Sound Quality of red book CDs vs.streaming
I agree about Tidal. I find myself listening to it most of the time. I am blessed that I can't tell the difference between the same digital file presented to my DAC by different digital sources. cycles2: your comments regarding artists is smack on. For years we have been bullied by record companies feeding us whatever they can sell profitably, and hyping up photogenic pop stars and producing massively compressed recordings seems to be the best way they can maximize their profit. The democratization of quality recording and digital distribution has changed the game. Music is supposed to be fun and participatory, not the sole domain of record companies and over-payed pop stars trying to make money. |
@rvpiano Are you serious about what will artists do if CDs go away? Digital recording and streaming have opened the door for hundreds of artists that can't afford the cost and bureaucracy of getting their songs onto CD or vinyl. Many artists are discovered via a streaming service such as Tidal or other music channels from digital files they put together in their home studios for a fraction of what it cost 10 years ago. I haven't purchased a CD ever since I got a decent network streamer (sorry, BlueSound Node 2's are not decent streamers), got rid of any extra equipment in the signal path such as a computer that introduces jitter and other unwanted sonic artifacts and purchased a Tidal HiFi subscription (the standard $10/month won't do as these music files are compressed). I have an Ayre CD transport and none of my HiFi friends can tell the difference between Redbook CDs on the Ayre of via Tidal HiFi. You also get the benefit of listening to Tidal remotely via your phone and anywhere you have a BlueTooth audio connection such as your car. Streaming is truly one of the biggest values we audiophiles have going for us. |
If the quality of the sound we hear was only based on which gear measured the best, we would all have Benchmark components in our systems. Every other manufacturer would close shop, certainly the ones with tube electronics. There's a lot more than just measurements that creates the emotional engagement that music brings to our lives. |
@audioengr You don’t give specs as to what dBFS or psec your product is; you’ve stated 7psec before, so I’ll assume that, the ChromeCast Audio has less than 4psec (better than -275dBFS / 45Bit). If your product is better, I’ll retract my statement. Again though, even if your re-clocker was 0psec, the differences are not even close to audible, so spending $700 one one would be waste of money in this instance. Even the $100 Khadas Tone board DAC has a J-test result of -135dBFS, which allows for more dynamic range than we can hear in a room (say 140dB max and a room noise floor of 30dB, so 110dB; and that 140dB is generous, most music is mastered to 105dB, with some orchestral/classical getting to 120dB). A ChromeCast Audio hooked up to a “cheap” Topping D50 DAC, using normal cables, produced a J-test of better than -130dBFS, also better than our hearing in a room. |
If using Roon or Android Hi-Fi Cast (most any app/software except Google’s own), the jitter in the ChromeCast Audio is better than -275dBFS (better than 45Bit). @audioengr’s re-clocker will actually introduce more jitter in this case. It’s only if you Cast with YouTube or your Chrome Browser will the re-clocker actually reduce the jitter; however, any good DAC will be audibly the same for cheaper, $700 for a re-clocker is silly when a $250 SMSL SU-8 DAC has jitter below -120dBFS, what is considered out hearing range (some say 140dB), and accounting for room noise, it’s more than enough. |
In the chain below, Tidal 16/44 sounds better than Redbook, MQA sounds much better (afraid I might become an MQA junkie), and I can't hear a difference between FLAC and Tidal streaming. I have to go back and try WAV.
My disc spinning has nearly stopped as a result.
Also intend to try better ethernet cable, based on what I've read here on the 'Gon, currently have cheapo, want to try Supra. For what it's worth, I think PS Audio believes transmission via ethernet to be superior to toslink, upc, can't remember why tho. Oppo 105D via AQ toslink or Tidal/Roon from modem via ethernet -> PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC with Bridge II. |
For a while I was doing Room/Tidal, but I found no motivation to spend time burning CDs. I had some that I had burned previously, and Roon picked them up just fine, but I found myself just going straight to Tidal 90 percent of the time. So now I’m CDs, records, and Tidal. As far as quality goes, I’m just fine with 16/44.1. I can hear no perceptible difference between the same files played from different media (same file sent to the same DAC). Your signal path, and the components you use, will of course effect sound quality. I’m sure that some of you have the knowledge, experience, and the sufficient hearing ability to discern audible differences caused by jitter, oversampling, hi-res, etc. I certainly can. But I am perfectly satisfied with a well recorded and mastered 16/44.1 file. |
I also used minimserver and upnp for my prior music servers and Roon is head over heals better than either. I still use an Auralic Mini for a music server in my living room setup. When I use Auralic’s DS Lightning software, I have to use minimserver for my ripped/purchased music off my server. Once I could use Roon on the Auralic Mini, I stopped using minimserver with no looking back. |
For my ears, Roon / Tidal via my Oppo 203 is same or better than my red book cd's. I have not touched a red book cd in over a year after getting this set up going unless its something really rare. The ability to quickly explore artists and new music, read about the albums and artists, along with what I perceive to be same or better quality is a good solution for me. Even better digital equipment in the future will only yield even more favorable results to my ears. |
The quality of the transport has a definite bearing on the ultimate sound produced when we’re comparing.Definitely. I have used an ARC, NAD, Onkyo, and PS Audio. Each had a different presentation and sonic signature. A major factor contributing to their sound quality is how well jitter is controlled before data is output to the DAC. The PSA PWT is a memory player and has an advantage over a standard CDP digital output since it re-reads the disc to correct errors and then loads it into memory. So it is playing back a low jitter data stream from a buffer rather than playback from a disc. I added the iFi iPurifier to see if I could do even better with my digital chain. With the LPS, SQ is noticeably improved. I must add that the digital cable is an important part of the chain. |
I looked at many high quality LPS’s which were in the $400+ range. I didn’t want to spend that much, so I took to the archives. Good user reviews for Swagman Labs (based in Hong Kong). I purchased the SIGNATURE EDITION which has all upgraded parts and a 50VA toroidal transformer. Price was $280 and it is built for digital devices. I liked the fast and detailed info from Swagman when contacted before my purchase. |
rvpiano, LPS stands for linear power supply. The idea is they can be an upgrade from the standard, cheap switching power supplies normally included with many devices from the factory. Good thread. I'd like to upgrade my streaming equipment at some point but don't want to spend a fortune on pieces which might not offer much bang for the buck. Best of luck! |
Well, I got and ((after much difficulty) I installed a reclocker. Defitinely much improved sound from before! A preliminary comparison shows the transport/DAC and streaming/DAC sound very close, with maybe a slight advantage to the transport. I have a lot more listening to do before I have an informed opinion. Question: Does a reclocker have to “break in” like everything else? |
In my experience good quality CD transport sounds better then good media server see thread: "Aurender N10 and audiophile network devices ". But Aurender when streaming from Tidal sounds excellent. I do not have explanation why. It is just what me and my audio-buddies are hearing on our sessions. IMHO even best digital is inferior to similarly priced turntable which is inferior to similarly priced R2R. Which is a pity because of inconvenience. |
I use streaming for background music with the same DAC used for the CD player (my DAC has 2 sp/dif inputs), and CDs for serious listening. Redbook CDs have been getting some props lately from interesting people like Alon Wolf among others. A good spinner with a good DAC can sound great, and I think the rumors of a "CD Revival" fad are pretty funny. |
Brayeagle, The good news is most streaming services I looked at amazingly carry multi performances of the same work. If you’re into classical, there’s one that’s far above the rest: IDAGIO. It has numerous search engines to find anything you want, and is devoted solely to classical. Only $10 a month! Another good one is Qubuz, but it’s not just for classical and it’s more expensive. |
@kalali, Another reclocker is the iFi SPDIF iPurifier which I own. “ Using a LPS instead of the stock wall-wart will improve the SQ of the reclocker. I added one and have experienced a much wider soundstage, improved dynamics and inner detail. Very impressed with the improvement in sonics of my system. |
I stream Tidal via an Antipodes server/streamer which is full CDs ripped in FLAC, by the Antipodes. There is no obvious difference, to me, between these FLAC files and Tidal. However, CDs ripped by the Antipodes DO sound better than previously recorded FLAC files ripped in and transferred from my PC. Due, I would imagine, to better hardware and programming in the Antipodes. I use a Denafrips Pontus DAC. |
I have an ancillary question. Currently, I'm listening to my somewhat extensive of Redbook classical and organ CDs via a top quality CD spinner - - and I've been very satisfied with the result. However; I might have to add a streaming capability to satisfy other family members. Can the streaming entities provide the specific performance of what I want to hear? Example: There are over 40 differing performances of the Verdi Requiem. Can I ask for a specific performance, or am I stuck with what they might have on hand in the way of the Requiem? I wouldn't want to ask for the Reiner or Barenboim, and be given one of Giulini's instead. Seriously, just asking about classical and organ music choices with streaming. TIA |
It isn't for me. I compared Roon to DLNA/UPnP on the same hardware platform and DLNA sounded better. It was the Roon software compared to Linn Kinsky/Minimserver. This is why I don't offer a Roon-Ready product. I offer a better sounding DLNA product. When they can make a better sounding playback software, I will consider Roon. You can still stream pretty much anything using DLNA. |
See my white-paper: https://positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm Steve N. Empirical Audio |
“Another reclocker is the iFi SPDIF iPurifier which I own. “ Ditto. It actually makes the Chromecast Audio sound pretty darn close to Node2 using the same (non-MQA) outboard DAC and using the optical TOSLINK connectivity. The improvement using it with the Node2 is not as significant but still worth it. By the way, I’m using the optical cable Steve had recommended from btpa.com. Very reasonably priced and well made. |
After investigating, I can see that Ethernet/Roon may well be the wave of the near future for audiophiles. But, in general, I’m wondering. If CDs become obsolete, what will happen to the structure and incentive for performers to record. Where is the profit motive for them if streaming, at $10-$20 per month for consumers, is their only source of revenue? This is the cart leading the horse. Without recordings being created, where will the music come from? If current trends continue, Streaming Subscription prices are inevitably going to rise precipitously to much, much higher rates in order to support the creators. |
Expensive CD player vs. the cheapest streaming setup you can implement and you are wondering why your cd sounds better? Your current setup couldn’t support the best hires/DSD/MQA streaming services that are available. Also, when was the best sounding sacd inferior to cd redbook? Sure there were some sacd recordings that were just cd’s reripped but most were superior. IMO, trying to get your chromecast audio/toslink up to a high standard for streaming is like putting lipstick on a pig. Get rid of USB, reclockers for your usb, and toslink, go with straight Ethernet with a fiber internet connection, get tidal hifi with MQA and you will be selling your CD player. Rip all of your cd’s to a server and use Roon for your GUI interface and you will be wondering why you waited so long to do this. |
I can't say if WAV sounds better than FLAC but I did rip all my CD's to WAV since HHD storage is so cheap and I can't tell the difference between streaming the WAV from playing the CD on my CDP both going through the same DAC. TO be honest streaming Tidal in CD or MQA sounds as good as the CDP if not better. Non of this has been tested by a blind comparison doubt I could tell any difference. Perhaps my gear isn't as good as most here nor my ears. |
@ astewart8944334 BTW I believe @audioengr Steve N. has noted elsewhere that WAV files sound better than FLAC files.I'll have to re-rip a couple of my CDs to WAV and give it listen. I hope I can't hear a difference because I dread the thought of re-ripping my entire CD library :-). +1 @richer31 All different - non bad When comparing vinyl against different streaming sources and different playing sources with the volume set at -25 db, I've found that Tidal Masters play much louder some more than others. The same goes for Tidal High Res, MQA converted to PCM, FLAC, and ripped CDs. I have to decrease volume to about -35 db or more, and I already have the DAC input gain set -9 db lower. DSD generally plays lower, so I have to increase the volume to around -10 db. As I increase volume, the sound is smooth and gets richer as I go higher; and I hear everything! I've also found the change in sound to be more controlled with DSD. I'm guessing that's a function of my pre-amp, since changes are in .5 db increments, and the SQ of the DSD file. Regardless, all of it sounds good to me. |
Did you try to burn a cd from the stream? And compare original CD and burned CD from streaming source.? Does this sound more the same? My digital stream is pretty good (red book) tidal. My CD playback is very good for me. Sony 7ESD. Two different digital chains so I do not aspect them to sound the same. The both can sound very good. I use my CD player as reference of the sound I like and tuned my digital stream to come close. Stream from internet , (tidal -Roon) Stream from local source, (Roon) Play a CD All different - non bad |
