. Each speaker mentioned brings its own set of traits the table and are all easily competitive with one another.

I'm sure they'll be fine speakers, but value will likely be considered fair or simply just good, but nothing great. I do intend to pick up a new pair of speakers in the next year right around this price point. Should be good fun. 

:(

Dave’s not here. 

Wait...what?  There’s another Dave?  So...ah, that’s ok, I still wanna apologize for being a bit touchy Shadorne.  Best of luck

I’m sorry as well Shadorne...us Audio Bro’s need to stick together!!  Good luck on your Quest for Audio Nirvana, Lord knows I need some as well :)

Dave,

You misread my post which was simply and explicitly pointing out all the glaring inadequacies of my setup. I did not mean to attack you personally. Sorry you took offence - none was intended.

What a temper tantrum. Touched a nerve, aye shadorne?

Dave

Dave,

Unfortunately not even close.

Since I have only ordinary bits of wire everywhere between components it is close to the worst on Audiogon. An ordinary USB cable too. Ordinary balanced XLR cables to the amp. The speaker wires are also just ordinary copper wires. Entirely ho hum and not even at your local Best Buy Monster cable level (around $100) which means absolutely terrible by Audiogon standards. No special fuses. No treatments. My system suffers every one of the horrible scary sound destroying ills that a multitude of specialist cables and tweaks could easily correct (with the appropriate hundreds of hours of break in, of course).

dave_b,

It’s the best system on Audiogon and probably in the world. Please read the thousands of his posts saying so. :)

Dave

I took a look at Shadorne’s system....hmmm, ok then.  Dig those SPL’s...yeah!!  Have fun crankin’ Free Bird

@shadorne 
I'd kinda hope you're getting a bit more sound quality when you spend 20 times the price of the Kantas No.2 on a pair of speakers. No doubt Focal's lower priced speaker represent excellent value! That's why I bought 936's instead of 1008 Be's. I wouldn't expect Kanta No.2's to compare well with Utopia products. I'd expect something like a 948's sound with more refined highs and better balanced dispersion. And I'd expect to pay twice what my 936's cost to get that. 

@kosst_amojan

Well actually my interest in the measurements came because I have heard them recently. Not much to say except rather mediocre considering the price and they certainly can’t hold a candle to their top of the line products. I think the budget line of Focal like the 936 is much better value. The aesthetics may be the only significant improvement over their budget line.

I heard them at my local dealer on a Naim stack. Also listened to them with the Aavik U300. Very engaging and I think the price point is a bargain. The BE tweeter is smooth (unlike some past models). That's my opinion.

http://www.tonepublications.com/audiophile-apartment/focals-new-kanta-no-2-speakers/

Just a bit more:)

http://robbreport.com/gear/audio/focal-kanta-no-2-loudspeakers-flagship-features-compact-package-275...More stuff!!

http://www.tonepublications.com/review/focals-kanta-no-2-speakers/

More good news!!

Review looks good!  I’ve learned to use my ears...whenever I trusted a review in my decision making it turned out to have some fundamental flaw I disliked.  I’ve seen how these lower evolutionary cretins do their evaluations and measurements and it is quite eye opening!  

And yet you can't find anybody saying a bad word about them! 

I'm going to put a little more credit in people who've actually heard them. 

Test results at Stereoplay are rather mediocre for such a costly speaker. Mid range suck out means they probably sound laid back rather than accurate. I can’t understand why there is so much distortion between 1 and 2 KHz? I don’t think Focal will end up being proud of this cheaper version of their larger legendary speakers. Looks like they are selling a mediocre product off the back of their legendary name.

https://oslohificenter.no/hoyttalere/gulvstaende/focal-kanta-no-2?iid=444276&pid=OHC-OHCProduct-...

I went to The Kimmel Center yesterday to hear The Philadelphia Symphony perform Shostakovich Symphony No.7...I had box seats right off the stage!  Amazing performance that nearly had me in tears.  This morning I played my SACD version of the No.7 on my system and I could hardly believe my ears....the Focal Kanta No.2’s delivered a stunningly lifelike recreation of my experience at the Kimmel!!  From the lower octave fundamentals to the sweet open pristine highs...all of it was there and in correct proportion.  Dynamics were completely realistic, plucked strings were spot on and the open panoramic vista of the orchestra was laid out in all it’s grandeur.  The delicacy and the power of the full orchestra was delivered in full measure, with expression, warmth and most of all...emotion.  The Kanta No.2’s are very special indeed and may just be one of the most musically “right” speaker system produced today.  Truly remarkable!!  Bravo Focal

@contuzzi - apologies, just saw your post today.  I finally didn't buy the Olympica iiis as was unsure of the laid-back sound and didn't want to rush in to the purchase.  They're no longer available to me as the seller has moved to another country.  I've also decided to wait before deciding on the Kantas since they're so new, would like to hear more feedback about them.  Am very curious to see how the new Magico A3s will be especially considering they're the same price as the Kantas!

Also, with regard to your remark about the Devialet vs. the ARC/Pass Labs combo, is that a likely result irrespective of the type of speaker?  I am very new to the world of high-end audio and don't have much experience listening to many tube systems.  I listen to primarily rock (Pink Floyd, Dire Straits, Eric Clapton, Sting etc.), vocals (both male/female), but a bit of jazz and blues with very limited classical music.  From what I've read I believe the general recommendation for this kind of music would be SS amps but I've also read very good things about tube amps like the Primaluna Dialogue.  I'm also curious to understand how a combination of the a tube-preamp and an SS amp would suit my tastes in music?

Thanks!

Forest Sig’s are just another pair of great speakers I wanted to have for a secondary system.  They are special but I can’t keep everything.  Always keeping an ear out for another audio adventure!  It’s all great stuff in service of my love for music...it’s also my hobby.

@dave_b What made you move from the speakers you mentioned to Totem Forest Signature?