Rabbani, in a large room, you will need a speaker with higher sensitivity than the Silverline's 93dB if you intend to use the XA-30.5, in my opinion. The XA-30.5 started to run out of steam in my 24x19 room. The Sonata III speakers do have Dynaudio tweeters. Either the esotar or esotec tweeter, whichever is the smaller of the two. |
Tvad, Thanks for your reply....My earlier setup with small room. Now I have apportunity to move a new flat which has big room. So,I am plan to change the speaker to floor stand. I believe that you have silver line speakers hence am seeking the suggestion, whether any of silver line speakers (f/standing) can match with my xa 30.5. Also I need to know your speaker has esoter tweeter (of Dynaudio)? |
Pass Labs is not so much about marketing. Pass employs audio enthusiasts who appear to go out-of-the-way to help their consumers. Customer and technical support are among the top. Their products are extremely well built. They introduce new product lines every few years, only when an improvement has been made. And their products span the full range without being duplicative. Nelson Pass has a collection of white papers on amplifier design which are classic. He would probably be as happy helping you make your own amplifier as he would in selling one of his own. The equipment is respected and holds its value. This company is the real-deal in audio. Perhaps some feathers were ruffled on the dealer side of things in the past, but they seem to come through for the consumer. I have had an x350, an x600, and an x600.5. When I was contemplating a change for my new set-up, I spoke to several people at Pass to discuss the merits of the xa160.5 vs. xa200.5, and found them to be responsive, genuine, and helpful. I decided to go in a different direction, but I could live with an amp from Pass. Not everyone loves the sound, nor does everyone have to. Personally, I do not quite understand the market for low-powered solid state amps. If others enjoy, then good. I think the x250.5-x600.5 are great amps that could be had at a good value. I also think the xa100.5-160.5 likewise are statement pieces. There is no such thing as a perfect amp. We just have to find what works best with our systems. For now.... |
Discussion lately about Pass XA.5 seems strange to me. Typical comment about Class A amp is that there is insufficient brightness, and not the other way around. I thought my XA60.5 does a fantastic job preserving the fair balance of upper frequencies relative to the mid and lower. An over-emphasis on upper frequencies grab your attention at first, as it gives you the illusion that the equipment is precise and detail in producing the sound. But you soon find out that the sound stage is hem in and the sound is rather harsh. I don't see that in the XA60.5 at all. As to the lower frequencies, if you are looking for that extra dance club banging so that you can shake with the beat then there are many significantly less expensive amplifiers that can do that for you. As to the XA60.5, I definitely feel the jolt when the particular recording actually calls for it. |
Oops, sorry, Tvad, I quickly perused a few reviews and saw a few comments on the newer esotec tweeter and assumed in certain situations it might be too much or would have to be matched correctly. Peterayer, I definitely think they're market savvy as a company, just like any other that has been making money and stayed around for as long as they have. I think that's great. I wish a few others from the past were still with us. With my limited listening time with them, I can't really comment on their sound any more than I already have. I could tell that it wasn't for me, my list is growing longer. But isn't that the nature of the hobby? |
06-04-09: Chashas1Huh? If you read my posts, you will see the brightness was corrected due to the Pass XA-.5 amp doubling power as impedance is halved, thus producing more equal decibels across the frequency spectrum even though the impedance varies. It has to do with the mids and bass being produced at volumes equal to the highs. If the highs are produced at volumes greater than the mids and/or bass, then the perceived result is "brightness". Many amps that double power as impedance is halved will have the same effect on the Sonata III speakers, or on any other speakers with significant variations in impedance. Belles amps are an example that worked well in my system. Many people hear brightness in their speakers, and immediately look to replace the speakers as if it's the speaker's fault, when in fact it's the fault of an improper amp/speaker match. It has absolutely nothing to do with market savvy. |
In the example above we are talking like a maximum of 4 db difference this is not dissimilar from what some people might do with a tone control to adjust for room acoustics and preferences. I found a good explanation here Please note that if you have a speaker with a fairly flat frequency response (varies between 6 to 12 ohms) then differences in presentation from a low output impedance amp versus a higher output impedance amp will become considerably less. It is not that a particular amp is right or wrong or a particular speaker is right or wrong => it is just important to consider the two (depending on your amp you might steer clear of certain speakers or depending on your speaker you might steer clear of certain amps. It is all about synergy. |
...as has been mentioned in other threads, since the topic of Silverline speakers and tubes vs. solid state has been thoroughly discussed, different Silverline models work better with tubes than other models due to flatter impedance curves. The Bolero model is one example. So, one has to consider specific Silverline models rather than generalize about the brand. |
06-04-09: Chashas1 I attended two CES shows (2004 and 2005), and one LA audio show (2005, I think...) at which Alan demonstrated his speakers with a Pass Labs XA-600 amplifier. He also had a Silverline 300B tube amp available if anyone wanted to hear his speakers driven by tubes. During discussions with Alan, he told me he voices his speakers with Pass Labs, and it was during one of those conversations that he recommended Pass Labs as an optimal match for the Sonata III speakers when I mentioned my concern about a perceived brightness in the speakers. He also mentioned Belles amps as a less expensive alternative. |
Shadorne, you nailed it. Basically, the tube amps produce varying decibel levels across the frequency band, with the higher frequencies (and the higher impedances) generally having higher decibel levels relative to the lower frequencies (and the lower impedances). There are several Sonata III owners who happily use tube amps, so it seems we are not all equally sensitive to tonal imbalance. |
To be more exact, the result was a tonal imbalance with the highs louder than the bass and midbass, resulting in a tipped up or bright sound. The tube amps used were VAC MusicBloc 160 push pull and Atma-Sphere M-60 OTL. Physically that might be explained by the higher output impedance of the tube amps. As output impedance nears that of the speaker then you will modulate the amount of voltage reaching the voice coil by the variation of the speaker impedance with frequency. For example, if the amp has an output impedance of 4 ohms then where the impedance of the speaker drops to 4 ohms you will get roughly half the voltage at the voice coil than you get at a point where the speaker impedance rises to 40 ohms (at 4 ohms half the voltage is dropped across the output of the amp while at 40 ohms only 10% is dropped). Obviously, if the speaker has been designed to be flat in frequency response when driven by an SS amp then you will hear a "tilted" presentation when played with a higher output impedance tube amp. I am sure Tvad knows this very well - having directly experienced it and based on all his other knowledgeable posts here on Audiogon. So my comments are simply intended for those who are puzzled as to the cause of Tvad's observations...that's all. |
Tvad, I was doing a search on the silverlines, (I've always wanted to hear them) and I saw several mentions where Alan Yun preferred tube amps. It might have been for a different model. Regardless, it sounds like you've sorted it out to your liking, and after all said and done that's the important part. Just because the Pass gear didn't work for us doesn't mean it won't for somebody else. My new mantra: Listen for yourselves, people! |
Rabbani, your choice of speakers will depend on your room size. I'd suggest anything 90+ dB given a small or medium size room. A large room would require a more sensitive speaker. Impedance curve characteristics are of less importance since the XA-.5 series amps double power as speaker impedance is halved. However, IMO, you should choose speakers before selecting an amp. Having done it the other way around, I realize what a mistake it is. |
I have used tube amps with the Sonata III with unsatisfactory results. To be more exact, the result was a tonal imbalance with the highs louder than the bass and midbass, resulting in a tipped up or bright sound. The tube amps used were VAC MusicBloc 160 push pull and Atma-Sphere M-60 OTL. The XA-60.5 amps produce tonally balanced sound, and the tipped up characteristic is gone. |
06-04-09: Rtn1 Rtn1, are you referring to me? If so, I have used tube amps with the Sonata III with unsatisfactory results. The Sonata III have an impedance curve that dips below 5 ohms. They are not as tube friendly as the sensitivity and nominal impedance suggests. Extensive discussions with Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere corroborate this conclusion. As I mentioned, Alan Yun voices his Silverline speakers with Pass Labs amps. There must be a good reason. |
With all due respect, I do not understand why one would use efficient, tube-friendly speakers and then use a solid state amp. There are a number of reliable and easy tube amps out there (ie. BAT). Solid state should be for inefficient speakers (4 ohm and less, 90db and below) that have a different set of sonic priorities. |
RmRobinson1957, Although haven't listened to Krell I believe in Krell's excellent handling of the bass given the number of acolations they receive. It might come down to your expectation for the total package, from top to bottom of the frequency range. As for me, I can tell you that I have not heard of any Class AB amp. coming near to realism that a Class A amp can, such as my XA60.5. Elsewhere in this thread I already described what that means. As to the bass itself, my speakers have their own powered subwoofers but I don't crank up their volume because too much bass would cloud out everything else. Leaving the sound to its natural setting, I have no problem at all getting distinctive bass that pound the ground when the music calls for it. As to comment about preamp, mine is the Bryston SP2 playing music on the 2-channel bypass mode. Bryston is known for bass. Perhaps that helps; perhaps it doesn't make a difference to the Pass XA60.5. |
nothing fancy, some regas, some others, all can time normally in the same room, with various other gear. I kept thinking the gear wasn't getting it's due, yet everytime something else replaced it the system boogied again. I could see where the amps would be a great mate with ultra revealing speakers, at least for the mid/uppers. The low end I couldn't understand at all. It was big, to be sure, but sluggish. Was it the newest phono stage you've heard? I can't remember the model, I think retail is $3800-4k? Anyway, not to slag the gear at all, for certain ears or certain gear it might be just the thing. But I've got my suspicions. You read the articles, the reviews, you know the company history, without hearing it you love everything about it, and then you hear it. I'm finding this to be true about a lot of gear lately. Too bad. |
Chashas1, not to beat this to death, but what speakers were you using? I'd like to know for future reference. FWIW, I thought the Pass XONO phono was boring, and I've thought the Pass Labs rooms at CES were also fairly bland. I've found pairing my XA-60.5 amps with preamps other than Pass have provided good boogie (Lamm, SMC Audio, and believe it or not Juicy Music...). |
Various speakers, Tvad, with all pass gear. and it was their wiring. as i said, beautiful voices, especially say like a frank sintra record, then, you play something that needs to boogie, and it couldn't do it. You nailed it when you said no glare, smooth as anything, yet that's all it could do. I've heard the phono stage in other systems, wonderful. I'd buy it. the other stuff, no way. A real eye-opener, to be sure. |
Dear Rtnl - I'm basing my impression of the XA30.5 from the outset that the only thing I change is the power amplifier from the normal situation (Krrel FPB300X) to a new situation (Pass XA30.5). The rest of the equipment, romm etc. is unchanged. Krell are famous for bass control, so its not supprising that other amps have other traids. By the way, I use Exactpower EP15A on cd and preamplifier. |
For bass detail and speed, consider these determinants: 1) Powercords, particularly on your source components. 2) Amplifier power. Your woofer may have different needs compared to the rest of your speaker depending upon size, #, and crossover design. 3) Interconnects and speaker cables. 4) Room interactions. New components often require speaker position changes, even if you did not change the speaker. Bass is inherently slow. Large waves in an accoustic hall coming from an acoustic resonating instrument should convey some ambiance. The exception might be when the percussionist dampens the instrument after striking, and the sound should recover fairly quickly. Electric bass is not always natural. Some amplifiers convey an illusion of fast bass through the midrange. I think some people are looking for a type of bass from their system that does not exist. Anyway, the main point is to review the entire system to achieve the sound you desire. |
Well, the XA30.5 is an excellent amp. I'm sure. However a small amp. will always have difficulties controlling large areas of woofer - like the VA The Music has. The damping factor is 150 which ok but not extremely high. "The Music" has the possibility of adjusting the bass in a few steps. When i reduce the bass the result becomes more in the right ball part ;-). Rooms are smaller here in Europe so room gain is a factor. The IC's are Audence AU24. Balanced all the way. Speaker wires are Kimber 8TC. When I'm playing marginally loud the needle moves a bit. It does not cross the vertical line, but is moves. Maybe the XA60.5 would be the right choice in my case;-). The XA100.5 are too expensive for me. |
Soren, 50 ohms is great. What brand and how long are your ic's to the Pass? Is the needle on the Pass moving when you are experiencing the flab? My 30.5 had more articulate bass on my Maggie 3.6 than my previous McIntosh 1000 watt monoblocks (as long as the needle wasn't moving). Going to Pass's 100.5 was a noticable improvement in bass. I haven't heard the 60.5. Twice the power would only give you 3db more loudness BUT that plus each channel having its own power supply would give your more control. Maybe not enough for your taste or speakers. XA power is expensive. Have you thought of trying one of the X.5 series? |
Soren, I have the XA100.5. I used to have the XA160. In my system, Eggleston speakers 87dB/6ohm, the 160s were a little slow/heavy in the bass as you describe. The XA100.5 has much faster, more articulate and defined bass and are better balanced overall. Great control over the woofers. The mids on voice and strings are exceptionally involving - lots of body and presence. I have not heard the XA30.5 or XA60.5. Matching a pre to Pass amps is very important. I auditioned a very well regarded tube preamp which sounded terrible in the bass region with my amps but great in other systems. |
The Pass Labs XA-30.5 and XA-60.5 don't display the shortcomings in my system that you describe, and since I'm not familiar with your system, room or listening preferences, I can't offer an alternative based on experience. Just for something to research...I've never heard the amplifier myself...you might do some reading about the new Modwright KWA 150. |
I have used both the XA-30.5 and XA-60.5 on my 93dB/8 ohm speakers, and there is not an appreciable difference in sound between the two amps in my system. The XA-60.5 just play louder. If the XA-30.5 aren't creating the sound you're after, I don't think switching to the XA-60.5 is going to result in a worthwhile change. |
Hi I'm normally running Accuphase DP-67, C-275 and Krell FPB 300CX on my Vienna Acoustics The Music. My goal is to get some more body voices - the bass with the Krell is fine ;-) I have tried Pass XA30.5 in my system and I especially like the midrange and the involvment. What I don't like is a rather slow and to heavy bass. The speakers are 4 Ohms and sensitivity 91 db. They have three 9 inch woofers pr. side. Can anyone comment on if XA60.5 would solve the issues I have with the XA30.5? It's bigger amp but I have read here on Audiogon that the sound is very similar - they just give a possibility to play louder... (?) |
Unsound you are correct in theory. The good news is that most companies which bother to produce such unwieldy beasts also care more than usual about quality because these are not produced for average audiophiles but for real old school die hards who don't care about size, heat, looks, efficiency or the latest " review". Spatine there are many well executed pure class a designs even though I admire Nelson Pass designs and have enjoyed talking to him from time to time about all things audio. - Jim |
