As for power cords I use all Sonoran Plateau..The Plateau has the Micro-Bearing steel insulator. Really wokeup my Krell SACD player..Everything is now in the right proportion and with even greater perspective..I have the old Sonoran cable hardwired right into my Melos outboard powersupply. Even though it will be a hassle to replace the cable I will upgrade to the Plateau..Tom |
Bwhite
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Please do share your observations on the new power cord once it is in and broken in.
Assuming you love it, please also let us know how to get one.
Thanks
. |
Steve. Nice post . "Fine tuning" is the more appropriate word here in this thread. I have a sneeking suspicion that most of us here have "been there and done that".Many of us have experimented with IC's,speaker wire,tubes etc,and can hear the differences these may or may not impart in ones room.I suppose some might call that tweaking,one can call it whatever they want.I would preferr to call it Fine Tuning myself. Are you fine tuning your proacs or are you "tweaking" them??? A superb choice in speakers [by the way] and one that is very dear to my heart![still miss my response 3's to this very day] Interesting......I would classify that type of work as being in the tweaking category and I am certain Stuart Tyler would also call it "Tweaking". He has "voiced" all of his response series speakers to sound as "beautiful" as they do. Steve.... no disrespect here,I am very intrigued to be sure,however; I just don't believe there would be any reward in modding that speaker with a raven ribbon......and yes, I do believe the Raven is a superb driver.Hope you will post your thoughts on your Tweek. Cheers. |
Or, In search of the next level. Tom |
Nice posts guys...you *are* a civilised lot on this thread!
Having played devil's advocate and illicited some good responses, I would agree that some final tweaks to an already good system is icing on the cake and therefore can be beneficial.
Cello: your comments are nicely put and I've 'been there and done that' (ie, implementing a lot of tweaks over my time). A lot of you also hit the nail on the head by stating that system synergy is the key to good sound. I guess my simple point is if you feel you are missing something and feel the need to tweak, look first at your major components (such as your loudspeaker) and see if a fundamental change can be made. No amount of tweaking will improve a lack-lustre speaker for example.
Ecclectique: Like you, I have a lot of different equipment at my disposal, I may have left the tweaking urge behind some time ago. I find these days that it is much more challenging (and satisfying) trying to add a Raven ribbon tweeter and requisite crossover to my Proac Response 2.5 loudspeaker etc...etc...than say playing around with tweaks.
In the end, to each his own and we all do in audio what we are able to understand. I don't thinking tweaking is a bad thing and it keeps the fire burning for audiophiles. I guess instead of calling it tweaking we should call it 'fine tuning' to add some credibility to the whole issue.
Regards,
Steve M. |
Bwhite, the most effective way to reach the synergy we all wish to achieve is thru high speed mechanical grounding techniques. Ground is the point of reference,and the most efficient way to reach the reference is direct coupling..Tom |
**THE** power cord for Supratek? I have what I believe to be the best power cord EVER for the Supratek. I was planning to post info on it but the designer just changed his design. I want to compare the new design to the old before making any recommendations - just incase the new is better than the old or vice versa.
The new version is supposed to have twice as many conductors as the old version & that's the only change I know of.
The price of the cords when I purchased my "new version" a week ago was $250 for a 6 footer. I think he offers a trial period too but I'm not sure.
The new cord is on its way from Canada and I'll post more info once I've heard it. |
Once a system reaches a certain point of refinement (synergy), finding components (or cables, tubes, etc) which further IMPROVE the system can be VERY difficult. Simply replacing a component with a more expensive component or one which is rumored to be better, doesn't always produce an improvement in overall sound.
Tweaks are an effective way of further refining a system once this point is reached.
Additionally - tweaks can be an effective means of obtaining synergy between components that do not synergize naturally. |
Hey Gang. I suppose what one might call a tweak,another may call it a component.In defence of stevem and keeping things in perspective, I certainly concur with every point he made in numerical order, as they would most definitevly qualify for a top shelf system for making great music and more often than not will make a major impact to be sure. Heck...I own one of everthing he mentions on the list with the exception the digital dac stuff. However... I have also heard every single one of those components mentioned on the list sound mediocre at best, for a number of reasons[my gear included here gang].I personally believe resonance and vibration control is imperative when one gets to the level of equipment mentioned on that list. Tweaks?? I don't think so Stevem. Optimizing a system of that calibre is paramount and really should be considered the common denominator here. |
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Steve1960
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Thanks for your contributions to this thread. Your comments have been appreciated.
I think it is wise to try to define what type of sound pleases one most and then work hard to find the best synergistic component combination that works towards that end within the context that your budget (and then some) will allow.
We have all been fortunate to have the Audiogon Thread forum to learn from the experience of others. I have a Cortese (and are thrilled with it) only because of the honest, intelligent and sharing people who were willing to pass along their collective experience from their trials and tribulations. Sam Levinson, an oft quoted American journalist, once said “Learn from the mistakes of others. You can not possibly have the time to make them all yourself”.
I have learned over time that many tweaks do not yield just small increments or fictitious improvements, but rather some pretty dramatic gains. Assuming one has gotten as far as one can with the major components, missing out on taking your system forward with the benefits of the so called “tweaks” would leave one far short of what you might other wise enjoy.
I assume that you just have not had the positive experience of changing out a power cord or adding some sort of mechanical ground that yields a jaw dropping improvement to the sound coming out of your system.
To be sure, some lesser quality component pieces that have large short comings can have their liabilities masked or compensated for by the help of a power cord or interconnect. But, I have yet to find a major component piece that was not objectively improved with the addition of a well matched power cord or mechanical grounding device or system.
I would not favor dropping a tweak in my system in lieu of adding a superior pre-amp, amp, speakers or front end piece that I could afford, but I also would not want to miss out in getting the most of what components I have by over looking a good Tweak. Why argue for a limitation against an improvement
Steve,
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I would suggest that you try a set of Symposium Roller blocks (that do make a difference) under your pre-amp or front end piece or try Tom’s suggestion of using the Sistrum system (although I am not familiar with it). Bwhite might be able to share what his best power cord has been for a Supratek pre. Do make the time and effort to search out some good tweaks and you will certainly be pleasantly surprised and rewarded for your efforts.
I continue to be flabbergasted by the sonic improvements as I have worked my way through tons of tweaks and have uncovered some real gems. Several of the tweaks I have tried could be considered to have benefited my system as much or more than some of the good component upgrades I have done.
. |
Stevem1960? 'feel good'? I'm not going to flame you. But it makes perfect sense for us to try to get the very best out of our investments. I certainly wouldn't go to all this trouble if it didn't make a difference. |
Hi all, I hate to de-bunk this tweak fest you are having, but it's my humble opinion that significant equipment changes or even just trying out alternative audio technology yields much greater improvements than poking around in the dark with tweaks!
As a humourous but true example, I once tried Yamamura Millenium 6000 power cable (@ $400USA) on my Bel Canto DAC-1 and convinced myself over an evening of listening that it was the best thing since sliced bread. Only to wake up the next morning and upon trying my standard power cord, finding that the sound had not changed much at all??
You see, my standard cable for the DAC-1 is a thin bit of zip cord with an in-line switch taken from the rear end of a child's Teddy Bear night lamp (the DAC-1 does not have on ON-OFF switch and this cable allows me to switch it off at will). All I can say is that it must have been a magic Teddy because the cable coming out of it's arse/ass did wonders for my system and more than kept up with the fancy Yamamura power cable!
Tom & others, my advice is:
1. Get a Supratek preamp, they are relatively cheap and get you connected to the music better than any tweak you may have tried.
2. Try Electrostatic loudspeakers like the Quad ESL-57/63 or for that matter ribbons like Apogee Stages or the like. Planar/dipole sound can be the most realistic experience.
3. Try Horn loudspeakers, they can be revelatory.
4. If you must have cone speakers, try and get one with the most expensive drivers and most inert box. Drivers such as Raven Ribbon tweeters; Accuton Ceramics; Cabasse honeycomb foam (21NDC); Eton; Beryllium drivers are excellent and more truthful than all others.
5. Everyone should have a S.E.T 300B/2A3 valve experience at least once in their lives!
6. Bel Canto EVO digital amplifiers and 24bit/96/192kHz DACs are wonderful devices - period!
7. Get at least a Koetsu Rosewood cartridge (or better), a good cartridge makes a greater improvement to any turntable than any arm or deck upgrade/tweak you might make.
In my experience, all of the above changes in equipment yield significantly superior results than tweaky things.
For what it's worth ...
Regards,
Steve M.
PS: Before you flame me, I'm not a total heretic and do use Solid Tech supports under my cdp and other 'feel good' products in my system like the rest of you. |
Well gentlemen I am a proponent of Sistrum technology..It is everywhere in my system. In side components as well as outside. Under my subs under my Dunlavy's, under my Dunlavy external crossovers. I have an Sp6 rack and 2 Sp101's, one under each of my amps that are built around Sistrum technology..The acoustic space ship and screen box combo that I described earlier are mounted to the ceiling with Sistrum technology. I have measured a 2 db increase of efficiency using these products..No down side, all the audiophile adjectives apply. Bwhite I would try a Sistrum Sp1 platform under your preamp with the apcd-2 discs between the downward facing points and the equipment shelf. You may also need the Sistrum Sp001 under the outboard power supply. These devices I feel are a major contributor of resolving power and major factor in the reproduction of the 21 ft soundstage I hear and see on several recordings played back on my system.They ain't no darn reflections neither!.. Tom |
I use Symposium Rollerblock Jrs underneath my SupraTek also. I picked up my grade 3 tungsten carbide balls from mcmaster carr. I forget the price but it was less that half of what Symposium wanted to charge. One of the benefits I noticed with the rollerblocks was an increase in variation of instrumental tones, the opposite of a coloration which would tend to make music more homogenized. |
Eccletique,
I had great success with the Symposium Rollerblocks but not with their Stands (tried the Ultra Symposium and Svelte) under any of my equipment. My best results came from Silent Running Audio custom made stands followed by Zoethecus Z-Slabs used in combination with the Stands.
A good friend also had excellent results by placing Roller Blocks under his TT (Linn) after hearing what they did in my system.
If any of you decide to experiment with the Symposium Roller blocks, make sure you get your hands on some grade 3 Tungsten Carbide Balls. They are a huge improvement over the old stock chromium or the grade 25 Tungsten Carbide Balls. "Double Stacking" works even better.
. |
Cello. While I do not use any of the symposium products,I second your recommendation on their effectiveness.They are terrific with tubed based gear. I have heard the effect first hand in a friends room isolating his magnificent sounding Klimo tube preamp and companion Kent mono amps. Their effect is his rig was not subtle. We have both been promoting the resonance control theory with tubed based equipment for many years. He has spent as much or more on his room than his equipment[read very expensive]and his rig is one of the finest if not "the" finest I have ever heard.The system is vinyl based only and his table is set up out of the room.Every piece of electronics is isolated with symposium pruducts.The noise floor is almost non existant.Music in his room is always magnificent experience.I am still dying to hear my Syrah in his system for comparison. |
Actually I live in Louisville Kentucky..I know most of the audio crowd in this state..So I was just reaching out...I may have questions concerning the structure of the chassis ..Thanks for the invites..Tom |
Bwhite,
I have had great success with Symposium Roller Blocks (w/Grade 3 Tungsten Carbide Balls)under both pieces of my Cortese.
Do you have any experience with Roller Blocks ? If not, you might want to give them a try. The have been amazing under my Electrocompaniet EMC-1UP as well. The best by far of everything else I have tried. |
Theaudiotweak - That's unfortunate, I'd love for you to have a Supratek. Perhaps you would be able to figure out the best way to set up the mechanical grounding for these.
Unfortunately I don't live anywhere near Indiana or I'd bring mine to you.
Inside a Supratek, the internal components are bolted to the top of the somewhat thin metal (copper) chassis. The wooden side panels are screwed to the chassis. The bottom plate is secured to the chassis with four screws.
When attempting to mechanically ground the Supratek via the bottom plate, I find it a little "top heavy" because the center of gravity seems to be 5 inches above the bottom plate. This seems to magnify vibrations.
Removing any feet and resting the wooden side panels on a surface sounds better but the impedance mismatch between the metal chassis and the wood side panels means that the energy is not drained as efficiently as it could be.
The trouble with this is that the bottom of a Suprateks' wooden side panels is NOT FLAT - so the unit will not be securely coupled to a surface.
Thoughts? |
Hi Tom, if you ever take a vacation down to Florida, we have a few family attractions that some folks clamor to see, you are always more than welcome. If you have a family, it is a great two birds with one stone trip. |
Cello...on the contrary I am a vinyl fan and use a Roksan Xerxes turntable with Koetsu Rosewood cartridge. If you have seen my initial post of 20/07/03 I live in Western Australia and I am a friend of Mick Maloney and have a lot of his wonderful creations - one of which is a prototype Phono Preamp (the type of thing that goes into a Cortese or Grange). This little phono device looks like 'Frankenstein' (being a prototype) but it's sonic virtues are beyond reproach! Like all of Mick's creations it has liquidity and detail in spades, the description of the phono section by the reviewer Mark Bucksath of Ultimate Audio on Mick's website is pretty spot on.
Asa: some good advice given there to Cello and others. I am also a big fan of Nelson Pass's little Aleph 3 power amp(I own one). This amp is my solid state reference (over Krells and Naim amps that I have owned), it just has that certain magic that weaves it's way into the music, revealing all the nuances, inflections and little things in the performance and on the recording.
Tom: I know it goes against the grain and practical thinking, and it's quite apparent that you have good knowledge and experience with all things Hi-Fi, but surely after reading the 700 or so posts on this thread ( from mostly satisfied Supratek users) the Syrah/Cortese/Grange preamps are really 'no brainers' and can be purchased with little risk. There is NO WAY highly experienced listeners like myself (doing the audio thing for 25 years) or the likes of Bryan White/ASA/Jazzdude/Linkster/Waltersalas/Ecclectique/Slowhand/Tubegroover etc...would ever endorse a product like Supratek if we did not like it and think that it was something very special.
Regards,
Steve M. |
Anyone in Indiana with a Supratek. I am in the market for a new pre-amp and would love to hear one these, within driving distance. |
Can't say that I have. I have toured the inside of a US jail though. What that would tell me about what a Turkish prison is like, I am not sure, since that is probably a unique experience. And for that matter, I am not sure that a seasoned prison guard in the US could tell me what a Turkish prison is like either.
Surely, I am serious. |
Jim2 I have never been to a Turkish prison nor to a Turkish bath..What about you? Tom |
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Asa,
Thanks for taking the time and interest to make your observations and suggestions - It's greatly appreciated.
I will try to catch up with the Teres crowd to get their ideas on an Arm and Cartridge. I was thinking of only getting the newest Graham 2.2. I have also asked Chris Brady for his ideas.
I love the BMI PC's in general and so, far everywhere I have put them in my system, they have bested everything else I have tried (quite a few by now). I am quite smitten with BMI’s power cords (specifically the Sharks and Whale Supreme). I am just blown away with the Whale Supreme and what they do for almost all aspects of the sound. Are there any cords you like more than another for either my Cortese or the upcoming Teres TT ?
I will check into the Hovland IC for the Teres. I have a friend that uses a Hydra and I will get him to drag it over to compare it to the Ensemble Isolink and BMI IPLC that I have and let you know what we hear.
I am not familiar with the Mook Puck. Is it like Symposium Roller blocks, Walker Valid point, etc (I assume when you say Shun you mean Shunyata) ? The Roller Blocks the grade 3 balls is the best I have found to date.
Thanks again Asa - I would also appreciate hearing any observations/ suggestions for the rest of the gang. |
Rcn, I understand all of your concerns. You are on a familiar glide path. Everyone likes detail at first, but later, there becomes a difference between natural detail and micro-nuance, its inta-relationship, actually, and surface accuracy to the exclusion of the former. My advice:
1. When a Supratek line stage comes on the market get it. $2200 used. It won't break. If you keep two years, you can still sell then for at least $1750, conservatively speaking. But you won't want to. Get $75 Discovery black PC cord used at the beginning + NOS tubes above @$200
2. Pass Aleph 3 solid state single ended amplifier, 30 watts but quite refined and powerful. Stay SS on amp for now; you will learn what you are hearing in be in better place to get amp later, and maybe you won't want to. Get the older compact unit shaped like a small square, not the direct mail unit that is a rectangle. Out of production, but will never break. $900-$1000 used and will never, ever go below $600.
3. Get some good, but not too expensive cryo-treated outlets. See threads here, particularly Albert Porter's comments, and others. $45/ ea. max.
4. Goertz speaker wire, copper. Flat, no hassles, can't rememeber model, ask around. @ $200-300 8ft pair.
5. BMI PC's. Ask around. CPCC good too for money, but too warm for you I would think initially. If you can scam a CPCC Top Gun PC for $275 get it for amp. Don't go nuts here. $150 ea. max.
6. Purist Collossus rev. B IC 1 meter RCA termination. $300 used.
7. Speakers, admittedly, very personal, but not Monitors...or Kliptch. Don't think of speakers in terms of "watts" as if that is better. If you want to look at specs look at sentitivity and efficiency. Frankly, I'd have to think about it more, but know, while I haven't heard any Tylers - they look to be a good value - I don't think its a good idea for someone where you are to go too undeground too fast. You might have trouble selling them later and that might deter you in other areas of the system. That doesn't mean Theil, mind you, maybe just not Lowther horns, et al. right out of the box. On Kliptch: I would venture that's a boyhood memory...a band of us weed-head guys had some in college too (hooked up, get this, guys, to the first Adcom amp, the GFA-1, a real raspy blow torch of pure attitude, when Adcom wasn't, er, Sonic Frontiers...Wonder that I still have any ears left! [no comments, please on that last opening!]). What type of music you listen to becomes important here also.
Some things to consider. Others comments invited. I know, audio missionary...
Cello: bery, bery nice, lots of listening to get there; big, rich powerful sound there. If I may make a suggestion...if you like the NBS spkr cable - who wouldn't?! - look at a Hydra conditioner sometime. Also, I won't say it will work everytime, but a Shun Mook puck in the right place is, surreally, well, surreal. Something at your level to experiment with here and there, not too much, but maybe just enough. On the Graham, I have one. Stay away from the older stuff; Graham's bias towards silver-sound too much in evidence on lower treble, and other things. Good dedicated phono IC important with Graham...about $350 for a Hovland, somthing to remember...Yes, set up easy on the Graham, but talk to other Teres owners here also, many knowledgeable guys here on that, ie besides advice, you might find someone else in your area willing to come over and help with set up. (Just to listen to the the Extremas would be worth it!).
Jim2: I've heard the Turks are developing a Mk XIX upgrade to the newly released Grange, all hush-hush and all, don't want to piss off "Mick" and all - you know those pesky Turks. Seems they are still smarting over the loss of those Jupiter intermediate rangers, and still looking for a toy to replace them with, and get their minds off of Cyprus, of course, and the German opposition party trying to stick an EC boot up their quasi-capitalist asses, and...what do you really think? Have you been there yet? I thought what you said was funny though :0) |
Tom, ya' ever been in a Turkish prison? |
Bwhite I have never had the pleasure of listening to a Supratek preamp. And...? Tom |
Thanks Tom!
I definitely understand what you're saying now. The Audiopoints Mechanical grounding devices (component vibration influence reduction)and definitely on a common buss ground shared on a common ACV outlet. A dedicated 20Amp circuit (single circuit run direct from the home breaker panel with dedicated circuit breaker) would definitely be a good recommendation. I have an isolation transformer that I had planned to use for a dedicated clean power circuit (I have an electronics background). Now I'm considering a commercial product with some level of uninterruptable power (UPS) to provide clean power (filtered ACV with transient and surge protection) in line with a dedicated circuit. Cleaner ACV and better equipment protection combined. I on the clean power trail now...:-)
Thanks again Tom, things are coming together! |
Stevem1960
Thanks for your comments on the Cabernet. My thoughts were that the new Cabernet/Grange might be significantly better than the older (Feb 2003) Cortese model that I have. I was wondering if the combination of moving one step up in model plus the upgrades that Mick made to Cabernet/Grange would make it a fairly significant upgrade. I feel that my system has become quite resolving, but that is an subjective opinion that is limited by my own experiences in hearing other systems.
I would be happy to hear your or anyone else's comments/suggestions on my system with ideas on best moves towards upgrading.
I am in the process of ordering a Teres 340 and so far I am thinking of starting with a Graham 2.2 arm. I am really new to vinyl and TT at this level (last experience was a Garrard back in the 70's) and have the idea that the Graham would be an excellent arm for the Teres and a bit easier to handle the set up and maintenance. I am still trying to figure out what the ideal cartridge might be. I realize that you have the Cabernet (line stage only) and therefore are probably not into vinyl, but I also would like to hear opinions from the experienced and articulate followers of this thread as well.
Here is my system as it sits now:
Electrocompaniet EMC 1UP CD player
Supratek Cortese Tubed pre-amp
Mark Levinson 23.5 200 watt amp
Sonus Faber Extrema Speakers
REL Stentor III Subwoofer
Ensemble Isolink Duo transformer (to EMC-1 & Cortese)
RS Audio RCA interconnects from EMC-1 to Cortese
Shunyata XLR Aries interconnects ortese to Amp
NBS Statement III Speaker Cables
2 - 20 AMP Romex dedicated power lines
5 - SHARK power cords
2 - WHALE SUPREME power cords
BMI Shark IPLC passive line conditioner
Silent Running VR series stands under Amp Isolink & EMC-1
Symposium Roller Blocks 2 sets placed under EMC-1
& Supratek pre-amp
Versalab Red Rollers RFI filters for interconnects
Versalab Wood Blocks RFI filters for power cords |
Tom - have you ever used a Supratek preamp? |
Rodger I am refering to one single method of mechanical grounding and thats via the Audiopoints products. As far as electrical grounding goes. I found dynamics and timing improved if all major components[amp, pre-amp, main source]all share a common ac outlet.. A quad in this instance 20amp circuit of high quality outlets, dedicated and with an isolated ground. I have 3 separate dedicated lines all wired exactly the same and by the same electrician. I suppose there is a slight difference in the 3,and that it can throw the timing off..One common outlet works the best with all the majors hooked to one.. Remember it all starts with the power supply. Tom |
Jazzdude: I currently use the Cabernet - you will NOT be disappointed when you get yours! Note however, that all of Mick's preamps are very good and it is only a matter of degree as to improvements between the Syrah-Cortese-Cabernet.
Having said this, the Cabernet/Grange have an edge in having a 'hear through' character that is better than the rest. The sound of the directly heated triode (DHT) 101D tube in the Cabernet/Grange is unique and different from the 6SN7 used in the Syrah/Cortese. The 101D has a pristine clean signature coupled with a punchy accurate bass...no coloration, no smearing to the overall soundstage with all of the players standing clear of each other, each doing their own thing on stage within their own defined space. I am finding that the sound of 101D in the Cabernet matches very well the sound of the 6C33-CB power tubes in the Supratek Merlot monobloc amplifiers that I use, both having that supremely clean and effortless presentation.
Cello: the Cortese is a magnificent preamp and it is not surprising that you are happy with it. It has a wonderful tonality that just makes the music sound 'beautiful and alive'. Keep in mind that that even a stock Cortese is better than most preamps out there so while it is tempting to go for the upgrade you still have one of the best even in it's current state! Also, is the rest of your system good enough to show the improvements? In general, I find that only a good Electrostatic Loudspeaker will show you all the detail, nuance and finesse that the Syrah/Cortese/Cabernet preamps possess compared to other mediocre preamplifiers.
Regards,
Steve M. |
Tom are you speaking of the brass Audiopoints that screw into the chasis like the threaded taper brass cones (support components like under the amp and so on. Or are you speaking electrically bonding a reference ground to the component chasis's. I saw some Audiopoints (Threaded vibration isolation brass cone devices that help mechancial transference of vibrations?
Thanks Tom,
Rodger |
Tom, excellent point made on the reference grounding the system components. Thank you most sincerely for the advice. I did not really consider the aspect of reference grounding all the components. It makes abolute sense. I guess I accepted mentally the components being chasis grounded through power cord grounds. However, higher frequency attenuations and comprimised reference grounds. I will pursue the Audiopoints. Do you sell such devices or do you have recommendations of where to go to acquire them?
Thank you very much Tom!
Rodger |
Rodger I would first recommend, as a point of reference, for ever more that you mechanically ground all your components... Do not mix and match different coupling devices they all have different ground potentials..And do not intermingle so-called isolation devices with coupling devices. You do that and you will have no reference at all. For a few hundred dollars you can direct couple all these pieces and they will be in step with each other as much as they will ever be. Intrinsic noise internally self generated as well as airborne micro-vibrations can be drained away quickly to ground. Resulting in a total system gain of 1.5 decibels netted by using Audiopoints thruout your system. Do not forget the speakers...Some of the brightness is distortion, and left in place in your components, will only be re-amplified and regurgitated over and over again.The reduction in noise and distortion will net you better and more tuneful bass, increases in soundstage and image focus, with greater overall system resolution. I am convinced these devices will allow you to truly hear and evalulate correctly what you do have, either right or wrong in your system. They will speed you on your journey to learn faster, and to store sonic memories and experiences, so you can become an honest to yourself educated listener of musical reproduction equipment. Tom |
Thanks Asa for your helpful and appreciated input. I was thinking that I my system was going to be on the brighter sound side and it will give me some reference of higher detail. I also wanted to experiment with the Subwoofer in the component mix. The Monitor Audio 3i speakers which I consider temporary for about 1 month or so will provide a medium of sound out only. My investment in the other components was significant for me and are all I want to invest (right now) into a total SS system. I did play the BP20 preamp through a Dennon POA 2400 SS Amp and I liked the clean blackness of the background. I think I would like to try a tube preamp with the Bryston 4B SST Amp at some near future point. I seriously considered tube equipment and I like good quality. $4K to $5K seems to be starting purchase point for good quality entry level tube equipment (for new preamp and amp)and I'm concerned I would want to upgrade (the tube Amp primarily) very shortly after. I prefer simple designs and few tube stages, the more tubes, more possible noise, complexity, troubleshooting and maintenance. Cary Audio would be my first choice to try for tube equipment. They are in Apex, NC and are about 12 ro 15 miles from me. I purchased the Bryston Preamps used so I could experiment and could, resell them if I pursued a tube preamp (which is strongly pulling at me). Because of brightness to be expected in my system I do not want to invest in good Monitor speakers until I learn and listen more. I understand that the tube based systems generally have a warmer, richer, and yet some detailed musical quality (lacking in powerful bass?). The balance of these characteristics I have not experienced for many years. I knew a person up in Toronto Canada that had a pair of Klipsch Corner Horns and 2-100 Watt Mono Amps (back in the 1983-84 time frame). The sound of that system was unbelievable and that was my tube reference. I distinctly remember clean and powerful. Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon never ever sounded so good to me as it did on that system :) Simple higher quality tube designs are more of interest to me. Regarding SS equipment, I looked at Krell and others new and used (new was out of the question for me to experiment with, and used prices were better of course however still high for used). I am cautious and aprehensive about older pure Class A or AB amp designs from a reliablity standpoint. The high heat dissipation, aging filter Capacitors and other components. My approach to the system I'm currently building is that it would be better to add desired levels of warmth ( combinations of tube preamp, cables and speakers) to taste to a brighter base system than to brighten up a very warm system. Then again, my friends...I have no good reference...yet. I look forward to sharing my experience in the future. Trial and error is a personal endeavor I suppose. Many of you probably relate to where I am at right now and already know better choices and can see possible mistakes ahead. All said and done, I'm having an adventure of learning and gaining more experience and I do really just want to listen and enjoy the music.
Any and all input is very welcomed.
Thank you,
Rodger |
I have the Sauvignon, the line-stage version of the Cortese. The Cabernet is the linestage version of the Grange. According to Mick the only tube complement difference between the two linestages is the 101D. There are at least 2 subs, the WE101D and WE101F. The WE101FA, WE216A might also work. These tubes are somewhat scarce but the good thing about them is that the WE datasheets state an average life of 40,000 hours. So one pair of NOS WE101D tubes could last over 4 years of 24/7 operation or the whole life of a preamp if you only leave it on a few hours a day. |
Rodger, thank you for listing your system. That was very forth right and I appreciate the sincere effort.
I think we are coming from different places. I am an all NOS tube, hard wired, SE triode, analog kinda guy. To me, Bryston SS through Nordost to metal dome Monitor spkrs couldn't be more of a bright combination. I'm not saying that any of these were "bad" choices, just ones that are place-specific "correct" IMHO; as in, what appears correct when you are at a certain place. With that said, I have recommended Bryston to people in certain situations, particularly when they want something to last forever, would like the 20 yr warranty idea for that reason, prefer dynamic headroom and detail as priorities and would never go tubes no matter how long they hung around the high end.
My intuition, if you don't mind me offering it, as a measure of your cognitive agility relative to your curiousity, is that you may want to move beyond where you are right now, its approach, at some point.
Cash is always a consideration, I know, at least it is for me, but others here may be able to give you some ideas to start off with. Or at least, give you some ideas on what you might try in the future. |
Jazzdude
I am sitting with a Cortese and absolutely love it. Based on Mick's improvements on the Cortese and Grange that he announced on this thread late last fall, I am wondering whether I should jump to the Grange or send my Cortese off for an upgrade.
Please do let us all know about the Cabernet when you get it up and broken in and how is stacks up.
Which Supratek pre-amp do you have now ? Do the Cortese and Cabernet share most of the same tubes in their complements? |
Hello Gang. Re: rolling regulators and rectifiers. Jazzdude's observations regarding soundstage stability and re: equipment employing vaccum tubed power supplies is rather astute and really very relevent here. Most of us with the supratek preamps know the pre is quite sensitive to the tubes employed in it.Ones choice of 6sn7's is usually chosen for it's voicing and its synergy with the partnered amps and speakers in a given room.Ones choice of rectifier and its marriage with the regulation tubes used will also add another spice to the recipe. A rather sublime artifact; that is not so easy to put your finger on right away because they do not directly affect tone or frequency. Soundstage stability is the primary reason why Mullard rectifiers have long been considered the rectifier of choice among tube amp enthusiast,guitar players,hobbyist and collectors alike.When employed in amplifiers using power tubes in the output,this soundstage stability artifact becomes a much larger issue and paramount with ones choice of rectifier. Ask yourself:Why do Mullard rectifiers command 5 to 10 times the price of the modern equivalents or other 5ar4's from the same vintage?[new or used] Collectors and speculators ya say? Think again! The soundstage stabilty thing that Jazzdude is talking about here is "THE" reason.Any competent guitar player with half an ear and a vintage tube amp will tell you the same and the mullard rectifier will last as long as the amp. ASA has really nailed down the sonic signature of the supratek and apptly penned it as being on the "clear side". NOW gang,just for fun....You want to hear "clearly" what Jazzdude is on about??? For those that are presently using a strong testing NOS mullard or bendex rectifier[90% minimum] Choose an appropriate live recording that you are very familiar with and would consider to having large dynamic swings and accompanied by a vocal.Pay particular attention to the precise placement or location and size of the vocalist on the stage. NOW pull your nos rectifier and replace it with the stock 5ar4/gz34,let it warm up a least 1/2 hour and replay it again. In my rig... the precise location of the vocalist will wander or slightly drift from his/or her precise place on the stage both laterally and vertically.The size does not change,but his/her location will drift. With the mullard in place,the vocalist is precicely focused in his/her own place on the stage.There is no drift,wander or shift. This artifact really becomes obvious in size and scale when the accompaning band gets cooking at the same time....drummers kicking,horns are honking,pianos a hammering in time with the vocal.Does everthing remain in scale and in the same place?does the drum kit get a little smaller or the cymbals wander slighty left or right of the drum kit? Or maybe the piano sounds wider on the bottom registers in relation to the upper keys when the band gets going. The piano size and scale [distortion thing] is one that is easily heard and can be very difficult to get right to begin with, let alone listening to rectifiers for chrissakes!However..Of all instrument,the piano is the easiest instrument to hear this drifting thing happen especially if accompanied by a human voice. Geez gang.....I think Im getting a little carried away here.Just try it people,let your ears be the judge!
|
Never listened to the Cabernet. From trading emails with Mick about the dif between the Sauvignon and Cabernet, and reading posts on AA regarding the DHT sound I believe that I have a good idea of how the Cabernet will sound. I think I will prefer the Cabernet over the Sauvignon in my system but I think that it will be a matter of preference and synergy as to which is better. I am expecting there to be some tradeoffs in sound between the two.
I will say that I believe that Mick has a certain kind of sound that he voices for. In other words Mick doesn't just engineer a good design and then just assemble top-shelf components. Mick has done a lot of experimenting with different designs, implementations, and components and he knows how each will affect the sound and which will get him to the sound he is looking for. Some of this is apparent from his webiste, the rest I gathered from trading emails with him and asking silly questions. So because I have confidence in how he voices his gear and because I already have one of his preamps, the decision to purchase another of his preamps was not a hard decision to make. |
Jazzdude, we all await your report on your Cabernet, in particular relative to the Sauvignon. BTW, have you ever had the opportunity to listen to a Grange/Cabernet prior to your order? |
Hello Tom,
I am somewhat concerned about the bright side of sound and your insight supports what I'm thinking. This will be the reference to play with. I'm thinking I may have to make some changes to warm the sound a little. Inter-connects and speaker cables have me a little concerned at this time (I'm already planing the speaker change out from the Monitor Audio 3i).
What are your thoughts on the inter-connects and the speaker cables Tom?
Thank you very much!
Rodger |
wow...and I thought that this thread was immense at it's 200th posting.
Well , my congratulations to slowhand for starting this one.
Gee, how many of us have come up with a brilliant idea for a thread and wound up with all of five responses....?
Not that there is much here, but it does keep on going...a bit like George W Bush's Presidency...... |
Your room will not suffer from darkness. Tom |
Hello Asa,
Thank you as well for your writings. I had responded with some thoughts, responses and references and lost all the information before I could send.
So anyway....I stated before I am void of "reference" speaking primarily of actual experience of various types of higher end audio equipment comparisons as described here on Audiogon.
I am presently building a somewhat neutral or reference system to me that I can learn and grow from. I carefully chose a Bryston 4B SST Pro Amp (new)(it was to be Bryston or Belles amp., I may try Belles 150 Reference later) and have purchased a couple used Bryston Preamps BP20 and BP25MC. I do want to revisit my record collection again and wanted a phono stage integrated in a preamp thus is the BP25MC with MM and MC select. Depending on the outcome, I'll keep the BP20 and purchase an external phono stage or use the BP25 with the internal phono stage (I still need a turntable).
I'll first try Nordost SPM 1M XLR Reference cables (used) between the Amp and preamp. My initial CD player source will be a Tascam CD-401 MKII (used)with Nordost Red Dawn RCA cables (new) between the CD and preamp. Speaker Cables will be low impedence Silverline 6 wire speaker cable. I will set the speaker cable up in a bi-wire configuration as such:
4-lengths of cable 8.5' in length, 2 cables per speaker. Each cable will have six strands of wire on one end connected to a single spade lug. The other end of the speaker cable will have 3 strands each to 2 banana plugs. One cable will supply (-) polarity and another cable will supply (+). I want some separation between polarities (not handled in the same cable, example, 3 wires (+) and 3 (-)).
This cable is advertised at $15.00/ft. (Shop around, you may find it less :-), Audiogon/Ebay)
My gut aches at the cost of the inter-connects. I still paid $664.00 for 4 inter-connects (2-bal. XLR, 2-RCA). I shopped carefully and know they cost much more. Shielded microphone cable may be all I really need for interconnects for the high impedence connections but I'll probably try those also at a later date for comparison.
I will use existing speakers, Monitor Audio 3i smaller monitors just to get started with sound and burn in the system. These are only 80 Watt speakers and the Amp is capable of 347 WPC. Must keep the power out low! I'm thinking of purchasing Linbrook Signature Series Monitors (200 Watt) from Ty at Tyler Acoustics (looking at used right now).
I also have a new SVS 20-39 PC Plus powered (active) 525Watt
subwoofer to use with this system. My listening room is small at 12' x 13' so I'll just use good quality Monitor speakers and compliment with the single subwoofer (at this time :).
OK Asa and other Audiophiles, please review my "Reference in the making and please make comments and suggestions. I'm just waiting for all the cables to come in now. All items are purchased and all but cables are in (no turntable).
Thanks to all,
Rodger |
Just got THE email from Mick. He is building my cabernet right now. It'll take about a week to finish building it and then he runs it in for awhile before he ships. I hope to take delivery within a month. |
Rcn, thank you for your response. Yes, all is different - quantum energy arises into different forms. But, are you really saying that because there is a range to human objective hearing (the mechanism of the ear) that that physical means is wholly determitive upon the mind's perception therefrom? In other words, while I know that scientific materialists always want the mechanism to be ALL (and tend towards, um, symptomatically, Bryston pre's...), does the ear between you and me make all that much difference, assuming that one of us is not deaf?
I mean, rather, isn't it even more logical that with a sufficient physical mechanism it is the mind - the will of the mind to go deeper, or its lack - that would be a more determitive factor in what is heard/perceived? You never touched the concept of the subjective, other than implying that all minds are equal because all mechanisms are equal... I wonder why?
Normally endowed ears, the physical, hear within a range that is sufficient for that mind to get what it needs to to then make a choice: to choose to go deeper or not to. Those that believe in matter as primary to mind - perceived determines perceiver - tend to be attached to stereos that produce a soundfield where singers are bounded and a sterile space bounds these sound-objects further, ie they are attached to a near visual experience of sound as objects, just like the matter-objects that they believe determine all things. Scientific materialists, whether they are self-reflective enough to know they are or not, are determitevely drawn to the material; to the material explanation, to the material experience, to the material concept, all to the exclusion of that which perceives the material. They are attached to things, to our power over things, to the idea that that power is all that there is...and on audiogon, tend to like Bryston pre's and stop there (because, I mean, scientifically speaking, where else could there possibly be to go, its all relative between ears so what could be more?). Hmmmm.
I know a very famous reviewer who is getting on in years and has lost some hearing acuity, in a physical sense, to the higher frequencies, but his mind - his will to hear deeper, to allow his active, object-seeking cognition to fade in its desire to be primary and for his mind to become a receptive vessel for a perception of still deeper beauty - still "hears" to a far greater range than most others. In other words, experience is, of course, in relation to the physical, but the physical is not wholly determined upon that arising quantum matrix.
Again, what about the mind? Are they equal in their will to know, both objectively/actively or receptively, from one to the other? Does this make a difference?
A man once said, "Argue for you limitations, and sure enough they are yours."
Its a cause/effect dynamic of consciousness development that science hasn't found yet...
Hey, though, I'll have to scrounge up some of those GEC KT66's... |
Recently I replaced the Italian Sicte6sn7s on Syrah with CBS5692s red base. My Apogee Stages' high frequency get bright ,hot and tend to be noisy. It made me very fidgeted. After I return to Sicte. The music comes back. The Apogees sound liquid,transparent and relax. The backgrund became quiet. I can't understand the differeces made by Sicte and CBS. Is anything wrong? My Syrah was produced in 2001. |
