Jazz for aficionados

Acman, we can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I don't see "Live at the cookery" available. I'm going to get the DVD on Montreaux, that should have the same music. I've got "My Mama Pinned a Rose On Me", no filler. Now I'm going to look at everything that's available to avoid duplication, sometime there is a lot of duplication when various CD's are available, I hate that.


Enjoy the music.

Rok, if you haven't ordered yet, I would put "My Mama Pinned a Rose On Me" at the bottom of the list.  Not that it's bad, I just think the others are better.

I keep wandering why I'm so late discovering Mary Lou Williams? She's such a talent, that it seems impossible; especially when I think of all the non talented people who've been shoved in my face, and all the lousy records I have in my collection.

Alex, I'm going to almost clear things up; if such a person existed, his style would have been similar to Fred Jackson's, but that was before he lived in my apartment. The music he played when he lived in my apartment was so advanced from that music, and none of it was recorded.

Acman3's statement is Gospel truth.

The bottom line is; I can not prove the music he was playing during the time he was living in my apartment. My detractors might say, "You can't believe anything he say's". That's fine because I always provide links, no one has to believe anything I say; however, "The mystery jazzman did not practice for one single solitary day, nor did he give any inclination that he wanted to".

Acman, I believe you know who the person that does not exist is, keep it to yourself, and maintain what I told you.

Irony of ironies, when I turned on my rig, (my play list is so long that it plays continuously) the "Mystery jazzman" was playing as a sideman. That concludes this story forever.


Enjoy the music.

Big mistake, I thought Fred Jackson played the organ, but it was "Earl Van Dyke" on Organ.  Since organ is the subject, that's good enough.

I guess you guys are tired of my stories by now; I've still got a few, but I'm absolutely not going to mention any names if their careers were shortened by substance abuse.

Jeanne Trevor is a name I can mention. I remember when she was a stone fox; she's in 'semi retirement' now and performs at our church sometime. I've got her bio here.



          http://www.allmusic.com/artist/jeanne-trevor-mn0000814358



You can check it out, I remember when she performed at a most elegant establishment on Lindel Blvd., that's one of the ritziest streets in St. Louis. She wasn't recording when she was singing there, so I just discovered; that was a big mistake. She sang "torchy jazz songs" when I saw her; she was quite a fox then.

Here she is at a concert in 2013. The best thing about Ms. Trevor is the fact that she's enjoying life; here she is with Wendy Gordon having fun.



                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjJK52t2k60



Enjoy the music.

Alex, that was very good. I didn't see anything "objective" from the writers point of view. From a music teacher's or musicians point of view, there is a lot that's objective, but since I'm neither one of them, my point of view is purely "subjective", and there is no way I can put it any other way.

One of my detractors stated that my post's are more about my perceptions and opinions, than the music it self. Should my post's be about his perceptions and opinions?


"Sharing an opinion with others can be a fine thing, but confusing your opinion, and/or valuation, of the music itself, or even a specific performance, with something absolute, is too god like for me to want to endure. Nothing new here. I said as much 3 years ago."

The above is what one of my detractors wrote. He states that I have confused my opinions as something absolute. Only a person with an "objective" point of view does this, it is my detractor who is confused.




Enjoy the music.

Rok, what was the truth yesterday, is a big fat lie today. I don't know if you've ever watched "Charley Chan", but I'm a Charley Chan fan, and I think about how all the different departments functioned like they were supposed to; now everything functions according to "money", and people do as they are told and not according to the purpose for which they were hired.

For example: raising interest rates was the very worst thing a person could do when unemployment was high, plus a lot of people had those loans where their payments went up if the interest rate went up. Those people lost their homes when they couldn't pay, because their house payments went a lot higher than they agreed on.

"They said", meaning they who say whatever they are told to say; they said those people tried to buy more house than they could pay for; but the truth is those people agreed to payments they could make; say a thousand dollars a month, but when the payment went to two thousand a month, they couldn't pay, and were foreclosed on.

A high school graduate in economics would have known not to raise the interest rate, why didn't Ben Bernanke Know not to raise the rate? He's stated that raising the rate was a mistake. What good does that do all those homeless people? Is knowing how to install a cartridge more important than paying attention to what's going on in Washington?

I know this is completely off subject, but I do that occasionally.



Enjoy the music.

"Not only off subject, but dead wrong. The interest rate on
fixed rated" mortgages never changes. Your monthly mortgage payment will remain constant for the life of the loan. Some people pay their property tax monthly with their mortgage as one payment. An increase in property tax can result in an increase in your monthly payment, but that's due to tax increases not interest rates."


    THE SKY IS BLUE, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT.

Those people were encouraged to take out those loans by their political representatives, who they trusted and believed in. Those loans were presented as the thing to do. If what you are saying is don't believe your government, you got that right.

I sold real estate, and I would not have gotten one of those loans for my worst enemy. I worked for my clients, some of who were not the swiftest, that's why they came to me; I was suppose to lead them.

It's not the house, but the house payment; you're using the same exact language "They Used". What language was everybody using before those people signed the papers?

Why did Ben Bernanke raise the interest rate? He said inflation. Was that a period of inflation when we had high unemployment?

I had a dummy over to my house, whose house is paid for, he was telling me the kind of loan he got and how smart he was. The dummy forgot I negotiated the special low rate loan he got, and I had to bring loans to that company in order to get his loan.

"They bought houses they could not afford". They agreed to payments they could make when they signed the papers. I'm not talking about one individual, but a mass of individuals who were encouraged to take out these loans, and shady fast talking real estate agents who encouraged them.

Can you answer the question as to why Ben Bernanke raised the interest rate? If it was the right thing to do, why did he say it was a mistake? can you answer those two questions; if not, the case is closed.

Rok you were "property" of the US government, you could have gotten court-martial for getting frost bite in Alaska. You were not paid to think; but that's the way all military's have functioned since time began.

It's good to get off subject occasionally. If you notice, none of the wire worshipers but in.



Enjoy the music.

Learsfool, ARC has engineers to design their amps and pre-amps. After the engineers have finished, they have 'audiophiles' to fine tune them. There is nothing "objective" about what these audiophiles are doing, it is all subjective. Any thing that is objective can be measured; how would you measure the beauty of Mary Lou Williams music?

I measure it by my senses. Whether or not anyone else agrees with my measurements is totally moot. How do I measure the soul in the tune "Blue Funk" by Milt Jackson and Ray Charles; that tune has so much soul that it's incomprehensible. In order to capture the nuance completely, a 45 RPM disc and a high end analog rig with tube amplification is required. How do I know this, you might ask; I know it through my subjective senses that are in harmony with others who have the same senses.

How do I know my subjective senses are accurate? By a comparison with many others whose same subjective senses have been acknowledged. "Moanin" by Bobby Timmons is another tune with a high degree of "soul", how do I know this? Because Bobby Timmons music speaks to the soul; not just my soul, but to the soul of multitudes. His music conveys messages without words; it projects emotions that people who don't even speak the same language recieve.

In regard to those who think my perceptions are false, I don't ask them to listen to or believe my perceptions; why should it matter if my perceptions are false to them. Who is the absolute judge of perceptions, and who judges  their perceptions?


Enjoy the music.  

Acman, that trio sounded kind of like this tro;



      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0FIsFD9MXU


Enjoy the music.

Let's explore the music of Ry Cooder; he's all over the place, no matter what your groove is Ry Cooder's got it.

Imagine waking up at three in the morning to find yourself in a landscape with city streets and no houses as far as the eye could see, with nothing but the light of the silvery moon. This is the music that would fit such a setting.


        //www.youtube.com/watch?v=050TIMlpmL0


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOkXrd6eRRw0


Like I said, no matter where you want to go, Ry Cooder can take you there.




Enjoy the music.

Alex, in regard to that movie, I haven't seen it BUT I will. Even if you were an American citizen, you are not supposed to talk about fraud that insinuates the government is involved.

In regard to "jazz" you must be confusing me with Rok, I have no problem with anyone's opinion about the music.

Their problem is they seem to think I should learn something about music, and my reply is

    I DON'T GIVE A HOOT NOR HANG ABOUT LEARNING ONE WRITTEN NOTE, IS THAT CLEAR?

Rok, in regard to your nuts and bolts, take them back to the hardware store. In regard to my knowledge and opinion of jazz music, it has been validated over the years. If you go back through the posts, you will discover that my taste in music is preferred over Frogman's.

In regard to the nuts and bolts, those who regard such in their "jazz" music, make it quite clear, because some of their preferences sound like it.

Let me give yall something else to knock, I do not recall one written musical sheet of paper any where near my "imaginary jazz musician".

If this isn't enough, I got more.

Anything but that! Please don't take away my aficionado card.

Acman, in your first post you stated this was a bassist that had attracted your attention, and I was primarily comparing the two bassist. As you noted, the two piano players are quite different. You said that was Bill Evans bass player, when Scott Lafaro was Bill Evans bass player. Was that Bill Evans bass player at another time?

Was there anything in particular that I missed about that bassist?

Rok, there is no way I'm going to respond to anything, the "wire worshipers" utter. If I had not seen your post, I wouldn't be responding today; as a matter of fact, this post is not in response to anything.

Mary Lou Williams was one of the greatest musicians ever. She had almost no formal training; at age 3 she picked out a melody while sitting on her mothers lap. She began earning money at the age of 6, when she was known as "The little piano girl"

Duke Ellington said,"Mary Lou Williams is perpetually contemporary, her music retains and maintains a standard of quality that is timeless. She is like soul on soul". I could write a book about Mary Lou's qualities as a jazz musician, but I would rather present some of her music and let you be the judge.

Yesterday, I received her CD, "Black Christ Of The Andes", and it's as awesome as any jazz written today;


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNd-X2uMM1k




What is your opinion of this timeless music.



Enjoy the music.

Rok, no matter what you say they will never get it.

Frogman, can you say "stereotypical", that was the sound of Phil Woods jazz. Did he do anything that was unique? He did his best to imitate "Bird", but so did a lot of other people; that was his claim to fame.

Newbee, are we talking about anthropology or music?


Where is Learsfool? That's all we need to complete the 'wackery'.



Enjoy the music.

Frogman, jazz can not be properly defined; if something can not be properly defined, how can it be objective?

Many jazzmen have objected to the word "Jazz". As far as I am concerned, it only defines the music up until the 70's. Some want to argue whether or not Pat Metheney is a jazz musician, I don't because I like much of his music whatever you call it.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUAK02_o9cI

I like this music regardless what you call it. I find "stereotypical" jazz boring.

No I'm not defining jazz, I'm defining me, as you should define you.



Enjoy the music.

I heard this live;



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9SVGZGaGdA


Although there is all kind of distortion, can you hear beyond the distortion; this is jazz musicians just jammin, all improvisation.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8z0u9oS9Zc


These are St. Louis musicians playing for the joy of making music in 1960. I hate these cuts are so short. Late night when they were live, they went from one idea into another, the way improvising musicians play, and 15 minutes was typical. Compare what you have on record, to Horace Silver live, and note the time difference. The organ or the guitar took the music in a different direction, and it was like follow the leader; this is what improvising is all about, no written music.

No amount of practice will enable you to improvise like the top jazz musicians we've discussed, and Frogman knows it; either you got it or you don't.

They used the word "practice" as if I'm saying these musicians never practiced; evidently they think I'm a "MOW-RON". How many times have Learsfool and Frogman inferred that?

Grant Green would come into his favorite lounge, lean up against the jukebox, and just start playing, of course no body said anything or minded. After he finished, he would have a drink and leave. He was lean with a thick head of hair, and a build like a cowboy. When this baldheaded dude who was slightly overweight came up to me, I didn't know who he was. Time brings about a change. While there was a change in his looks, his playing just got better and better; he never evolved to some unrecognizable music that he called jazz.

To me, this music is living and breathing, it's a part of me.



Enjoy the music.

Frogman, precisely what is being discussed? The conversation I see is bouncing around like a pin ball in a pin ball machine. Why don't you specify a conversation with defined parameters and we'll discuss that.

Frogman, would you care to explain why and how, Mingus's "Epitaph" owes so much to Charles Ives?

I get it, if there had not been any classical music, there would be no jazz. Jazz musicians who did not study classical music should be discounted. All jazz musicians studied classical music before they become jazz musicians. That's why Miles left Juilliard. Are all or any of the above correct?

Learsfool, you are cleverly evading my statement, consequently I have to repeat it; "You will never be able to improvise like the jazz musicians we have discussed, no matter how much you practice, or how many schools you go to".  Your statement was that you have to practice in order to improvise.  You have to practice in order to play "Jingle Bells" properly.   

Have we concluded the practicing and improvising?

Frogman, I never heard of Charles Ives before you mentioned him.  Did he jam at Mintons?

Rok, those two Sam Lazar links are very important; using your Harvey, Sam Stewart analogy, that was as close to any music I could find that Harvey was playing that Summer. Listen as well as you can through the distortion.

Sam Lazar was like a shooting star; he burned brighter than any of the other stars for a minute or two, and then went out. Fortunately, he played many local clubs, and I caught him as much as I could.

Sam Lazar was an American pianist and Hammond organist originally from St. Louis, Missouri. A mysterious figure who disappeared from the music scene in the early 1960s He is best known for fronting a group that included early work from guitarist Grant Green. His first LP on Argo Records approximates his birth year as 1933. Initially a pianist, Lazar played in Ernie Wilkins group before Wilkins left St. Louis to join Count Basie. This was followed by a stint in George Hudson's big band which also included Clark Terry and Jimmy Forrest at various times. After a tour with alto saxophonist Tab Smith.

In 1958, Lazar saw the Jimmy Smith trio at the Peacock Alley club in St. Louis and was inspired to play the Hammond organ. His St. Louis-based organ combo later included guitarists Grant Green, Joe Diorio, George Eskridge, drummer Chauncey Williams and saxophonist Miller Brisker among others. Not only did the group play a variety of gigs from strip clubs to jazz clubs, but they were reportedly one of the first interracial combos in the area.

Lazar recorded a single on Cawthron Records, and then went on to make several albums in the 1960s for the Chicago-based Argo Records. His first, Space Flight, was recorded in 1960 and added bassist Willie Dixon to his regular working combo featuring Williams and fellow St. Louis musician Grant Green.

He disappeared from the music scene in the early 60's, and nobody seems to know what happened to him. Musicians like him are definitely worth a listen, especially if you can find a CD without so much distortion.




Enjoy the music.

Rok, that is the most expensive CD I've ever seen, and he was one hell of player. In order to know just how good he was, you would have to have seen him live. Sam was a wild man on a organ; he could make it howl and growl, sounds you never heard coming from an organ. If money was no object, I would buy the CD, but since money is very much an object, I wont; however, I can go to "you tube" and reminisce.


Enjoy the music.

Rok, after checking on "Willie Dixon", I'm still not sure. From what I can see, there seems to be more than 1 Willie Dixon.

Alex, I listened to "Bud Shank's Quartet", and it was just the kind of West Coast jazz I've been looking for. It's going to take time to down load more, I'll keep you posted.

Alex, I've been listening to "Bud" since the last time I posted; it's cloudy and warm here in St. Louis, a perfect day for just "chilling" and listening to some good "West Coast" jazz, and that's exactly what I've been doing, thanks.

Enjoy the music.

That's good news Rok, now all I have to do is get my darling wife to give me $296.90 to buy that CD.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, I'm over that "culture thing" I had with the Delta Blues, and I can appreciate the Blues for what they are; just don't tell me Howlin Wolf was influenced by Tchaikovsky, and everything is OK.

Enjoy the music.

Chuck Berry is another "home boy", he had the "Juke Joints" overflowing. If a guy wanted to see any girls, he had to follow the Blues, because there were very few ladies where you heard Miles and Trane. The best way to find the ladies was to follow Chuck Berry; where ever he was, the joint was over flowing with females.

There was so much live entertainment in St. Louis at that time, that it was hard to decide where to go. I'm going to find more local jazz from that era, and you come back with "The Delta Blues".


Enjoy the music.

Rok, here we go with some more St. Louis jazz. Peanuts Whalum is the guy I know about; could he blow, he had one of the best jazz bands in St. Louis; that might be stretching it a bit, but it didn't cost an arm and leg to see him; that was when I had to darken my top lip and wear a hat to look older when I went to the clubs.


              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBJGQ6FlEdY



              http://jazztimes.com/articles/17480-hugh-peanuts-whalum-hugh-peanuts-whalum


Enjoy the music.

learsfool, "There are many things one can and does practice without the instrument, especially when they involve thinking about musical ideas - you often do not need to physically play to be able to work them out in your head."

When you word something like that, "How can you be wrong"? When he was having a bowl of chili across the table from me, I could have looked at him and said "Uh huh, I caught you practicing, I know that practicing look when I see it"

Learsfool, who am I to believe, you or my lying eyes? How many times do I have to tell you that the man was living with me? How many jazz groups have you played with? Is it ever possible for you to say, "I don't know"? Just because you and the Frogman say a thing is so, does not mean that it is, "It ain't necessarily so".

Frogman and Learsfool, an even better practice time was when he was sleeping; he could dream practice the whole performance. Why didn't I think of that. As usual, the Frogman and Learsfool are right.

Rock, when I was digging "Peanuts" I had to darken that peach fuzz over my top lip, and wear a hat to look older, and hope no one ever asked for ID at the clubs he played.

Me and "Peanuts" were a lot younger then, and of course him and his band were a lot better than on that clip.  There was so much live music at that time, that I rarely stayed home and listened to records.


Enjoy the music.

Frogman, if you want to pursue this conversation according to the book, we could begin with "Ragtime" and Scott Joplin, followed by New Orleans jazz styles; which migrated to Chicago, and became "Chicago Jazz Styles", that was followed by "Swing", that evolved into "Bebop", that merged into "Hardbop", which cooled down to "Cool jazz", after which came a wide divergence and jazz split into "Free Jazz", "Soul Jazz", "Fusion and Rock Jazz" plus "Acid Jazz", and we can not leave out "Smooth Jazz" plus "Latin Jazz" which does not include "Brazilian Jazz".

As our lead jazz musician, where would you like to begin?



Enjoy the music.

I hear you Rok; no body seems to be happy after we diverge; but we'll get Alex's input on this, we might even get some "wire worshipers" input, they always show up when there's a disagreement; do you think they'll show up now?

Maybe we should run this thread on two different tracks simultaneously; trains do it; but somebody always seems to jump their tracks and we have a head on collision.

Getting back to local musicians; a pianist I talked to a lot, could play Horace Silver's tunes as good as the man himself, and I was always asking him why didn't he go to New York, and become rich and famous. He kind of "sluffed" off the question, and never answered. After reading about Grant Green, I believe he knew something I didn't; these local musicians ain't doing too bad; nice homes, car, and I heard he had a beautiful wife to come home to. Why go on the road and get mis-used and abused.

Jazz musicians might get famous after going to New York, but how many get rich?



Enjoy the music.

That was a fun clip, was it from a movie? I enjoyed it; in these time we certainly need a lot more uplifting fun type of music, and there was nothing more fun than the "Boogie Woogie".

Enjoy the music.

Rok, have you ever noticed that the people who complain about what I talk about, never have anything to talk about themselves.

Right now I'm listening to "Moanin". The same one that's on the album, the album that's better than KOB. Every time Bobby Timmons strikes a piano key, I hear something that I've never heard before, although I've heard this tune a million times. I can stand to listen to Benny Golson's solo on "Along Came Betty" forever; if they (KOB people) feel half of what I feel when I hear Blakey's album "Moanin", I can understand why they buy so many copies.

Here's the link just in case you haven't heard it for awhile.


                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv9NSR-2DwM




This is "Along Came Betty"



                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTzRHq_cH5E



Benny Golson's sax is as smooth as silk; where can you find something like this on KOB?




Enjoy the music.

Rok, I have seen more complaints about me than you can shake a stick at. Is this thread titled "What's wrong with Orpheus" or "Jazz For Aficionados"? If it's the first, a lot of people are batting 100, but if it's the latter, they have failed to contribute anything.

Who ever has a complaint about this thread can change it any way they want to; do you want the latest in jazz? Fine, link it up and let us hear it. Do you want Classical? That's good to, I have no objection? If you want Hill Billy ( post it on another thread) OK, but I can't promise I'll listen.

See how easy it is to have it any way you want it.



Enjoy the music.

Acman, I had to check the calendar to make sure it wasn't "April fool day". Since that's not it.... I'm going to pass on this one, and let Frogman make the judgement.

Rok, I was comparing Nica's book to the 100 best jazz tunes of the 50's, and noticed there is an incredible, almost 1 on 1 correspondence to the two; practically all of the people in her book, are represented in best jazz tunes of the 50's.

I didn't know it, but both of yesterdays tunes, "Moanin" and "Along Came Betty" appear in the 100 best jazz tunes. That's unusual for 1 album to have 2 tunes in a best of compilation like this. KOB does not have even 1 cut in this book; whatever that means, I'll let others decide.

While yesterdays selections were coincidental, today I'm intentionally choosing two selections from that compilation. Miles 'Round Midnight' and Dave Brubeck, 'Take Five'.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIgLt7LAZF0




              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHdU5sHigYQ



Enjoy the music.

Rok, you're right on time, I wandered the exact same thing.

I'm going to find another one, back in a minute

Rok, believe it or not, this is better than the original



            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El3lMf_Mfhc

This one is from the LP



            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzpnWuk3RjU