It’s not like religion at all. The naysayers here don’t have any real arguments. They only call names. That’s the level of their argument. They whinny and bray. At least in religion there are two sides, somewhat on a level playing field, each with coherent arguments. Unlike in this discussion.
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Cerberus, Your observation is somewhat correct, only difference being that something like this is easily, or at least somewhat easily demonstrable. I sincerely doubt that any of the folks that claim to hear a difference between a " broken - in" and a non "broken - in " outlet would be able to tell any difference on two "otherwise" identical outlets let alone any other outlet that provide a good solid contact, should it be put to a test. Its however useless to debate, they want to hear a difference, so they do. Good Listening Peter |
Wow, they’re coming in droves now. Who left the floodgates open? So, let’s briefly summarize the naysayers’ position. 1. No one can hear the difference even if there is one. 2. Break-in disobeys the laws of physics. Just like directionality. 3. The argument surrounding break-in is like religion. One assumes that is supposed to be an actual argument against break-in being real. I guess that means God is not real either. 4. It’s all psychological. Expectation bias, placebo effect, self-fulfilling prophecy. Take your pick. 5. Nobody can keep track of the sound of his system for 200 hours or 400 hours or whatever because there are too many variables. So nobody can PROVE break-in is real. The next thing you know one of these guys will try to hit one out of the park by declaring controlled blind tests would easily show break-in is not real and must be psychological. |
@pbnaudio: Peter: I spent the better part of 18 months experimenting with receptacles about 15 years ago. I found it interesting and it was not particularly costly with decent quality stock receptacles from the better manufacturers. You have some decent equipment and I would expect a decent ear as well. Here's a simple suggestion for you and the best way for you to get to the bottom of this issue: buy 3 Pass & Seymour 5262's and 3 Hubbell HBL 5262's (make sure they are the HBL 5262's and not CR 5262's or other non HBL prefix Hubbells-they are very different). Total cost to you will be about $75-$80 for those 6 receptacles. I suggest purchasing 3 of each because (I know this from experimenting and doing this) a) the effects are cumulative b) very few systems run off 1 receptacle c) the sonic character of the receptacle is much more readily discernible when it is not in a "mix and match" situation. Logical, actually when you think about it scientifically, and clearly audible when you do it and approach it that way. If you need to buy an extra couple of receptacles to run the whole system off the same receptacle, that is certainly the way to go, but running most of the system off 3 receptacles should give you a very decent baseline. Leave the 3 P&S receptacles in for a month or two and then switch them out and replace them with the HBL's. Notwithstanding the effects of burn-in, if you don't hear significant differences with your system between the Levitons you are currently using and the Pass & Seymours & HBL's, I will buy the 6 receptacles from you including shipping and your experiment will have cost you nothing. If you do hear differences, you can thank me and go down the receptacle rabbit hole. You should, of course, report your findings here. Otherwise, it's just as easy for me to say you don't want to believe that it is possible as it is for you to say I want to hear a difference and therefore I do. Right now, the difference is that I've done it and you haven't. I'll leave it to others to ascertain as to how much faith one should put in one "opinion" vs. the other. |
An outlet is just a connection. A means of coupling a device to your home electric grid. It is a plastic housing with copper slip grips that squeeze the prongs from the dead front plug you push in it. That is it. The better quality ones such as "hospital grade" are sturdier and better built than the ordinary ones. Again that is it. All you need to make sure of is that they are good quality, the correct amperage, copper and tight. Please explain to me what burning in does to this very simple device. |
+1 salectric funny to see this kind of question pop up on a regular interval, similar as those questioning a if cables can make a difference. My experience after 8+ years of tweaking with isolation/resonance control, power and cables: absolutely they all make a difference and, yes, burn in is needed. Furutech has great products, esp their wall sockets are great value/money. I like their rhodium versions GTX-D(R) as it works best in my tube based system. See my main system: power+resonance control+cables make up at least a quarter of the budget and it is worth it for me. @pbnaudio: I would certainly add some Furutech GTX-D(r) or the gold version if you like a smoother sound to the mix, maybe 3 Furutech and 3 Pass & Seymour as hdm suggested. All way better than Hubbel which is better than stock. |
hdm and Hudson, As mentioned in a post above I did start a test per say of AC outlets some years ago, just never finished it, all missing is a program for the Allen Bradley PICO controller PLC. The idea is that a complete system will be hardwired to this jig which features 8 different outlets including the ones you mention a few others and a elcheapo Homedepot one at $0.54 The inlet to the Jig will be hardwired directly to our electrical panel. It is impossible to conduct a real test of the difference in sound quality an outlet makes, if any, plugging in un plugging and restarting the system. So if theres a Wizard out there that wants to make the program for the PICO - which will engage any of the outlets via remote control before it disengage the prior one selected - this way the system can be powered consistently without any interruption - so if there is a difference in SQ this should be beyond obvious to any listener. I will post a systems page of the Jig which is all wired up ready to go only thing missing is the program - I used to program PLCs many moons ago just do not have the time to relearn it. Good Listening Peter |
Jazzonthehudson, Like you I have a GTX-D (R). Mine is the NCF version with the aluminum housing and the cover plate. That's the only Furutech outlet I have tried so I can't comment on how this differs from the non-NCF version or how the outlet sounds without the housing and optional cover plate. However, the combination certainly sounds nice in my system which like yours uses tube electronics. I only have one of these outlets though. Do you have more than one in your setup? The reason I am asking is I am wondering whether adding extras would be a good thing or perhaps cause too much of a Furutech sound. My one complaint with the GTX combo is that the soundstage perspective is more recessed and distant than I like. I wouldn't want to make it even more distant with a second or third GTX. Any comments? (I realize that people who already "know" that outlets can't make any difference in sound quality will find these comments absurd. So be it.) |
pbnaudio As mentioned in a post above I did start a test per say of AC outlets some years ago, just never finished it, all missing is a program for the Allen Bradley PICO controller PLC. The idea is that a complete system will be hardwired to this jig which features 8 different outlets including the ones you mention a few others and a elcheapo Homedepot one at $0.54 The inlet to the Jig will be hardwired directly to our electrical panel. Whoa! Hey, I remember that outlet test. First it was, "things are a little hectic so the test will be next week." Then, it was like, "Uh, I’m still gathering outlets for the test." All very apologetic like. How time flies, seems like yesterday. 😀 PS It's really not difficult. You listen to them. It's not rocket science. |
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6567 Heres the Jig again, lets see ion we can get this done - and Geoff if your as smart as you proclaim to be write the program for the PLC :-) Good Listening Peter |
"PS It's really not difficult. You listen to them. It's not rocket science." Bingo. Preferably the same receptacle running the whole system as I mentioned. Long term listening. Quick switching back and forth using single receptacles interacting with others is, generally speaking a waste of time. It is time consuming, but it needs not be costly (to establish that there are indeed sonic differences) and, as you say Geoff, it is not rocket science. |
Geoff, Because this would actually be a controlled test and if there is any repeatability this will clearly manifest it self. If the claim is to have any credibility then repeatability is a must. I know that something structured and with logic is not something you normally subscribe to - take your Teleportation tweak, Clever little clock, Aquarium Rocks in small plastic bags etc. you catch y drift I’m sure. Think of it this way - one complete system connected to just one outlet that can be immediately replaced with another outlet without powering down the system, if any difference is produced by the outlet it will be obvious to anyone listening. Good Listening Peter PS I've put a description of the wiring of the jig on the systems page describing the remote and the I/O on the Pico PLC |
pbnaudio Geoff, Because this would actually be a controlled test and if there is any repeatability this will clearly manifest it self. If the claim is to have any credibility then repeatability is a must. I know that something structured and with logic is not something you normally subscribe to - take your Teleportation tweak, Clever little clock, Aquarium Rocks in small plastic bags etc. you catch y drift I’m sure. Think of it this way - one complete system connected to just one outlet that can be immediately replaced with another outlet without powering down the system, if any difference is produced by the outlet it will be obvious to anyone listening. Gee whiz, Peter, you make it sound like you actually did the test. But you failed to deliver after many promises. That’s the only thing that’s obvious. Who cares about all your theories and obvious angst? You have no cred on the street. |
Geoff, Have absolutely no "angst" as you describe it, lets say the test reveals that there is ZERO difference on outlets - and all your cooky "theories" about directionally of fuses etc are dismissed. So why don't you write the program and actually try to contribute something real other that the usual babble you come up with. Good Listening Peter |
Try spending $3.00 for a "Spark Plug File" at home depot. Run the file over the plug flange faces to make sure they are flat for optimal contact with your $200 receptical. I've seen huge ridges on plug flanges from stamping operation. @geoffkait And @wylmars : I'm an Assembly language lover as well. Started my Programming career with Illinois Bell Telephone two weeks after ATT divestiture in January, 1984 (CRIS System). My biggest accomplishments: 1.Tweaked some code which saved 5 hours (clock time) from a billing cycle program. 2. Found an error on an IBM yellow card. |
Peter (pbnaudio) You may remember that I contacted you when you were embarking on that project many summers ago so I am aware of what you were trying to achieve. A switch is indeed the solution. I have, like hdm, deployed the ancient methodology of plugging and replugging cables: for my test in my 2nd system -which allowed easier access- I used two PI Audio Ueberbuss (as you may know, it uses a passive LC filter in a wooden/resonance free housing) and changed the (outlet) sockets. Tested were Oyaide SWO-XX. Oyaide R1, Synergistic Research Teslaplex / later the SE version, cruzeFIRST Audio Maestro Outlet and Furutech GTX-D Rhodium) . It wasnt easy to remember the nuances as my second system (NAD gear) wasnt up to par with my main rig but I found the Furutech GTX-D(R) the best in my system as it offers both resolution and smoothness. As I have vintage (Duntech/Dunlavy) speakers throughout my house, the GTX-D (R) seems to be the best fit. Runners up were the Oyaide R1 and Maestro (very neutral but not "fast enough" for my taste). Teslaplex SE has lots of speed but is not balanced (too much emphasis on the highs, great for video though). These were my findings after long hours of listening over a protracted period of time. A few months later I started experimenting with fuses which make a huge difference and are simple to implement if the fuse holder is accessible mostly at the back. I am concluding the test on my NAD M25 in which all stock fuses (incl those in the power section) are replaced by third party ones. salelectric as you know, it is the matching of components that matter. I am careful not to use more Furutech in power cords. I have multiple GTX-D(R) in each of my three systems. The NCF has great reviews but I don’t have experience with them yet. As mentioned above, fuses impart a big signature. Again, it is trial and error. IME I find Audio Horizon’s Platinum Reference better than the SR Black, which is already very, very good. Furutech has great fuses as "entry level" ones but they wouldn’t combine well with fast systems. As you can see from my other comments, I tried full looms (Audience, HiDiamond, High Fidelity Cables, just to name the last iterations) but never settled long on one brand. Through ever-tweaking - not just power but room correction and isolation/resonance control I am pretty close to "there". Feel free to contact me directly as I do not peruse the forum on a regular basis. |
jazzonthehudson As mentioned above, fuses impart a big signature. Again, it is trial and error. IME I find Audio Horizon’s Platinum Reference better than the SR Black, which is already very, very good. Furutech has great fuses as "entry level" ones but they wouldn’t combine well with fast systems. As you can see from my other comments, I tried full looms (Audience, HiDiamond, High Fidelity Cables, just to name the last iterations) but never settled long on one brand. Through ever-tweaking - not just power but room correction and isolation/resonance control I am pretty close to "there"." Damage control! Damage control! That's the second aftermarket fuse that's been judged better than the SR Black fuse, the other being the Audio Magic Beeswax. Can this be happening?! "I am pretty close to "there." That begs the question, how do you know when you are actually "there"? |
nkonor - Yes, the Furutech GTX-D (R) AC outlets were professionally ($$$) installed yesterday. indeed, I have AC power to my system ... that's a start! I had no idea my simple question would result in 1879 (and counting) views and 73 posts. You warned me. Imagine what will happen if I decide the Furutech outlets aren't doing the job ... and I fire them! I must say I've had an interesting time reading everyone's posts and thank everyone for their comments. Now, I will attempt some critical listening. But now I wonder if the power cord will be a significant factor affecting AC transmission ... ??? |
And the reason I ask about the power cords is that ARC (my amp/pre-amp) clearly states in the owner's manual that substituting cords is a no-no; invalidates warranty T&Cs. Why, I wonder? It begs the question regarding all cable connections to their equipment. I suppose power to the device with wire that is unsafe/harmful might be their reasoning. In any case, I would like to try a Nordost 20 amp PC. I've heard the ARC REF 75SE/5SE PCs are made by Cardas. Does anyone know the facts? |
wylmars And the reason I ask about the power cords is that ARC (my amp/pre-amp) clearly states in the owner’s manual that substituting cords is a no-no; invalidates warranty T&Cs ...If by ARC you are referring to Audio Research Corp., the manuals state no such thing. In fact, ARC posts its warranty terms right on its website, so I’m not sure why you fabricated this claim. http://www.audioresearch.com/en-us/company/warranty-statement |
Clarification (pg. 6, owner's manual): "it is important that the Reference 75 be connected via ITS SUPPLIED 20 amp IEC 12-gauge power receptacle". Continuing on with ARC US Warranty T&Cs, "the warranty is void and inapplicable if the product has been used or handled other than in accordance with the instructions in the owner's manual" (see pg 6 owner's manual excerpt, above)". My comment is not a fabricated claim, but a literal interpretation of the ARC owner's manual and warranty terms. |
@wylmars but surely you read the next page of the manual that states there's no problem using alternative power cords to quote p7 Caution should be taken before using custom after- market power cords: they must be at least 12-gauge and have a standard grounding plug properly installed. These power cords are to be used with caution, at the sole risk of the owner. |
Oh my, I failed to see that. Thank you, folkfreak. I would really like to try an alternative power cord just to compare. But the "sole risk of the owner" does have a chilling implication. I wonder if "sole risk of the owner" can be interpreted as 'if something goes awry in the amp and is determined to be caused by a non-ARC PC' that the warranty is void? I'm just wanting to be careful ... these toys are expensive. I wouldn't want to void any warranty I may have with ARC. That said, I've used ARC equipment for more than a quarter century without a problem. |
Don’t worry. I and probably most other ARC owner on this forum have been using after market power cables for years and have no issues with warranty work. In fact most dealers demo these amps with after market cables. The dealer I bought from, Optimal Enchantment, always demos with AudioQuest for example The cautionary language is just to avoid issues if you for example slap a 20A IEC on a 2 conductor lamp cord and then burn your house down! and btw the warning on page 6 of the manual was more related to the second half of the sentence which you did not quote - the bit warning to always use a dedicated outlet and not a convenience or extension |
I did see that warning. ARC seems to want the owner to connect their AMPs directly to the AC, and not use any power conditioner or regenerator. Is that due to the power requirements of their AMPs? I purchased a PS Audio P10 to protect my equipment from surges, brown-outs, sudden electrical malfunctions. I also put a full-house surge protection unit that shuts down the panel to my home. In any case, are there specific attributes I should look for (other than 12 awg) in a power cord for a REF 75SE? |
Many find that power amps sound best plugged directly into the wall. In particular a regenerator such as your PS Audio is a pretty wasteful way to power a class A amp and may restrict dynamics. Personally i I get good results with the Synergistic PowerCell 12UEF but to start with go direct to the wall and on a circuit that's not shared with any of your other components |
folkfreak - I wish I had known that BEFORE I bought the PS Audio. I spoke to a lot of people before I purchased P10 who whole-heartedly support the P10 ... hmm! I had the contractor install a dedicated (i.e., there is nothing on the circuit but my stereo equipment) 20 amp circuit, with its own circuit breaker. I will do as you suggest; plug directly into the wall ... into the new Furutech GTX-D (R) outlets that started this whole forum entry. So, I will ask you, folkfreak, does the P10 'wastefulness' also apply to the REF 5SE and Accuphase equipment? Have I been restricting dynamics across the board? |
wylmars 0 ... I wish I had known that BEFORE I bought the PS Audio. I spoke to a lot of people before I purchased P10 who whole-heartedly support the P10 ... hmm! ...does the P10 'wastefulness' also apply to the REF 5SE and Accuphase equipment? Have I been restricting dynamics across the board? I wouldn't dismiss your PS Audio power regenerator quite so quickly. There are many variables when it comes to AC power. In my system - with multiple dedicated 20A lines - nothing is plugged directly into the wall. That includes the ARC Ref5SE and everything else, including big tube and SS power amplifiers. Yes, I've tried plugging things into the wall directly. Yechhh. And nobody who has ever heard my system has ever thought that it lacked dynamics. Just the opposite! |
@wylmars Firstly I trust by now you've learned to tale any advice you get on the internet with a pinch of salt 😏 and as @cleeds suggests you should try it for yourself, both into the P10 and into the wall. My cavil with PS Audio regenerators is that basically they are power amps outputting clean 110V -- agreed the newer ones such as your P10 are efficient (rated 85% at peak continuous load of 1200W) but they are throwing away 15% or more energy than you need. Early ones like the original P300 (I at one point owned three) were <50% efficient and ran hot as hell. However while the P10 is rated with enough power to drive your Ref 75 (peak load 500W) the consensus (and again you have to listen and see if you agree) is that Power amps in particular prefer a non current limited (i.e. more passive than active) power conditioning regimen, and in many cases sound best run straight from the wall. Sources (your Ref 5SE and Accuphase kit) will benefit most from the clean power the P10 provides So to conclude -- try it all ways and see what sounds best to you -- that's all that matters |
nkonor - but the 'shoot out' has yet to be conducted? I had no idea there was so much interest in AC outlets. It seems that there's been a great deal of effort into preparing for this 'shoot out', and an extraordinary amount of interest. geoffkait- Perhaps you could write a BAL app to conduct the 'shoot out'? |
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The nature of memory, despite the best efforts of scientists, remains an elusive and capricious entity. It would be difficult to follow the neurological progression which leads one to subjective judgment. I’ve been ill, hospitalized, which has broken the continuity in my listening for a qualitative assessment of the Furutech AC outlets. Perhaps that is a good thing, obviating anticipatory expectations. I will not attribute some higher level of aural performance to the Furutech outlets; that would necessitate my concluding some mystical transcendence resulted in changes in the ‘sound’ of my equipment. But I will say that there is a difference in other attributes that make up my listening experience. There is an elevated preciseness/sharpness in what I would characterize as ‘the attack’ of notes - more energy, thrust, silence. And therein is what I believe is the improvement … the energy delivered to the components that make up my system reacting to its life-blood, electricity. Music is a non-conceptual language, beyond the range of men’s understanding. Some try, others claim to know what a piece of music means or what it signifies. Men only have poetic ideas of what a composer intended, no more. Likewise, I have only an idea of what ‘changed’ with the installation of the Furutech AC outlets; but change it did. Perhaps the electrical signal is purer causing the spaces between notes to be more silent, the vocalist’s breathe livelier, or the striking of the drumhead sharper. What I have concluded is an improvement in a manner independent of the components themselves, or that’s what the neurological progression leads to my subjective judgment … all the rest is silence. |
