Jazz for aficionados

Jazz is not related to Africa, but people called "African Americans".

Slavery hasn't ended, it's still here in the form of it's descendants; those people in the inner city whose parents were uneducated and illiterate; consequently they were born behind the 8 ball.

John F. Kennedy realized there are two things every human being needs; that's a job and education in order to be more qualified for a job; his philosophy was assassinated 54 years ago. People with those items on their resume rarely wind up on the evening news.

It's not about race, it's about "opportunity" and who a person's parents were; people whose parents were educated value an education, therefore they are unlikely to wind up in the crime statistics because they generally have a career.

If anyone wants to understand the South, Flannery O Conner is a good place to start; Mary Flannery O'Connor was an American writer and essayist. An important voice in American literature, she wrote two novels and thirty-two short stories, as well as a number of reviews and commentaries. Born: March 25, 1925, Savannah, GA Died: August 3, 1964, Milledgeville, GA
Short stories: A Good Man Is Hard to Find, Good Country People, National Book Award for Fiction

She was born, lived her entire long life in the South, and died in the South; everything she wrote was related to the South.

It's 100% impossible to understand the inner city without understanding the South, because that's where the inner city came from.

This post is about "sociology", which is one of the subjects I studied; that science regards large numbers of people in specific groupings, as opposed to the black guy on the evening news who robbed the candy store.

I would appreciate it if you ignored this post as opposed to running to the moderator and declaring it "inflamatory".

Fourwinds, since this thread began we have discussed more than jazz, and probably will continue to do so in the future; however, we feel we can walk and chew gum at the same time. Since this is one of the more enlightened threads in regard to jazz, one can take the option of totally ignoring off topic posts, and simply respond to those relating to jazz.

     
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3jdbFOidds


Swing with it.

Frogman, there is no such thing as "jazz" that one can refer to in any meaningful way; latin jazz, acid jazz, dixie land jazz, and on and on; what are you referring to?

I consider Charley Parker as "The Creator" of my kind of jazz. "Birds" racial lineage is mixed up with who knows what? Therefore you can not attribute any factor regarding "Bird" to Africa, other than the color of his skin, and when you discover there are some black people who are more Caucasian, than some white people, color of skin really gets flakey.

Frogman, since I am not a musician, you are going to speak a language that I have no comprehension of, and submit that as your proof, when it's for sure I can't refute it. I stand by what I hear and consider that as proof.

"Bebop" is a long way from Africa according to my ears.

Now that you mention it Rok, Fusion did not survive the transition from records to being down-loaded to the computer.

If it's agreeable to everyone, lets hang into this Cuban thing for awhile; I like it's authenticity, you can feel it.

Rok, can you give us a review of the CD you just got?


Enjoy the music.

Here's a most interesting tune from Chico Freemans album "Destiny's Dance", it's titled Wilpans Walk; have you heard it before. What do you think?


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRih07ksHDE


           

"Christo Redentor" is one of the most beautiful tunes I have ever heard, and I can still remember the first time I heard it. Just the other night, while searching for LP's to down-load, I discovered a new copy; was I elated.

It was so long ago that I don't remember when, but if I saw a new copy of one of my worn out collectors albums, I replaced it, and Donald Byrd's new perspective was just such an album.


I am enjoying the music.

Frogman, I only believe what I hear, and I don't hear anything "African" in "Birds" bebop.

I think since the music was developed primarily by "African Americans" it has to have some African quality in it, but I can't hear it in bebop.

People have the ability to connect the dots in strange ways when they want to.

Alex, I remember Horace Parlan from Mingus Albums, also he was especially good on "Salt Song" with Stanley Turrentine; these are the albums I have with his work as a sideman, now I'll have to get one where he's the leader.



Enjoy the music.

Rok, Lee Morgan is "smokin" as usual. Wes Montgomery sounds better on albums before he had those hits, and changed to a more popular oriented sound. I only have scratchy records of the time when he was deep in a jazz groove. New CD's sound so much better than records.

Rok, Javant, here is some interesting work by Mingus, that I don't think Rok presented;


                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0uOJzabdqQ


                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOKjTzW4IWM


                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiWrMX6bJCs




I like this album because of the varied changing moods it presents; reminds me of when you look at the sky and the sun is shining, then abruptly dark clouds are overhead. I use to play this for my parents when I was at home, "Yall quite bugging me now, just let me be cool".




Enjoy the music

Even Wynton's jazz is different from "My" jazz; Wynton could not "make" jazz when he left Blakey. Everybody, including me, thought he would be the best trumpet player ever; he was, except with other people's music, he could not make original jazz.

Latin music is not "African American" jazz, my jazz is the evolution of Charles "Yardbird" Parker; specifically the evolution of "Bebop". His jazz evolved from a very unique race that had been stripped of it's original characteristics, consequently developed something "new" that was it's own; "Bebop".

Frogman, on your first post, there was Wynton Marsalis; he wasn't presenting things from my point of view, he was making his presentation from his point of view. At a minimum, that does have something to do with "Wynton Marsalis".

I thought we had narrowed the discussion down to "Bebop", and what evolved from that. "Jazz" is far too broad a subject to have a meaningful discussion about; as an "Aficionado", that is something I am sure of.

Rok,
Jerry Gonzalez & The Fort Apache Band -- OBATALA

Great group with a silly name; that sums up a lot.

If I saw this at a record store I would keep walking because of the name, but now I'm going to order something by the Fort Apache Band.

"The Music Of Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers" for sure, will be ordered. This music rates 5 stars with me.


Enjoy the music.

Listen at how "Bird" bops, and at the same time plays the melody of this beautiful tune; the bop is sometime over the melody and even "bops" the melody at times; he does that all the way through this great album; bop riffing all over and under those most musical melodies. Nobody, but nobody else can do that.


                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmRkZeGFONg

Rok, here is something that will verify all of that which you speak;


          http://www.blackpast.org/aah/scott-hazel-1920-1981

Frogman, when it came to slavery, "NOLA" was different from anyplace else in the USA; some black people owned slaves, white people didn't mess with some black people, some black people were not black, it was a place where original "voodoo" that came from Africa still existed; consequently it has to be removed from any "general" discussion about slavery.

Shubert, is that really you? Where have you been? I'm glad what I heard isn't true.

I know you've been abroad, why don't you tell us all about it.

Jazz is an art form that branched out like the many headed "Hydra"; acid jazz, fusion jazz, world jazz, low jazz, high jazz, slow jazz, fast jazz, smooth jazz, rough jazz; you name it jazz, and on and on; consequently, no one can make a statement about jazz, unless they specify which jazz, now we can add "congo square jazz".

Frogman, tell me how do you like this one;


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeAHASFqvb4

Frogman, Rok is saying not everything has an "African Heritage", some things came "uniquely" from people who are descendants of African slaves. They evolved from a slavery so severe that it stripped them of everything from the land which they came; therefore what was left, was not African anything, unless you can consider a light brown skin, African.

Miguel Zenon is from Puerto Rico, and I like his style; yes, his heritage is part of that. Although he has played with some of my favorite musicians, I'm unfamiliar with him.

He has quite a bit of formal education in music, as many current musicians are fortunate to have on their resume. As has been implied, I do not subscribe to formal education being unnecessary, but merely point out the fact that I know musicians who did not get it. For the record, not having formal education in music is a distinct disadvantage; another to go along with all the other disadvantages some musicians in the past had.

I will look forward to acquiring and listening to "Miguel Zenon" in the future.


Enjoy the music.

Everything has to have a name, and it got the name "bebop" whether Dizzy approved or not, but this was a distinctly unique form of jazz that could not be imitated or duplicated, nor did it have any connection to Africa what so ever in regard to that origination, not even if you produce an edict from the Pope, and that's the last word on that.

I have a closer connection to this music than some notes written on a piece of paper; I have had a very close connection to a musician who could not read music, but he could produce some of the most incredible "hard bop". The fact that he couldn't read music wasn't as much of a hindrance as you might think. He couldn't read music, but graduates of Juilliard School of Music couldn't produce "Hard Bop". It would have done him no good if he could read music, but couldn't produce "hard bop".

I am certain that the ability to produce this music is beyond comprehension, and there in lies the crux of "Bird's" great music. I like "brevity" that's why I use Bird as a kind of shorthand for the originators, instead of including the other "originators".

The biggest problem with this music was the fact that the "aristocracy" had nothing to do with it's creation. At first they belittled the music, and only begrudgingly gave it legitimacy. After the public accepted this music, they had no other alternative. When they found no way to easily create it, that's when they began to attribute the music to other co-originators, which I assume is what you are trying to do now.

Frogman, this music is akin to resonant frequencies; the music is broadcast on a specific frequency, while the receiver is tuned to the same frequency. If you are not properly tuned, you can not properly hear the music. Staying on the same wavelength as this music, is my life's pleasure.

Well now Frogman, we have never had so many posters at one time, and although an "off topic" subject has been discussed, a lot of good music has been posted also.

We even got Schubert out of hibernation; who should know by now that people who live in glass houses don't throw rocks, especially in this direction.

I think this proves we can chew gum and walk at the same time, but I'm not rejecting your thing about staying on topic; however, what was discussed very much related to the topic.


Enjoy the music.

Speaking of dress, sometime ago when I took the family to "Red Lobster", I dressed in business fashion, sport coat and tie; which was the way everyone else was dressed.

When I wasn't looking, someone changed the dress code, and all these sloppy looking people started coming in; that's when the food no longer tasted as good, (probably the same identical food), but I quit "Red Lobster".

You tricked me Schubert, the SE France is near Italy, and you were probably never in the circus; wasn't Circus Du Soleil, was it?

Schubert, Are you going to be around for awhile, or just until they discover that you're missing?

Abdul Malik, is a bassist we only touched upon; while he's known for adding a mideastern flavor, I would like for us to investigate the numerous times he has been a sideman with other jazz musicians.




          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5_Ciot3wsE


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kPrfmqOaTM



          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebru71tMvzw



Enjoy the music.

Rok, somebody been playing games with your geography book; aside from that, I liked the unusual combination; kind of like okra with champagne.

One thing is for certain, whether it's old jazz, or old Cuban, it's old school for me. Maybe old Cuban music will get on the good side of Frogman.

Gonzalo Rubalcaba, is he old school or new school? Did we ever close the case on Africa? I am going to have to start keeping a notebook.


Here's the real deal from Cuba; frogman has the floor, who did what, did somebody teach the Cubans how to play? This music is just too good.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYBCVZk_idM&t=213s


Which reminds me of this documentary I was looking at on South Africa; they discovered some artwork, they said had to have come from another planet because native South Africans were not capable. I say the old Europeans hit up on time and space  travel, and did it before the New Europeans discovered South Africa.

Rok, Frogman has the floor, and we are going to listen and learn.

Since Bassmen are primarily sidemen, except for OP and Mingus, their best work can be found on records headed by others. For example Milt Hintons best work, in my opinion, is on "Heavy Soul" with Ike Quebec.

                           
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1cTgZDUsSc

They made this record when Ike was dying and they knew it, hence the title "Heavy Soul". Milt Hinton's bass contributes so very much to this cut; but all of them played their hearts out on this album.
         

According to Frogman, Duke Ellington's bassist, Jimmy Blanton was very influential. Also Ray Brown, Paul Chambers, Milt Hinton, Charles Mingus, Wilbur Ware and, Oscar Pettiford. LaFaro was a pivotal figure in the bass world but hardly the first important bass player.

Jafant, perhaps you can find Jimmy Blanton's best work. Wilbur Ware is another bassist I don't think we've explored.




Enjoy the music.

Alex, I think I have it, but I'm glad you mentioned it, because I don't recall hearing the boss tune you posted, recently for sure.

Lee Morgan brings out the best in Benny Golson. Regardless how many times we mention someone, when you're listening to something special by that someone, please share it; this is one of those tunes that's very special, and I don't immediately recall it.

Pryso, I've been waiting for someone to answer your question, but that's not my thing; although I enjoy the best recorded CD's and records, I don't make any effort to discern anything other than the music.

Frogman, new people are posting who may or may not have heard this tune. While almost every tune I post will be a repeat for you; when the tune is that good, it's better to err on the repeat for those who haven't heard it.

I am a Chico Freeman fan since the "Kings of Mali" that came out in 77, long before the tune I posted.


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buFUP2LvK2s


I buy records for the overall music, and not the sound of a specific instrument.

Another example of an artist whose tone you criticized was "Billy Bang"; while his tone most certainly is not on par with a classical violinist, I like his music much better. Me and Billy Bang are philosophical brothers; he's a vet who had hard times in "Nam".



      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R22OfE5R0_0


"Yo, Ho Chi Minh is in the House"


Git down Charley Brown!

Stephane Grappelli is one of the giants of jazz with an extremely beautiful tone; he has so much beautiful music that I would break my bank just buying half of it; but here is some of it that I like, this is the most romantic and dramatic.



              https://www.google.com/search?biw=1024&bih=662&ei=sjQfWo7CDsPzarTIpZAF&btnG=Search&q...



Back to the jazz violin; Ray Nance who is known for trumpet, can really jam on a violin;


   

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJxSYBKugpE

Lay it on me dude, I want to hear it too; the afro in the Bebop, before Diz added it onto the Rebop and called it "Afrobop". But since he did it without consulting the "Bird" that would make it "illegitimate", and not worthy of my consideration.

Let me conclude our current debate before we move on. That debate concerned "modern jazz" as has been defined as jazz that originated with "bebop" and for our purposes ended in the 70's.

The debate was over whether or not African music had anything to do with the origination of this music, and the conclusion was no it didn't according to the majority of "Aficionados"

Now we are into Cuban music, "Son cubano is a genre of music and dance that originated in the highlands of eastern Cuba during the late 19th century. It is a syncretic genre that amalgamates elements of Spanish and African origin. This is the official definition, and also describes the sound of this music.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpJ4hF8EBZg&list=RDZpJ4hF8EBZg#t=16


This album is an introduction to "Son Cubano"; I hope we can all stay on the same page for awhile. The last time I was able to make a considerable high quality increase in my collection was when we stayed on the same page, and investigated a single musician. I am positive that we have not been exposed to nearly enough of this music, and can make many positive discoveries if we stay into it long enough.

Acman, you seem to have ears for the best in a new genre of music; therefore, I have confidence that you will choose music which I will add to my collection.



Enjoy the music.

"Bebop" was called everything except a child of God and music; I don't think there were any authoritarians who even considered where "Bebop" came from.

Now if "Bird", Monk, or "Diz" told me they consulted Chief Bey, and got his final stamp of approval on "Bebop", before they could really swing with it, then I would become a believer.

Chief Bey put rebop in the bebop, and got religion along the way, can you dig it?


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DHzFOim3Uc&list=PLiGJl0CoGRhttCozknuOVHaCXcUQRY26A

Frogman, I have noticed that every time you have the choice of leading a new segment of jazz, or diving into a "Bruha", you choose going back into the "Bruha" and then blaming me or Rok, for not being able to entangle yourself. No one knows more about Cuban music than you, but yet you choose to point out where "Bebop" was originated in Africa; why do you do that?

Frogman, I'm capable of communicating with people from various sociological and economic groupings, and quite often express the mood I'm in at the time. Sometime I'm in a hip mood and choose to express myself in a "jazzy" manner.

At other times I'm in a "Southern mood" and attempt to use "good old boy" dialect to communicate ideas unique to the South.

But by now I know it is foolish to communicate to you anything other than that which you wish to be communicated.

Since it's been a long time since I've been to school, please point out any grammatical errors you have found.

Frogman, your objective is not to communicate an idea, but to change the subject and win the argument; that's been pointed out many times. At other times you choose to impress with your long diatribes.

Apparently you and I listen to different Bebop, because what I listen to was not influenced by anything in Africa, and even the influence you're talking about is so minor, you're the only person who can hear it, but the bottom line is the fact that it's so inconsequential.

Modern jazz ended in the 70's, serves to identify what we have been calling "classic jazz", or "jazz jazz". Aficionados can choose to identify and define things within their group that would not fit the universal definition, and that is what we have done, but since you know this, why do you claim otherwise?

The more I think about it, the more ludicrous it sounds, "Bebop influenced by Africa", you must be speaking of "Afrobop"; you win, can we go on to the next thing?

When I hear the Blues, Gospel, Spirituals and Jazz, I hear the USA, primarily, the Southern USA. Ain't nothing like it anywhere else.

Rok, this is what I heard as a child, nothing has changed. Most Blacks are from the South and I don't mean South Africa.

This Cuban music contains the best elements of Africa and Spain; presently, I don't like either one of them undiluted; but they came up with the right combination here. You won't find music this good in Spain or Africa.

I remember when they told me that stuff Ricky Ricardo on the Lucy show was playing was Cuban music. Why did they have to throw "Hollywood" in everybody's music?

One of my favorite old movies is "The Casbah". Katherine Dunham has the part of "Odette" in this movie, and they paid her for this dance thing, which is funny, because I've seen her dance troupe, and I know she didn't tell them to do anything like that.

What's funny Rok, is that although they paid her, they never used her choreography; in the end, they always used whatever funny steps hollywood prescribed. Back then, as long as they got paid, who cared.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LASYzcH67F0


This stuff is really funny when we can use our PC to go back in time.


Enjoy the music.

Jafant, as I recall, checking out the bassist was your idea, and we're still waiting on your "first" investigation of a basist. It was suggested that you give us a report on Jimmy Blanton.

After getting a description from "Wikipedia", next you go to "you tube", select the music you want us to hear, copy and past; it's just that simple.

By spreading these investigations around to everyone who shares in the rewards of new music, no one is overworked.

Thank you.



Enjoy the music.

Frogman, before I knew one genre from another, I liked Gypsy music. That was when the movies was the source of a lot of the music I heard. I'm sure I've heard Menuhin on some soundtrack in times long past.

Thanks for the clip.


I've been listening to an artist that I think we have overlooked; here she is on one of my favorite tunes;


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZHrIsvDMmw

Now back to the Jazz! Bird's the word when we talk about Bebop, and everybody knows that, he is the undisputed King. We are not talking about just a lot of notes played at lightening speed, but music you both hear and feel.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryNtmkfeJk4


This is first of all MUSIC, and second it is Bebop, but first it's music you can listen to and enjoy.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmRkZeGFONg


You got it my friend, this is Bebop in between the beautiful music; nobody, but nobody else could do this.

When I first heard "Just Friends", I thought I had discovered something new, that was probably in 59 or 60; when this was done in 49. It still sounds new and fresh to me, as does the whole album "Charlie Parker with Strings".

Thank God I don't hear Africa nowhere in Bird's music.

Rather than for me to take up all the space with my favorite cuts, I prefer you bounce between the album with strings, and "Bird's Best Bop" to find your favorites.

Just one more;
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1bWqViY5F4




Enjoy this music.

When it comes to Cuban music, I can not say enough good things about this CD, "Afro-Cuban All-Stars" it covers "Son" which is Afro Cuban music combined in perfect proportion like a perfect cooking recipe.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KODWcrncnUU

Although we went here once, I would like to go again; I'm sure you will find it very rewarding.

Enjoying exquisite music is like enjoying a perfect recipe. I was in Atlanta for a time and discovered a place where they had perfect "bouillabaisse"; every time I went there, having the same dish was an experience, and I had it every day, savoring each spoonful. Nowhere since, have I been able to repeat that experience.

I compare listening to "Son" equivalent to that experience; take your time and let each beat soak in; this music is so perfect; while it says Afro-Cuban, the two are combined to become one, which means you would have to mash the two words together in order to describe it.

This music inspires thoughts of Caribbean fantasy's; one of them I actually lived, but living fantasy's can shorten your life span, they are best left in the realm of fantasies.


Enjoy the music.

Frogman, "Body and Soul" is not "Bebop", nor is Coleman Hawkins a Bebop musician, give me a break.

Music can not, nor should it ever be approached from an intellectual stance. Why would I speak to Billy Taylor or Wynton Marsalis about Bebop? When it was the first corner of jazz I explored.

While Dizzy could be a co-founder of Bebop, Bird was numeral uno.


Don't mean to be harsh, but you have submitted food for the garbage can.