Hi Deaf, well like you said...it seems a lot has happened for you in the last few weeks..:0) Congrats on the Acapella's...are the Campaniles the speakers with the four 10" drivers per side? I haven't heard these, but i would think that you would need a VERY large room for them, wherein, I would expect a great sound. Horns aren't really my thing, but they are able to give one that 'BIG' sound and if that is what you like, then they are hard to beat.
BTW,I hope the GH's went to a good home. Do follow up with your impressions of your new speakers once you have had a chance to listen in your new abode.
Meanwhile, I'm glad I was able to help you with your system. |
Thanks, Lloydelee21! Actually, I am not as dedicated as all that. I've been planning to move for several years, and have a pretty clear idea in my head of what sort of house I want, but the 2.4-meter high Acapellas just add one more requirement of a large room with high ceilings. This is difficult but not impossible to find in the semi-countryside here. This will also give me a chance to move the speakers in before the rest of our stuff, hopefully making them less shocking and more acceptable to wifey, who is historically not happy with my hobby, and whom I haven't yet gone out of my way to inform of the addition of the cute little Acapellas among our audio gear.
I looked-up Audio Exotics, and it should be a lot of fun. A lot of that sort of stuff is over the top for me, for example I personally really can't hear a difference by raising $500,000 speaker wire of the floor intermittently with $1000 little wood blocks, but some people seem to think they can and are willing to spend huge sums on such things. I saw loads of such things at the Tokyo International Audio show last fall, but also many things that really improved my understanding of this hobby, and some very tempting equipment as well. I am sure you will find the same, and have fun doing it. You should have some outstanding excellent meals in HK while you're there, too.
As for DACs, I bought the one that sounded best to me from among what was available locally for listening, but I found the sonic differences among the better DACs to be subtle, and my feeling is that computer audio is very young and like other areas of computer technology we will see huge improvements very fast at ever-lowering prices, so there is no hurry to run out and get one, because like computers and other peripherals, if you wait a few months there will probably be something twice as good for half the price.
I want to thank everyone on this thread again for your advice, which really rounded-out my fundamental understanding of several basic aspects of audio, while providing a means by which I could clarify my own tastes and desires, and launched me on my way to whatever my next level will be. |
Hi DILE - congrats!!! and no one should be miffed or upset by your decision...after all, its YOUR decision!
From what i have read, you have bought some fantastic equipment. Congratulations. Northstar and Acapella in particular are both great from what i understand. i may even hear horns myself being in Hong Kong at the end of the month...Audio Exotics, the place of legendary fame!
Enjoy your music and good luck finding a new place to live. Moving house to get the right room for your speakers - now that's dedication to your music! |
Update - A lot happened the past few weeks. For those interested, to start with, on topic of this thread I got a Luxman 509u integrated, which I adore. This amp is clean, clear, powerful, flat, with punch while bringing out the subtlest tonalities and details of instruments across the spectrum.
Taking mainly Daveyf's advice to work on my source and front-end stuff, I started at my computer by adding Amarra software, which I find noticeably better for playback of higher-resolution files, and I upgraded my DAC to a North Star Designs USB Dac32, which I preferred on listening comparisons over the Bryston BDA-1 and new Luxman DA-200. I also replaced all my interconnects with used Cobalt stuff, and speaker wire with German 12 AWG silver wires. In addition, I put-up sound-absorbing curtains over my thin Japanese sliding plexiglass door-walls, and some foam-rubber absorbers on the reflecting wall facing me. All of these tweaks have made significant improvements, and my system sounds great now.
HOWEVERÂ…and this part might make me lose you all as friends, I finally gave-up on the Guarneris. I came to admit to myself that I am just not a small-speaker kind of guy, and much prefer a large sound that reproduces all genres of music well rather than only certain kinds of instruments. I was hit once and for all with this when I happened on a pair of minty condition Acapella Campaniles on special New Year's clearance sale, and traded-in my G's, old Luxman amp, subwoofer, plus some cash for them, in an amazingly lucky bargain.
These are definitely my sound. No more searching. The problem now is there is no room in my old Japanese house with ceilings high enough or enough room for them, so they are in storage while I look for a new house for them. I've been wanting badly to move, and this gives me greater impetus. I know I face a great deal more tweaking when I finally do find a place where I can install them, but I've learned a lot from this forum and look forward to that challenge.
In the meantime, I'm back again to my old Yamaha NS-1000X's, but now with better sources, interconnects, amp, placement, and room treatment, and the sound is all very livable until I finally find a new home for me and my Acapellas. |
Update - A lot happened the past few weeks. For those interested, to start with, on topic of this thread I got a Luxman 509u integrated, which I adore. This amp is clean, clear, powerful, flat, with punch while bringing out the subtlest tonalities and details of instruments across the spectrum.
Taking mainly Daveyf's advice to work on my source and front-end stuff, I started at my computer by adding Amarra software, which I find noticeably better for playback of higher-resolution files, and I upgraded my DAC to a North Star Designs USB Dac32, which I preferred on listening comparisons over the Bryston BDA-1 and new Luxman DA-200. I also replaced all my interconnects with used Cobalt stuff, and speaker wire with German 12 AWG silver wires. In addition, I put-up sound-absorbing curtains over my thin Japanese sliding plexiglass door-walls, and some foam-rubber absorbers on the reflecting wall facing me. All of these tweaks have made significant improvements, and my system sounds great now.
HOWEVERÂ…and this part might make me lose you all as friends, I finally gave-up on the Guarneris. I came to admit to myself that I am just not a small-speaker kind of guy, and much prefer a large sound that reproduces all genres of music well rather than only certain kinds of instruments. I was hit once and for all with this when I happened on a pair of minty condition Acapella Campaniles on special New Year's clearance sale, and traded-in my G's, old Luxman amp, subwoofer, plus some cash for them, in an amazingly lucky bargain.
These are definitely my sound. No more searching. The problem now is there is no room in my old Japanese house with ceilings high enough or enough room for them, so they are in storage while I look for a new house for them. I've been wanting badly to move, and this gives me greater impetus. I know I face a great deal more tweaking when I finally do find a place where I can install them, but I've learned a lot from this forum and look forward to that challenge.
In the meantime, I'm back again to my old Yamaha NS-1000X's, but now with better sources, interconnects, amp, placement, and room treatment, and the sound is all very livable until I finally find a new home for me and my Acapellas. |
Hi Keiserrg, I do agree that Jadis makes some great pieces. I was able to hear the Orchestra with the GH's and liked the pairing very much.Not quite enough drive for the speakers, but still a very good sound and very smooth.
A few years ago, I was contemplating getting a Defy 7 Mk1V. Passed on that, and now I use an ARC D70Mk2 with rolled in tubes as my tube amp. The Rowland gives a very different "look" if you will vs. the tube amp. Currently, I am running the Rowland and I feel that the control the ss amp has with the SF's is better than the tube amp. As you know, there are trade-off's in everything in this hobby; the ss amp has slightly more punch and locks in the imaging better than the ARC; the ARC has more ability to portray depth and is better in the top-end air dept. I will try and hear a da88 with the GH's. Although, I must say, I do generally prefer a stand alone preamp and amp setup to the integrated route...Usually due to the fact that most all integrated's that i have heard lack ability in the preamp section. ( Especially compared to my CAT).
BTW, you might want to try some room acoustic treatments in your room, I wasn't a big believer in these either until I put some Real Traps into my system...now I see what all the fuss is about..:0) |
imo, the best integrated amp for the g's is the jadis da88s. that is what i run. you have a great ss amp with the old version of the rowland, but you should test drive the jadis. ps, when sf debuted the guarneris over a decade agao, they chose jadis amplification. best wishes, |
D.I.L.E. I own a CAT SL1 Sig. This is the first preamp that Ken Stevens starting using the current heavy duty chassis with. I have rolled in tubes into my unit which I think has helped enormously. IMHO, this preamp is still VERY competitive with the best I have heard. If you can get a chance to listen, then i would suggest that you take that opportunity. I do ask that you inquire of the Seller as to how old the tubes are in the unit and if they have been changed out, what is currently being used. ( The choice of tubes can greatly change the character of the SL1, like most preamps that is sometimes NOT for the better). Another thing to consider, what amp you will be using with the preamp you will ultimately end up with? While the CAT works well with most amps in my experience, it's always possible that a mis-match could occur. So, if you like the sound of the pairing at your dealer, make note of that and ask the dealer what else he might suggest to give you the sound you like. Remember the GH's are ultra revealing, so a good quality amp is a must.
I think Lloydlee summed up what else to consider when listening to a preamp. One other thing, which sounds a little obvious but perhaps isn't: The preamp is the 'control center' of your system... You may want to make sure that it can control and hook-up to all the other gear that you plan on using..now and possibly in the near future. As an example of this, the CAT does not have a mono switch, so if you want to listen to a lot of mono LP's, this might be an issue. The CAT is also a single ended device that does not have the ability to output a balanced signal...some people want a balanced connection or require a balanced connection for their amp...again, IMHO, the CAT probably isn't for them. If you are planning a major home theater system, the CAT probably isn't going to do the job.
One other thing, I still think you may want to look at your source component first, before delving too much further into the amp/preamp changes. |
Hi Lloydelee - I only have integrated amps right now (Luxman and McIntosh), but I guess I could lug one of those over and just compare the pre-outs, if the shop doesn't have one of the same models. That would be difficult if I take the bullet train to Tokyo or elsewhere, but no problem for testing stuff in the (one) local shop. Thanks for the tip. I should have thought of that! |
The Ref 3 is very good and quite a leap forward from the Ref 2 which i have heard before. That said, yes, ARC preamps are generally well regarded but i do not have personal experience with any others besides Ref 2, 3 and the 5. I have owned the CJ pv14l, and now the Act 2. I like them both, and have found the Guarneris to sound very good thru both. I have heard BAT pre (VK51 or something?) on Sonus Faber Amatis...quite crisp. I have heard Audible Illusions pre was quite good, probably similar vintage to the ARC's you mentioned above?
as for 'what to listen for', i would have suggested it is not too different than what to listen for in any component. What happens to the sound when you put your own component into the system?...what changes and do you like those changes? Some people prefer to 'color' their sound a bit using the pre while others prefer to get the pre to be 'straight wire with gain' (ie totally transparent).
As my system has been upgraded, i have found i am trending towards more 'neutral' components that err on the side of natural/warm. hope that helps and enjoy when you get back into listening mode. |
hi DILE,
just bring your own preamp...one that you know well. it is not perfect, but it helps a lot when you at least (in one system) start to delineate what the 2 preamps do in the system in the store. you may also be able to ask the Owner of the store to set up a system based on equipment they have that you may further be familiar with, or equipment that is similar to equipment you know.
good luck. |
Daveyf- I just found a used CONVERGENT AUDIO SL-1 signature online at the top end of my budget. Is this model a good one in your opinion?
If so, maybe I could arrange a trip to Tokyo to hear it, but then it would only be at the shop with their eqpt. |
Daveyf,Onemug,Egidius,Lloydelee21, I've been reading and greatly appreciating all your posts, but something's come-up and everything's on hold for me right now in terms of listening, etc. I have been researching online every item you've all put forth. I'll keep you all posted, and please keep the recommendations, tips, and debate coming. I'm sure this is all extremely valuable information to whomever else is out there reading this thread.
Egidius - Wow! That's a huge and funky-looking sub. I put my name on a list for a listen at the shop in case one comes up someday.
Lloydelee21 - Yes, I have found some old ARC preamps here. Are they all generally good, or mainly the Reference III? How about an oldie like SP-3A-1?
Onemug, Daveyf - Home trials of anything cost 10% the price of whatever eqpt from the one shop in town (but that means keep it for 30 days), so I have to try things in the shop until I narrow them down to one or two items. Any tips on how best to listen-test a pre-amp? Things to listen for? Testing techniques, etc.?
|
Hi Daveyf,
thanks for the clarification. I agree on your last point as well. I have never bought blind before...even if i have had to go through contortion to listen to something. but it has been worth it in a couple cases where something i was "sure" i was going to buy ended up being something i respected, but ultimately did not love the way i thought i might.
The good news for DILE is that he seems willing to go through some level of contortion and effort...and like in his GH adventure...is likely to be well rewarded for it. |
Lloydelee21, I think what you say about CAT may apply to the amps, which are a little 'hands on'. However, I have not had any issues with my preamp over the many years that I have owned it, except to change tubes. I also think your suggestion of a ARC ref3 is a good one. Although, I would add that buying used, the standard caveats apply to all used gear, not just CAT.
IMHO, IF DILE could listen to the piece he is planning on Buying first that would be FAR more preferable. Even if the listening session has to be at the Dealer/Seller. |
Hi DILE,
For $5K, you should be able to get a s/hand ARC Ref 3...very, very good. Single-ended and balanced.
I cannot comment on BAT v MC as i am not familiar with Mc sound. If you wish to stick with tubes, i do not think many people could strongly disagree...it is a solid decision with the right tube amp. And both brands have good reputations.
Onemug's suggestion is a good one...getting your feedback will be helpful as you audition.
As for CAT, i have heard these are excellent. i (think) CAT is a company where one needs to watch maintenance and care a bit. double-check this...i could be wrong, but i thought there were some posts here about that. nothing major, just that it requires a little more hands-on maintenance from the owner than some other brands?
do you have access to Audio Research? AGain, try a s/hand ARC Ref 3. there are a couple on AGon. good luck! |
here we go: http://audio-database.com/ACUSTIK-LAB/speaker/stella-novus-e.html
when googling for it, you even find a us-dealer charging 12K for it. Highend pricing is variable as fuel ;-) |
May I add something re Sub:
I own a Acustik Lab Stella Novus;
http://audio-database.com/ACUSTIK-LAB/speaker/stella-novus-e.html
Not only is it an extremely versatile item, that thought along lines of bass managment, that velodyne came much later to, but also it got sold in Asia, and particularly Japan in rather huge numbers; it might be a very good alternative to aquire this second hand, it cost new nearly seven grand, until now I cannot decide if its a sign of overachieving or overcharging; but it is good. try and find one, for up to 2K$ it might be by far the best solution out there. it comes with a remote and an extensive manual(!) |
DILE, Since you can't demo a BAT or CJ, I suggest trying the 2200 and seeing what difference it makes over what you have now and then go from there. If you like it but say "I wish it had more/less of ????" then we could possibly help from there. |
D.i,l,e, with that kind of a budget for a used preamp, I think you should have a very good selection. I personally really like the CAT preamps, IMHO, they are superior to the BAT preamps and most any other tube preamp you can name ( including most of the CJ ART preamps as well).
I think one could find a CAT Ultimate used for that price that again, IMHO, would be a step up over all of the BAT preamps ( except maybe the REX, which is out of your budget anyway).
As to a ss preamp, well, I feel that most of these are too dry for my liking, I also agree with you that that applies to most of the Levinson preamps...although I have NOT heard the LNP-2L. |
Daveyf, Onemug, Lloydelee21, anyone else...What are the basic sonic differences (and any other that might be important) between BAT and Mc preamps?
I should be able to try the C2200 soon, but not the BAT. A BAT, CJ ART, Gryphon or most of these mentioned would have to be bought blindly by international mail, which I'm hesitant to do, but unless it is on the bright or harsh side, it will probably be livable for a while I suppose.
I was thinking, since I already have one Mc, albeit just an integrated, which works really well with my other speakers and I intend to keep, it might be nice to have an alternative sound.
I found a Mark Levinson LNP-2L locally, but haven't had a listen yet. It's a bit over what I was planning to spend on a pre, and SS rather than tubes, but some people are telling me its to die for. I don't generally like the Levinson stuff I've heard, feeling it all a bit dry, but people say this one is special an unlike their new stuff.
I'm hoping not to go beyond about US$5K for a used preamp, a budget that both the BAT vk32Kse and McIntosh C2200 I'm looking at fall well within. |
FWIW, i also concur with Daveyf and Onemug about the positives of BAT. you might find it more precise and transparent-sounding imho than Mc while still delivering the beauty of tubes. Both are good options though and system matching (to your ear) are critical here. let us know how it goes! good luck and enjoy, |
The Mac 2200 is a fine tube pre, I owned one for years, and but I have a feeling the BAT might be the best in your case. Sounds like you have a shot at one. Another rec would be something in the CJ line. I'm using one of their ART's now with the GH. Of course, demo if you can. |
D.i.l.e--- I have heard most of the BAT preamps, including the 32SE. I think that the 32SE would be a much better match to the GH's than the C2200. YMMV.
Audition with your amp first if possible. |
How about a Balanced Audio Technol VK32SE tube preamp?
About the same price as the McIntosh C2200, said to be in excellent condition. |
DILE - i think Daveyf's words are wise. the GH's will "stiffen up" if exposed to brittle SS sound, even if the tube pre helps. if u go with SS, just watch for this when you audition. this is why i was fortunate to have a few people recommend Gryphon which i found s/hand. i remembering hearing older Mark Levinson, perhaps some of the cj SS...i compared their older line (before premier 350) directly to tube mv60...and mv60 won but the SS stuff was pretty good. i respected premier 350 a lot but did not A/B...if you can find one s/hand, these all might be worth auditioning.
on tube side, if you end up with cjmv60, that is a great combination...i have heard mv60se feels much more powerful...closer to 100 watts than its rated 60-70. i owned this combination for years. good luck! |
Hi D.I.L.E....glad that you are now considering keeping the GH's with a sub.
I do agree with Jman as well, when he says the GH's like tubes.( which is why I use a CAT preamp and swap in the ARC amp). If you can get your hands on a tube pre-amp or amp, then I think you will see what Jman and I are talking about.
BTW, I recently heard the GM's (ok not the GH's) with a Mac 275 reissue...worked very well. Some of the older Mac tube amps are great pieces and also work well with the SF's. However, I do think most of the Mac ss amps are a little cold and bright..
Remember, the GH's are highly resolving and will sound cold and bright with that kind of upstream gear. |
Hi DILE,
I think as you no doubt know, there are many, many AGoners who favor McIntosh with SF Homage series. I cannot speak for the C2200 not knowing Mc myself, but it certainly seems like a very attractive proposition: you like Mc sound, many others who have no doubt had access to other products agree which can sometimes be comforting since few of us can try everything out there, and i agree with Jman that tube pre is a good idea here. GHs repond very well to tubes and having them in your pre lends you a little more flexibility to go with SS power if you choose to try the combination. As for REL v Velodyne, i cannot say since i have not listened to RELs much. i can say Velodyne DD series is extremely good for setting up in different rooms given its ability to fine tune...and do so in a very, very stratight forward manner. i got a good deal on Velodyne DD18 and also traded in my 10-yr old Velodyne as part of the deal. Take your time here. just like with the GH, get the right one...dial it in properly, and you wont regret it. good luck. |
Thanks Jman. In the process of home-testing the Guarneris, I found that I like the McIntosh house sound with American Jazz recordings, of which I've got thousands. My present McIntosh is a humble MA6800, which I'd like to upgrade away from in stages. I like it's way of soft warmth with power underneath, but it lacks a bit of detail to me.
Right now I'm looking at a McIntosh C2200 Preamp, which is a tubed pre of Stereophile class A1, if that means anything, really. The price is about half of what it normally costs (I'm not as rich as the average GH owner, it seems), with exchange rates and discount, etc. It's new in the unopened box. If I got that or something else nice, I was thinking I'd then find a powerful SS amp. Do any of you have an opinion on the C2200 tube preamp for the GHs or otherwise?
I've also discovered that REL subs aren't available in Japan, so I'll have to try to get one sent over from Hong Kong or elsewhere. The sub I've got now is just a simple, lower-model Velodyne one bought on the great advice of Lloydelee21 as "proof-of-concept." I really don't enjoy the GH's without a sub. It'll be quite a while yet before my GHs do what I hope for in my home. Velodyne is available here but not REL, while it seems everyone in A'gon likes the REL. |
Congrats on your purchase D.I.L.E.! While the Guarneri's will show any changes/upgrades to equipment they are also quite forgiving compared to other speakers. I have not tried a plethora of components with my G's as they've sounded good with pretty much anything I've connected them to...I think you neede some tubes in the mix to get rid of the 'flat' sound...be it pre or power amp. |
Fantastic!!!!!!!!!!! that is great news, and well worth all the hard work and effort you put into it. If I was of any help, i am glad for it, but you did all the hard work. Many congratulations and i am really pleased for you...as i think all of us A'Goners are out who have discovered new levels of sound and satisfaction.
If you wish to explore the sub integration in more detail now, feel free to keep posting here any questions you may have. happy to help if i can.
on your comment about percussiveness of the bass, it sounds like you probably have a little more "adjusting" to do given how quickly you have had to work just to get the sub set up.
Now that you can fine tune with less time pressure, i wonder about your flooring...specifically if the percussion is too soft, it might be that the floorboards are "flexing" underneath. (It might could be the sub placement, or just the sub itself.) One "inexpensive test" to possibly "sharpen" the bass is to put 4 tennis balls underneath...one under each corner. The bass will get lighter...so just turn up the volume a bit to match...but the bass itself (can sometimes) become sharper , clearer and more percussive.
just a thought. keep posting! and many congrats again.
Lloyd |
Hello Again Lloydelee - I bottle of excellent wine is in order for you!
The lousy quality subwoofer test worked! It took me some emergency tweaking after figuring out the wiring, but I got the sub to blend well enough to convince my ever-so picky wife that the Guarneri is better than the Yamahas, with the sub (which she calls a "bandaid").
I thank you profusely for your patient and clear help. You knew exactly what the priority items were to approach first for my problems with the GH's, and your solutions were economical as well as practical.
If I figure out where in our small and ancient Japanese house to store the three shipping containers (the wooden one for the speakers "will make a nice coffee table," while the one for the stands a "nice coffin" for "someone" as she said when when I first got them home), I'll be able to keep them.
Little does wifey know what long train of equipment upgrades await. Thanks for your help with that aspect, too, Daveyf.
Rachmaninoff on a Bodendorfer on "A Window in Time" sounds rich and full now with the sub, and more like a real piano than through the Yammies, as we tested live against our modest piano here.
Pandolfo's cellos on "A Solo" are really rich and with subtle tonality, much different than I had heard before.
What's not great yet is percussion in general, which is all too soft, and I can't get Cassandra Wilson and her band on "New Moon Daughter" to sound good at all yet. All their rich low sounds come out as dead "thuds." Just getting started...lots to do... |
Hello Loydelee21 - I finally got the sub, but I need some more help with the connections.
The sub has low-pass input and high-pass output RCA jacks.
Connecting the low-pass RCA input on the sub to the pre-out output of the pre-amp section of my integrated amp (McIntosh MA6800) gives me low, rumbly, thumpy bass, the volume and low-crossover point of which I can adjust. This just sounds basically like the GH's as they were, but with some rumbly bass underneath.
I tried the sub connected this way at the shop with some screechy little "Mission" speakers, and it sounded much more integrated than what I'm getting at home with the GH's, so I imagine I need to also connect the high-pass crossover as well.
What I don't get is where on the integrated amp to connect the high-pass output from the sub. Your #2, above says to connect the line-level outputs to the AMP, but the manual says to connect those to the "line-in PRE-AMP input," while my amp has no RCA connection labeled as such.
The amp has the following RCA inputs:
Phono/Aux, CD1, CD2, Tuner, Tape1, Tape2, Tape3, Video.
It also has an "pwr amp in" set of jacks next to the "pre-amp out." Should I connect the high-pass line output to this "pwr amp in" jack instead of the "line-in PRE-AMP input" that the manual cites?
I tried that, but it doesn't seem to make much difference in sound.
As for your suggested wiring #3, since mine is an integrated, I assume I don't need the RCA splitters, am I right?
Sorry to ask such dumb questions, but I certainly don't want to somehow damage my new amp or the GH's.
Getting desparate in terms of time, with just 3 days to go with my trial and wifey adamant that I should send the GH's back. |
Deaf, You should look to the preamp... as I said before, as the culprit regarding your "smallness" of the soundstage! Luckily, I am familiar with the Mac C-40 and therein lies your problem. Pity you were changing amps, but didn't think to change preamps..:0(
In my system the GH's are anything but small in their ability to reproduce a soundstage. Mini-monitors, which these are in a sense, are well known for their imaging abilities...IMHO the GH's have this in spades. |
Hi D-I-L-Eye,
Continuing to do your homework! i am not surprised by your findings...the amp will provide detailing and quality based on amplification...but not a massively different soundstage nor boost in bass, at least not compared with our current amp.
as to the trial sub, i have not heard this one, but did some background checking on it and read thru the specs on the Velodyne website. In general, this sub should give you an idea of what is possible, but it is not a sub that will really be up to the quality of sound that your G produces. but as a test of whether the sub does it for you, it should suffice. some pointers based on the specs:
1. there are 2 ways to test the sub...use its internal crossover, or dont. try both.
2. if you use the internal crossover, use the line-level inputs...not the speaker cable connections. in other words, interconnects from pre-amp to sub...and then interconnects from sub to amp.
i would use the 80hz cut off, not the 100hz cut off on high pass. since it is a gentle 6db slope, i would probably set the low pass around 45-55hz on the sub...too much higher and you may find it "bleeds" up into the high bass territory (100hz) and then you get a muddier sound.
3. if you avoid the internal crossover, then again use interconnects and line-level inputs. the easiest way to do this is to get a pair of RCA adaptors which have one input and two outputs. that way, you stick the adaptor in the back of the preamp...with the 2 outputs, you put one pair of interconnects from preamp to amp, and one pair from preamp to sub.
again, set the low pass crossover around 45-55hz and play around with the volume setting to get the right blend.
in the end, this will give you an idea of what is possible...though the bass quality and quantity will not be the same as using the Velodyne DD-series which is their top level (and appropriate for use with G).
good luck and let us all know how it goes.
it sounds like a bit of trouble...but in reality, if you get the Velodyne to trial, just make sure to ask for a pair of interconnects and the adaptors. (if your preamp has 2 preamp outs, then you of course do not need the adaptors). My preamp happens to have two outs, so i use one to amp, and one to the sub. (i still use sub even with the SF strads) and it makes a noticeable difference. but my low pass crossover is probably closer to 35hz.
good luck!!!!!!!!!! |
It's definitely NOT the amp...Test results
I took everyone's advice and tried out some more amps yesterday, in a 3-hour listening test at the shop where I bought the GH's. On recommendation of the owner, I tried the following amps that were in the shop (it's a used audio shop) and heard the general qualities below. I kept everything constant except the amp.
Recordings (in both players):
Wagner e Venezia, Winter & Winter (wonderful outdoor chamber concert, with extremely detailed outdoor audience sounds)
A Solo - P. Pandolfo - Cello suites (a favorite)
Rachmaninov - Rhapsody On A Theme Of Paganini - The USSR Ministry Of Culture Symphony Orchestra
A Window In Time - Rachmaninoff on a Bosendorfer (amazing reproduction from his paper recordings)
Segovia - Suite No. 3, Courante
Ella and Luis - "Summertime"
'Trane and Miles - "Round Midnight"
Nat and Natalie Cole - "Unforgettable" - Capitol Collector's Series
Cassandra Wilson - "Love is Blindness" - New Moon Daughter
Lisa Ekdahl - "Give me that slow knowing smile"
The Beatles - "Can't buy me love" (for fun)
Bits of some others
Sources:
- Njoe Tjoeb CD4000 player with 24/96 upsampler and Siemens 7308 Gold pin tubes (my own unit)
- iDecco playing WAV files from iPod (my own units)
Cabling by "Transparent"
Preamp:
McIntosh C-40
Amps and impressions
1. Luxman B-10 (SS) monoblocks (huge, heavy, 500 W/ch each)
EXTREMELY detailed, something like old Quad electrostics. I could discriminate clearly among among many people talking and feel where they were sitting relative to each other, even a few sparrow chirps, feet shuffling, etc. in the long intro to Wagner e Venezia. The strings were perfectly separated from each other. The overall feeling was "dry" though, and completely lacked lower notes.
2. Jeff Rowland 501 monoblocks (SS) (pleasingly small and light, 500 W/ch)
Nowhere near the detail of the Luxman blocks, but a warmer "wetter" sound and much stronger low notes. A kind of unnatural, "electronic" quality.
3. Luxman MA-88 monoblocks (tube)
Sharp and harsh on high notes. Didn't listen long.
4. Triode 845 Signature monoblocks (tube)
Much nicer sound than the MA-88, above, but something struck me also as "unnatural" about it.
What all of these told me consistently is that the "smallness" of the soundstage, or "being further away in the audience," as Lloydelee21 put it, is a characteristic of the speakers and not related to my amp, sources, or cabling.
It also showed me that in no way is my McIntosh MA6800 underpowered in terms of delivering bass or width of soundstage, as many of us (including me) suspected. The MA6800 is less detailed than the high-powered monoblocks above, or the Krell/Goldmund combinations I listened to before I bought these GH's, but I prefer the overall warmth and balance among instruments the MA6800 provides.
The Jeff Rowland 501 and especially Luxman B-10 showed me weaknesses in the iDecco's reproduction of WAV files from the iPod compared to the same WAV files played on my CD player, as Daveyf pointed out.
The GH's are truly amazing in how detailed they can be and also how revealing of the various characteristics of the amps and recordings played through them. However, as small speakers, they are limited in the "depth" or "width" of the soundstage (I wish I had more accurate audio vocabulary at my disposal) compared to my floor-standers.
As far as I can see, the only thing left that I can test in my last week of test time of the with the GH's (which is costing me about US$1000, by the way) is how they sound with a subwoofer, as others and Lloydelee21 in particular have suggested.
Lloydelee21:
While I was testing, someone brought in and sold a Velodyne DLS-R subwoofer to the shop. I was not allowed to try it, because it was not yet officially "owned" by the shop yet, but I have first dibs on buying it for a home trial or at least trying it (for free) at the shop. In your opinion, is this Velodyne DLS-R a decent unit to match with the GH's?
Failing the subwoofer test will definitely get either me or the GHs thrown out by wifey (read the previous post I had referred to...). |
..I was very enchanted by your Cellist friends description, also the fact he plays a Guarneri. I am a violinist indeed playing a violin by a maker of that family (there are five of them, believe it or not, the most famous being "del Gesu", the youngest nephew of my Pietro)
I loved mine, but incidentally now use Merlin TSM's
Cannot help you further, feeling you must use speaker for what they are intended; My experience with Accuphase E550 and later Berning ZH270 were outstanding; I personnally could not quite stand the flash character. In difference to a violin, which is a tool, speakers loose that quality, when to glossy. Sorry not much use.
Btw I feel the Yamahas 1000 are fantastic, heard them once at a guys, but he also had a pair of 10000's and they trumped them, thats life. |
...oh and you may wish to try the speakers 1 foot closer to the back wall (ie, 3 feet from back wall) and re-do the toe-in either still directly facing you, or turned out just a little so that you can barely see the insides of each speaker... |
Good morning,
If they're Homages...here is a (very minor but instant) tweak for bass. Make sure to hook up the speaker cables to the BOTTOM connection and run the bridge to the upper midrange/tweeter connections.
ideally, you would have a high quality jumper cable...but that is in the super, super, nit picky ideal situation. nevertheless, i did notice that bass was notably fuller when i hooked up the speaker cables directly to the lower speaker terminals vs the upper ones.
meanwhile, keep us posted this weekend on sub. it really is worth a shot in a hobby that i suspect you are going to stay in for years...trade-ins and new purchases are expensive...but if u have a reasonable path to keep upgrading...because some of your components (like a G) can keep up with upgraded electronics...you will find you are trading in a little less, and certainly making fewer "lateral" changes instead of true upgrades. |
Daveyf, yes, as I tried to say before, I only use the fixed DAC output from the iDecco, and not the pre-out or amp. Thanks for looking into that for me, though. I think the DAC portion if the unit is decent. Mine was the first unit sold in Japan (certified), and as such I got it at a special low price that made it very worthwhile. BTW, I notice zero jitter with the Toslink, and hear no difference via USB. I'll trust you and keep it hooked by USB for the rest of this test, though.
Off to the shop now to see whether there is any way to try something by way of another amp, a sub, and/or cables for a reasonable price.... |
Deaf, reading the Stereophile review of the idecco, it appears that you need to use the fixed output option for the idecco. The follow up specs by JA were also interesting. To my mind, reading between the lines, JA seemed to think that the DAC was fairly good, BUT the various i/o options were not. It also seemed to me a luke warm write up by JA, due to various jitter issues and the like, that JA talked about. I got the impression that the idecco was very marginal in several areas.
As I have said before, there are many of these "Swiss Army knife" like audio pieces on the market now, all of the ones that I have heard are barely even mid-fi, IMHO. |
A bigger, more difficult issue with the GH's - If you go to the A'gon thread:
"Girlfriends and wifes, how do YOU cope?"
to page 6, and see my post of 06-06-10, you will understand another problem I'm trying to deal with while assessing these. Keep in mind that that post was half a year and several new components ago... |
Definitely Homages, and in beautiful condition and complete with all original packaging and a signed booklet with the serial numbers. |
Daveyf, good call on "Mememto or Homage" question.
Deaf, what color are they? Red (maybe Graphite) or Brown? I've owned both at the same time and they are different. |
You're being thorough in your approach, and no one can fault you for your decision. after all, its your system and your ears. You have been very consistent about what is not ideal for you about the Gs, and i have noticed you have been able to articulate it better and better. Good luck with the sub and your search in general. if ultimately, you decide not to go with Gs (w/ or w/out sub), feel free to email back about alternative solutions. Good luck. |
Deaf, something just occurred to me, are you using a pair of Guarneri Hommage or are you using a pair of Guarneri Memento's? The Memento's are still part of the current line up...the Hommage's are not. It seems a little odd that the dealer you are demo'ing from has the GH's! The Mementos look VERY similar BUT are a different speaker. Some of the aspects that you are attributing to this speaker are IMHO a little like the sound of the GM's. |
Hi Lloydelee21 and Daveyf
Daveyf - Thanks for your further details on cables and for looking into iDecco connections. I'll try the USB and see if I hear a difference. The iMac doesn't have a coax connection. As for ordering amps and cables online from overseas, please understand that I am under strict time constraint, and also that it is huge risk to buy an amp without listening first, and I would not do so.
Lloydelee21
My wife and I did another extensive listening again last night, and we are increasingly feeling that the "problem" we are having with the sound is a matter of taste and what we are used to. The Gs are small speakers, and have that sort of quality. Yes, we agree that vocals are especially true and wonderful, but it always seems to be at a cost elsewhere in the overall presentation. Maybe I'm just not a "small-speaker-kind-of-guy."
Based on their reputation, I'm willing and eager to try to get more out of them this week. If I can find a sub and better cabling this weekend, I'll definitely do it.
All of this about buying and trying the Gs started with my dissatisfaction with a pair of NS-1000Xs I have in my office room. While they sound great in out tatami room, they have been relatively anemic in here except on a few extra-good recordings.
One thing that has already come of all this is that I discovered I really like the sound of my McIntosh amp with the NS-1000Xs, even in my office. It seems to have solved that initial problem, which I had thought had more to do with placement, cabling, etc.
The NS-1000Xs are very good speakers, and work well over a wide spectrum of genres. They are not the ultimate greatest speakers in any one area, though. They are still basically monitors, and bad recordings sound bad through them, whereas the Gs seem to "repackage" even bad recordings, smoothing things out and making them more listenable.
I've given the Cremonas several listens over the past few years. In fact, a few years ago they were the first floor standers I had heard that drew my attention away from my NS-1000Xs. They were way beyond my budget back then, but not now. The Cremonas cost a little less than the Gs here. By reputation, they are not in the same class as the Gs, though.
I'll keep updating. This thread has been really great for me, and I thank you all.
|
Hi D-I-L-Eye,
i have read and re-read the very many valuable posts over the last 2 days...in addition to my reply post (which is pending), i would like to address your others questions:
- Aretha. i cannot hear what you are hearing...it is either that the other speakers are set up to be midrange forward (not flat), or that the Gs are not giving you fullnness (in part due to the cabling, toslink, etc).
The only reason i give these 2 primary suggestions for your observation about her voice being recessed/flat is simple: Sonus Fabers (and the G above nearly all of the other SF speakers) are reknowned for their reproduction of beautiful vocals. it is a speciality of theirs. So a flat vocal presentation strikes me as strange.
- i concur with DaveyF that room acoustics/traps make a big difference...i have NOT done this in my own room purely for aesthetic reasons (my system is in my living room)...but daveyf's posts seem entirely consistent with feedback from everyone i've ever spoken to who has gone thru the trouble of using acoustic treatments. in your case, a glass sliding wall is likely "leaking" bass reflection from the back of the speaker...hence why i suggested you move 1' closer to try to maximize whatever bass reflection you can get (without creating muddy bass by being too close). (i bet if the G reflected off a solid wall, the bass would improve...but perhaps that is not possible in your current room.)
- Again, please get the dealer to get you a trial with a sub...it is in his best economic interest to do so!... because you might just buy both!!! I have used Velodynes myself going back 15 years...but given your time constraint...i suggest you get anything...if only to get a "quick confirmation" that a sub will fill in the fullness/bass that you are looking for. if your "trial sub" demonstrates that you can do this...even if it is not perfectly blended, you dont have to buy that particular sub...but you can take your time to find the right sub...knowing that once you find it...the Gs and the Sub will produce the sound you are striving for. Subs today have tremendously more flexibility/blending capability than they use to 10 years ago.
Only you can (and should) make the decision about your Gs...all i can say is that you should take some comfort that the G has garnered a world-class reputation in the press (again Stereophile July 1994...free on-line), from owners, from audiophiles in general...all for good reason. The G truly is a phenomenal (stand-mounted) speaker. Set up well, voices should sound lush, beautiful and true...the soundstage will be intimate but detailed in a very natural, organic way...it will not produce a big sound in a floorstanding manner...but if you find the trade-offs of a sub to be acceptable, i think you might find what you are looking for.. if not, try the SF Cremona.
keep us posted! best. |
Deaf, just to follow up on the article in Stereophile about the idecco. Art Dudley, the reviewer, suggests and uses the USB input from his Mac to the idecco. He also has various other suggestions that you might want to review about the hookup of the idecco. |
Hi D-I-L-Eye,
Been busy and am glad to see many AGoners have stepped in during the last couple of days.
- Glad to see the toe-in helps...i do not know your room, but suspected it might.
- If you slide the G's back towards the back wall about 1 foot, you might find greater bass authority...you will need to re-adjust the toe-in a bit so that you continue to avoid seeing the sides of the speakers...or because of the speaker being further away...you may prefer seeing just a small bit of the inside of each speaker.
- i generally prefer co-axial cable as well...if the MAC does not have it, then trying to adjust this part of your system may be too complicated in the short amount of time you have...dont worry. this is not the end of the world, and you are really looking for fullness and bass. (so see below)
- as for cables, ask your store if they've any old Transparent Ref cables. relative to the description of beldens, try even audioquest crystal cables. again, very helpful to give bigger sound...but see below for more thoughts...
SUBS
- As for sub...my own personal experience ranges back to 1995, and across multiple rooms, large and small. they will give you big bang for your buck for the fullness/bass it appears you are looking for, providing you pay attention to a few critical things:
in general, in smaller rooms, you will find the blend difficult to achieve perfectly...in my own experiences, i have always preferred to keep the sub in and live with the tradeoffs of an imperfect blend. this is because i often listen to hip hop, as well as classical/jazz.
as for blending, i think you if your sub can do a steep (18db-24db) crossover on the sub at 45hz or below (ie, shutting off the sub from producing sound at above this level of bass), and then turn the volume of the sub down to suit your ear, i think you may find your listening tastes may result in the pros outweighing the cons.
Finally, some thoughts on your dealer. clearly, he wants to make a sale...share with him your dilemma and ask that he give you a sub to try ASAP!!! Plus ask for an extra 1 week to trial the sub with the Gs.
As a final thought, swap the Gs for the Sonus Faber Cremonas (not the Elipsa which i believe costs more than the Gs)...the Cremonas look like the Amati Homage...but have a more straight forward sound...and being floorstanding will inherently deliver more bass than a G. And they retain much of the "family sound" of a G...please check but i think they cost in the same range as the G?
Good luck and feel free to continue ask any questions!!! |
