Preamp Deal of the Century
Cello(Larry)-When you say the newer models are better,which model did you mean? I have an older Syrah,from reading this thread I took the recent improvements to be centered mainly in the phono section of the Cortese or did I miss something? I understand that Mick has continued to improve things along the way,it just seemed like he was happy with the Syrah and most of the large development was on other models. Kirby |
I just wanted to share a photo of my Supratek. It's supported on a Sistrum platform, which apart from the sonic advantages, looks very cool IMHO: http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1112246444.jpg Rack support is an Adona double stand. I believe I've noticed sonic improvements with both supports added, although still tweaking things. The sistrum may be overkill for support for this application - the improvements were more substantial with the SP-004 platforms I added to my Virgo II speakers. I used to get a lot of comments/questions from guests on the Supratek, but I get even more now that the Sistrum is under it. Looks pretty aggressive. I guess the subjec is covered somewhere in this long forum, but I'd be curious to learn what others have found for optimum support for this great preamp. |
. Guidocorona, . Please do keep in mind that comparisons and expreriences along with associated opinions formed from earlier Supratek models have absolutely nothing to do with the value of the current models. I can tell you from owning an older Suprattek Pre and a current model that the newer models are just amazingly better (with no slight to the earlier models). . Rgds, Larry . |
I think there are at least a few of us fortunate enough to have had both the First Sound and Supratek preamps in our systems at various times, and in all fairness I should preface my remarks by saying it seems to be a split decision on which is "better." I recall reading somewhere in these forums--perhaps it was in this same thread, many chapters back--that one member definitely preferred the First Sound, and I believe he had the same iteration I had, which was the Presence Deluxe Mk2. While I very definitely admired the characterics of the First Sound, in the end I found that I preferred the Syrah, a judgment that comes with all the usual qualifiers (in my system, according to my listening preferences, etc.). So my impressions, for whatever they're worth: First of all, I thought the First Sound had absolutely stunning dynamics, jaw-dropping as the cliche goes, but an apt description of my reaction the first time I heard the unit. Another quality I admired was the First Sound's uncanny black background, much better in this regard than the Supratek (although I have found that if you are very patient, you can do wonders lowering the noise floor with the Supratek with various tweaks--isolation is really important, as are finding the right tubes, of course. My Syrah is quiet now, but still not as eerily quiet as the First Sound was). On the other hand, and I guess this is where the battle will be joined, over time I just felt that there was something not quite right with the First Sound in my system. While I continued to be impressed with the slam and absolute clarity of the First Sound, I felt that the soundstage was somehow slightly more compressed than I would want from a tube preamp. Granted, I had solid state amps--Bel Canto EVO 200.2 monoblocks for awhile, and then a Plinius SA-102--and the issue may be entirely one of synergy. But I can also say that I traded notes with another owner of a First Sound--who also admired it--and he had pretty much the same take on it in his system. He eventually moved to a Joule preamp, and said the soundstage was much more layered, more holographic, with the Joule which is just how I felt when I moved over to the Supratek. For me, the Supratek, properly matched, tweaked, and tubed, simply gets the music right more than any other preamp I have heard. It strikes the right balance between dynamics and slam, crossed with the liquidity and magic of tubes. I have lived with it for a couple of years now, and the only time I ever think of upgrading is when Mick comes out with his latest and greatest. But with two kids--including a newborn--I doubt I will be upgrading anything any time soon, unless it is my spending priorities. That's OK, though. As long as I have the Supratek around, I'll be happy as a clam. If it is practical for you, I suggest you try both in your system and keep the one you like best. Should be a cinch to sell the runner-up. Was for me. |
I think this is the right URL TRON ELECTRONICS? Direct links to the PRODUCTS You'll need to scoll down the page. |
. Get a Denon 103 or a 103r. This is the best out their for the money and especially in your price range. I would suggest you spend the extra $ 50.00 and get the 103r version. . Do spend some money on some good NOS tubes for your Cortese if you have not already. I would highly recommend getting a good matched pair of NOS or good used Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plate 6sn7's for your Cortese, they are well worth the $ 250.00 that it will cost you. Then change the Rectifier and Regulator tubes. Email me off line if you want some recommendations. . Best Regards, Larry . Rgds, Larry . |
This is a world class preamp, which is handbuilt by the designer with bespoke components, NOS valves, short circuit paths and everything else you desire (www.tron-electronic.com). Technical points aside, it sounds like natural, as if all the grain has been lifted from the recording. Check out Ed Barker's review in 6 moons.com. |
Thank you TVAD for the well thought railing. Product line analysis is a very interesting exercise. The sweet spot of any given brand may lay anywhere along the range, from the most expensive unit to the least. As for ways to enjoy this hobby and related shopping/researching activities, there are a nearly infinite ways to enjoy it/them. Clearly though, unless I find an FS dealer on the way of my work travels in the next few months, I will likely need to create a black-cloaked side trip to a relevant watering hole. In the meantime I will keep asking questions on this site on areas of interest to me. Thank you for your understanding. |
Guidocorona, I was not so much defending the First Sound as I was railing against those who feel that nothing less that the top-of-the-line offering from any manufacturer is worthwhile. This surfaces again and again in these posts with many brands. Nevertheless, I hope if you are seriously considering one of the more exclusive First Sound products, and not just pouring gasoline, then you'll pay the $400 or less that it might cost for round trip airfare to visit a dealer and hear one for yourself. You often post and ask questions about only the most esoteric and exclusive gear, and I can't quite figure out if you're seriously looking to purchase, or just window shopping on Park Avenue. Know what I mean? |
Thank you TVAD, loved your post! But no, alas I have no bias. Rather I think in matrices. I was just observing and pointing out the slightly skewed distribution of comparisons in this thread and tried, and should say succeeded, to elicit a reaction. I did speak to Emmaneuel just today: unfortunately there is no First Sound in Austin where I live. Next week I'll be travelling to D.C. but there is no FS dealer there either. There is a proud FS owner in Virginia, not far from D.C., but that is outside of the D.C area. I should really kick myself though. In january I ended up in Florida in the general vicinity of High End Palace and should have visited there, but did not realize Larry Diaz carried First Sound at the time. I am delighted that you are defending FS!! |
You know, Guidocorona, your post has the bias of supposing that because the First Sound Presence Deluxe II is at the bottom of the First Sound family that it must by default really suck. You cannot be further from the truth, and frankly, you are doing yourself a disservice by discounting the Deluxe II so readily. Why is it that such elitism exists in this hobby, in which only $50,000 units can only be considered worthy? Hell, if you're sitting on a pot of gold, then buy the First Sound Paramount Statement and be done with your search. That is if the First Sound "house sound" is to your liking. How about putting forth the effort to actually hear a First Sound? It can't be that difficult. Contact Emmanuel Go and ask him how. Good luck on your search, and apologies for the rant. I feel better. |
I have scanned with interest this thread, seeking info about perceived differences between the First Sound family of linestages and the Supratek family. It seems that a probable majority of posters prefers Supratek devices over the First Sound Presence II. On the other hand, First Sound has a wide range of devices, very much like Supratek, with approx 15 different models. A number of chassis ranging from 2 to 6 per unit. Power supplies ranging from approx 200K MF to over 500K MF. Choice of series step attenuators or ladder step attenuators in the volume controls. Choice of Holco or Vishay resistors in the volume controls. MIT, Cardas or custom copper capacitors. A variety of wiring and grounding designs. I have not had the fortune yet of listening to either the First Sound directly, or the Supratek family as such I cannot comment on audible differences. yet I seem to have observed that the comparisons this far may have been mostly between various models of Supratek against the lower models of the First Sound lineup only. Has anyone performed some matrix comparisons? Or at least compared the higher end Supratek against the higher end First Sound models in the Paramount, Special Edition and Statement series? |
Zachzdb, I wrote to Mick last week to ask about his DAC. He said this baby would be ready for shipping later this year. I did not ask how much but someone in this thread mentioned ~USD500. Anyway, below is the extracted from Mick's email: "We've got a good DAC, but it doesn't sound like SACD- it sounds like vinyl!" kenji |
I have received emails from an individual who has heard both the Exemplar and the H-Cat and he said he had never heard such garbage. I have no dog in this fight, but I trust and respect the opinion of the source. TBG (Norm) are you still a dealer for Exemplar? (I know you were listed as a dealer on their website at one time). I am sure very few are aware of that fact! As I recall, an AA board member warned you to register as a dealer and to stop saleshacking for Exemplar on the Asylum. And do you have any financial or personal arrangement with Roger (H-Cat)? Several "good ears" who have heard both the Exemplar and H-Cat have had wildly varying experiences (bad) as compared to yours. As I said in an earlier post, maybe some people may prefer another preamp over the Supratek, but I don't ever remember anyone saying a Supratek sounded, weird, strange, unnatural, etc. as some have described the H-Cat. But then again, I suspect they have no "incentive" to report anything other than the facts. |
Having heard Edgar's Chardonnay in his room last summer and having had one of the first Syrahs, I would like to comment on what he and I heard in our two Suprateks. He says, "A mild criticism I had of the Chard (much as I looked for something for crying out loud) was its soundstage, which I found to be marginally narrower and shallower than I was used to from my previous reference preamp." I have not heard the new Sauvignon which he says is far superior, but this is one reason why I abandoned Supratek. The Exemplar preamps all give a very wide and realistic sound stage. I do not know what is at the base of the Sauvignon's improved performance in this area, but Edgar thinks it is a better power supply. If so, Syrah and Chard users should seriously consider the Sauvignon in my opinion. although it is far more expensive than the Exemplar $2500 line stage. As I am notorious on another thread for extolling the benefits of the H-Cat solid state preamp, especially it PRECISE sound stage, I naturally would say that it too is a better investment if realism in sound reproduction is your goal. |
Ray, thanks for thinking about me and the preamp problem. I'm ready to throw in the towel since I'm way over my head here. My opinion is that Mick needs an authorized US repair person. The expense and wasted time shipping gear to Australia and back is just too much to expect out of supposedly valued customers, IMO. If this has happened to Steve and I it's just a matter of time until others are similarly affected. In no way is this a criticism of the performance of this gear when it's working right. I'm just pointing out something that Mick should address. Bottom line is that I'm truly heartbroken. I'll probably not have this in my system. To make matters worse my old Audible Illusions went belly up and repair will exceed it's value. Now I'm using my sucky solid state unit. Ouch!! |
Jazzdude,check my 2 20 05 post,i read the review ,good informative review,the Chardonney review has some nice pictures too,i have a Chardonney on order,,Kevin,hope everythings going well with your new preamp!looking forward to reading your thoughts ,,,Lugnut,,i hope your preamp problem has been resolved!im thinking about ordering some NOS tubes while im waiting,,,,is the Tubestore a good place to to start ? |
Abill, I have the Denon 103R and works great on the RB250. Mine is OL Silver (moded 250). I know it is a little bit high from your budget stand point, but the arm needs a medium to low compliance cartridge because of the mass. Another good match when I have the RB300 is the Benz Ace series which can be bought used at around $250. Also, the regular Denon 103 is another cart you could consider and I believe is priced lower than the R version. regards |
Hello everyone I have a Cortese and I am in the process of rebuilding my first turntable (Lenco L75) . I have a rega rb250 arm and I want to get a cartridge. I was thinking of getting a Stanton 881 Mark II S Cartridge, is this a good cartridge for starters ? I want to spend less then $200.00 and may upgrade later when I tweak everything in . I am open to comments and or suggestions . Thank you for all the great information !! |
Supratek Cabernet : really at the top ? I am wondering if, as some people here say, the Cabernet is really a competitor for the "best preamp of the world". Do you think it can competes with ARC REF3, CJ ACT2, etc. ? Of course it looks better, of course it's nice that it's done by only one man and it costs twice less. But is it really one of the very best (cost no object) ? Also a question. It has output transformers but I have seen somewhere that it is directly coupled. Isn't there a contradition here ? Thanks and regards. |
I have been enjoying the Chenin quite a bit for the last two weeks. My Chenin has all stock tubes except for a GZ-37 Mullard. I am wondering if anyone might have some vintage tubes for this preamp they might be willing to sell. It is hard to imagine that this preamp could get much better but this must be the case with all the tube rolling that is going on. Bob |
Most torroidal transformers have electrostatic screen. Besides, it is unlikely that DC will be present at the secondary. I would suspect that it is possible one of the rectifer is bad. If you have a scope, you can look at the ripple voltage after the filter caps or at the regulator input to each channel. Most of the time it should be small (in order of millivolts). But if you measure around 100 mV or more, that could be the problem. Just my thoughts..... |
Brian, the noise was a mechanical hum from the transformer in the power supply of my Supratek. Rather loud. Now there is just a faint hum that you can hear if you put your ear near the hole in the top of the power supply. Before I could easily hear the transformer humming from my listening chair. And BTW, the AC Offset Killer didn't seem to affect the dynamics at all, nor did it seem to add any coloration. I used solution B. |
Swampwalker, I understand that the buzz only happened after the Joule returned from repair, and I also assume from your answer to Bwhite that the Supratek does not do this with other amps, e.g. the Berning. If part of a circuitry has a weak ground--for example, the return (ground) connection on an interconnect or RCA socket--then this can cause the signal to "find ground"--i.e., induce a current over dielectrics--in other parts and induce buzzing in tranformers. Once the Joule and Supratek are connected via interconencts they are essentially a single circuit--and you are getting noise in both power supplies. My guess--and this is simply a guess--is that either the process of connecting and disconnecting interconnects has created an intermitant short in one of them, or shipping may have caused some minor weakness in one of the many internal ground paths in the Joule. Because every component is different, it is coincidential that connecting the Yamaha C2A "curcuitry" doesn't induce errant current flows, but connecting the Supratek's does. Try: 1) swapping a few interconnects; 2) inspecting, flexing, and testing them for continuity with a voltmeter; and/or 3) opening the Joule and looking for weak solder joint. |
Fiddler - Thanks for the information, I'd like to know a bit more about your solution. Was your amp making a mechanical hum, or did you hear buzz from the speakers? What isolation transformer do you use? Do you connect the system like: A. AC Offset Killer --> Transformer --> Supratek B. Transformer --> AC Offset Killer --> Supratek |
Swampwalker, I had the same problem. It was DC on the line. I fixed it with a combination of the 'Ah! AC Offset Killer' and an isolation transformer. The 'Ah! AC Offset Killer' seemed to be 90% of the cure. Now there is just a teeny hum that you have to listen very carefully to hear. I mentioned this fix to Mick soon after I got my Supratek and he said he would look into it. Not sure what happened after that. |
