nkonor...
Did you get the Avalons on the used market or new? I've seen a few for sale here once in a while - they're beautiful constructs indeed.
While I'm still content with my Neo 340i integrated, I will second my appreciation for Pass Labs - I had an X150.5 and it brought out the best in my 3.5's. (Damn! I shoulda waited until I got my 3.6's before I let that go.)
But that partially funded my 3.6's so I can't really kvetch much. |
Psssst...
Upscale still has it for $3899. Reno has one for $3795...with a 1 year.
Why am I looking at the Neo like it's gone...?
Happy hunting/listening! |
jafant...
No, I almost bit on a used INT150 from Upscale which I balked on for a reason that escapes me now. I heard the Neo through a pair of Wilson Somethingorothers - $16,000 - prior to my purchase months before at Audio Den, the shop within walking distance from my house.
Sorry, but for $16,000 speakers would have to make me coffee every morning as well, maybe even make my bed. After the Wilsons we hooked up the Maggie 1.7 and .7 speakers which, at the time, had me favor the .7. To my ears the .7 were more articulate, finding the larger 1.7's to lose a little definition in the high end by comparison - believe it or not. Perhaps because the larger bass panel seemed to round out the overall sonics?
I believe the INT150 was around $4,000. The Neo, which was returned to Simaudio as part of their trade-up program, was $4,500 after a 20% discount off the regular price, along with a full factory warranty and participation in the program as well. This is the top model with phono input and DAC.
In retrospect I believe I would have jumped at the INT150 had it been available through Reno Hifi, with whom I've purchased 3 Pass amps in the past. This isn't a knock against Upscale Audio by any means since I haven't conducted business with them, but Mark at Reno has earned my business through his outstanding knowledge and service. I don't believe that Upscale offers any sort of warranty on the INT150 - I think it's still for sale at this time - so that's what ultimately steered me onto the Neo.
You already know well of my affinity for Pass Labs with Thiel. The synergy between two products that present timbre, presence, and depth so well is, for lack of an almost over-blown descriptive, utterly amazing.
For the record, I am not related to nor personally acquainted with anyone from Pass Labs, Thiel, Reno Hifi, Simaudio, Balanced Audio Technology, Magnepan, or Audio Research. My previously unsolicited opinions on their products were offered as results from real-time, hands-on, Audiogon-induced experiences. Damn this site...!
I still reserve a place in my heart for the vintage Marantz, Pioneer, and Sansui receivers, all of which represented the absolute sh*t during my introduction to high fidelity back in the '70's.
It's proven to be a long strange trip, indeed.
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nkonor...
Good point on the 3.5's midrange. I find that the 3.6's, for lack of a better term, seem to over-emphasize the thick of the midrange while the 3.5's offered a more "spacious" replication? I also notice a more evident, but typically correct feel for the bass - particularly at the conservative volume level I listen at. Nothing I've tried to put a finger on rings as a coloration of the sound, rather a considerably larger speaker's difference compared to a smaller one's. The 3.5's may have measured a little deeper with the bass, but I feel it more with the 3.6's.
As I've said in the past, "what's a few hertz here or there amongst friends?"
Are you using a sub with the Avalons? |
Moving away from the Thiel platform is a difficult task in that doing so laterally or moving up the proverbial food-chain obviously comes at a cost. No one here has yet commented on the new Thiel product line which, as it so happens to be, has as much to do with Jim Thiel as I do.
The return-on-investment Thiel extends is considerable in terms of sonics - personally speaking Thiel has become my reference point for what a loudspeaker can do. I am, as always and as an Audiogonian, curious about how other manufacturers compare. And I will no doubt purchase some others when opportunity arises. I've enjoyed Von Schweikert, Totem, Magnepan, Alon, KEF, DYNAUDIO. In this somewhat limited field the only manufacturer that comes close - to my ears - is Magnepan. It was interesting to learn of Jim Thiel's appreciation for planar speakers in an earlier post here.
For many including myself, this almost insane pursuit of fidelity is fantastically enjoyable. I believe that I was looking to buy a vintage Pioneer receiver a few years back when I stumbled onto this site and saw what my absence from actively pursuing hifi had become. To paraphrase my girl-friend's universal comment when she comes to my house, "is THAT new?" Almost as universally my reply is, "yes."
One of the questions I repeatedly ask of winemakers is whom they respect as winemakers. The answers are illuminating. I have as a result moved afar from my previous comfort zone with winemakers I once considered to be my benchmarks, my reference points. They remain in my vino-wheelhouse as Thiel remains in my audio-wheelhouse, always there, always referred to, always curious about others because of them.
Wow. I've gone off point again... |
dnanstad...
I am currently using a Simaudio 340i integrated with my 3.6's. Previously I had a Pass Labs X150.5 amplifier, 150 into 8ohms, 300 watts into 4ohms with my CS3.5's and it was possibly the best combo I had. So much so I foolishly sold my first one only to buy another later. It's THAT good.
Unsound, another contributor here with a wealth of information regarding Thiel, correctly points out that the 3.6's require considerably more power than the 3.5's to perform best.
I'm currently weighing the possible return to separates and if - I said IF, jafant - I go that way again, Pass Labs tops my list. |
That would be great! Bryston has serious cred. |
"Moving up" the Thiel line as I have - 2.2's, 2.3's, 3.5's, and now 3.6's - does not necessarily infer that each was an improvement over the former inasmuch it does infer that each is rather different from the former, if not by definition "better".
The most immediately remarkable impressions were experienced from the 2.2's to the 3.5's - each had what the previous model had with a dash of mo' better everything tossed in.
The difference between the 3.5's and 3.6's is, with the 3.6's, a more pronounced, perhaps forward midrange that, to my ears, seems to soften the notably crisp highs of Thiel in general. This is not to say that the highs are suffered by any means, nor is the low frequency
response. The few low-end hertzes I was willing to sacrifice with the 3.6's mattered not a whit; the bass is palpable, tangible, there's an appreciable sense of timbre and naturalness. I can't even imagine a need for a sub. No, sir.
Me no likey subs.
Thus far I've found that the 3.6's show their finest at a volume level a little higher than I normally prefer. And it's there that everything pours forth - the music is felt, defined, passing "the other room" test, causing me to re-enter the living room and think, "what a genius I am to have found these speakers."
Many contributors to this thread have been fortunate enough to purchase these speakers used at considerable savings. Considerable savings over what a comparatively new purchase of another brand would incur. That alone has made Thiel my reference point for considering any other brand. Extraordinarily difficult to beat.
For now, the 3.6's won't move. They're too damn heavy for one, and secondly they're just too damn good. Did I mention they're heavy?
They're heavy. Swapping cables is something of a chore requiring tipping them onto their sides onto a carpet to get at the connects on the bottom. Oof. Ouch.
Up the line? Only the future knows... |
Prof...
The lean quality of Thiel is precisely what makes me so damn fond of them. Lean can mean different things to different people, but it is just that perception that struck me as uncolored, perhaps even a tad unforgiving of reproducing sound.
I returned to a much simpler setup before I got the 3.6's, from separates to an integrated. I wish I had kept my Pass X150.5 amp a little while longer to hear how that would have been with the 3.6's. With my 3.5's it was possibly the best sound I've ever gotten - there was ZERO to kvetch about.
Hmmm...I can't...I can't...I won't....
Yeah, right. Looks like I may be shopping separates again? |
Prof...
I've also been able to enjoy my Thiels and a fair number of Maggies (MMG's, MGIIIa's, .7's, and 1.7's) as well with "modest" amplifiers in the past and..."power hungry" though their reputations may be, one can certainly enjoy any of the aforementioned models with relatively modest amps.
My first experience with Maggies was with a Cayin A50T tube integrated pushing 35 watts in triode. That was truly a "wow" event for me. Shortly after that I used the same amp with my first pair of Thiel, 2.2's, with the same result, only that from then on Thiel became my favorite/preferred/reference.
I took no small amount of satisfaction learning from here that Jim Thiel was fond of planar speakers as well, which kind of substantiated my oft-repeated phrase that Thiels are Maggies with mo' better bass. While the benefits of more power are certainly beneficial, one's listening level is more the determination for amplification. I'm not saying flea-watt power, but 50 watts and up can suffice. I recently had a Threshold A100 (?) with power meters that I thought were inoperable. Turns out I never threw enough juice to my speakers to have the meters register!
unsound and a few others in this thread have offered prudent advice concerning how to help Thiels show their best, all of which I've explored to various extents over the last few years. At the end of the day one's introduction to Thiel could be through a vintage Radio Shack receiver - and be hooked on Thiel for life.
I went from 2.2 to 2.3 to two pairs of 3.5's to my current 3.6 because my first impression from the "lowly" 2.2 had been - to paraphrase Newman and Redford in Butch Cassidy - "who IS this guy???" I had never before heard of Jim Thiel. (Mind you I had lapsed out of hifi for about 20 years before my prodigal return a few years ago. Damn you, Audiogon!)
I'm now using a Simaudio Neo 340i integrated capable of 200 watts per channel with the 3.6 and everything is peachy keen.
Basically speaking, for folks new to Thiel and/or this particular thread, "yes Virginia, it IS possible to discover the sonic excellence of Thiel with your current amp/receiver/separate" - but be forewarned that you've entered a space from which exiting is an exercise in futility. All ye who enter Audiogon should abandon all hope of ever believing what you have now is good enough for Thiel.
Oy-vey!
|
Undoubtedly unsound will offer wise advice/suggestions regarding powering the 3.7's appropriately; his past advice regarding my former 3.5's was useful and utilized. Toward that end I have to once again offer my opinion on Pass Labs - if the cost is in your wheelhouse. Right now there's an X250 up for grabs here for $2500 - pretty much the same amount I paid for my two, on separate occasions, X150.5's. I believe the X250 is 250 into 8ohms, 450-500 into 4ohms. Pass was by far and away the most neutral or colorless amplifier I've owned to date, IMHO a perfect match for Thiel loudspeakers which share the same sonic descriptions - colorless, neutral, accurate.
Per unsound's spot-on remarks, the 3.5's were/are possibly the easiest Thiel model to drive without stressing the amp, 300 watts into 4 ohms and I never stressed a hair remaining on me head.
Funny how we evolve our systems around these excellent speakers, ain't it? |
jonandfamily...
I'm currently using a Simaudio integrated with my 3.6's and find it pretty damn good, 200 watts into their 4ohm load. I sold off my second X150.5 and a BAT VK3i preamp simply because I grew weary of all the wires and what not.
I started out with a First Watt M2(?) ss amp and almost immediately moved to my first X150.5 when I got my first pair of 3.5's. I've had a few AR preamps and they pair exceptionally with Pass and Thiel. The X250 for sale here is an early model, followed by the 250.5, and the 250.8. From what I've discovered, at least with the 150 series, there is no manufacturer upgrade path from one to the next. Obviously, Pass commands a pretty steep entrance fee - the 250 for sale here is as much as a used X150.5 goes for currently, but with a LOT MORE power on tap.
Yes, I'd say the Pass 250 is more than well suited to your 3.6's. |
corvette...
A little while back I was driving my 3.5's with a Primare A34.2 class D amplifier - I forget which preamp I was using at the time - 150 watts into 8ohms, "almost double that" into 4 ohms. (The "almost..." quote direct from Primare when I inquired regarding the manual's lack of providing a 4 ohm rating.)
While I can't fault the Primare for anything it did or didn't do, I fall back on my preference for the Pass Labs X150.5 solid state amp with the 3.5's. It's just a "me-thing" with Pass, even now when I'm happy with my Simaudio 330i integrated which is "only" 200 watts into 4 ohms. I hasten here to reiterate that I listen at VERY conservative levels, and I've never blown an amp or a speaker in my life.
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dlcockrum...
I will verify that "any old amp" sounds good with Thiel. Subsequently, it's the Thiels that make a body crazy afterward trying to find the mo' better amps to appease the audio gods.
At the very least Thiels are addictive. While almost everything in my current setup has been changed the Thiels remain unchanged. I've tossed Musical Fidelity monoblocks at 'em, a CJ MF2200, Pass Labs X150.5, and maybe even a few others at 'em and the speakers stayed. (Even after a few switches - Maggie 1.7 and .7's, Von Schweikert VR-4's...) Thiel just does everything "right" for me even though my curiousity about other components is a weak spot.
Just for sh*ts and giggles I hooked up an old Pioneer SX1050 receiver this weekend to my 3.6's and ya know what? Damn if it didn't sound good. Love these freakin' speakers. |
catalysis...
Great tip. I actually sent my mids to Rob when I bought my first pair of 3.5's and figured the $600 I paid for the work was a good investment in what is a truly amazing loudspeaker. My nephew now has those.
A good while after after that I found another pair of 3.5's from a fellow member and Thielista for $350 - can't beat that with any stick!
VERY worth any repair investment! |
Just discovered that the left mid is not working. May send off to Rob @ Thiel. Still checking. |
I just succeeded in outbidding a few other folks on the site for a pair of original owner CS3.5's.
I actually had no idea my bid would be the highest and was shocked that I wasn't outbid.
Frankly speaking, I've stolen them. If there's another local NYer reading this thread I will part with them for what I paid which is absurdly below their true worth, provided they're picked up.
Truly amazing speakers - astounding at this price.
I'm keeping my 3.6's and seeking new amp/preamp combo. While my Simaudio is a very good piece I feel it cannot showcase what the 3.6's are capable of.
Carry on. |
unsound...
You're a New Yawkah, too?
I'm picking them up in NYC this Saturday morning.
Jafant...
It all depends upon what my Simaudio may fetch as to what I may go with. Pass definitely tops my list for amps. There's been a couple nice BAT integrateds on here lately, too. |
Well, I picked up the CS3.5's today in NYC, drove home, swapped the cables from my CS3.6's and...
The cabinets are quite rough in some spots and the grills could definitely benefit from a re-do, but all the drivers are sound and the sonics are, as expected, excellent. While I'm not parting with my 3.6's, there IS something about the 3.5's that absolutely thrills me. Tomorrow I'm gonna throw the EQ in the chain for further inspection. So far, so utterly good.
As to what I won the auction for? How does $206 grab you? Truthfully, two hundred and six measly dollars that sound like THIS??? In spite of this pair being the most cosmetically challenged pair I've purchased - and this makes 3 pairs thus far - the sonics remain impressive.
Unsound...if you were serious about picking them up they're yours to have for the identical price. I will of course list them to keep abiding by A'gon rules, but they're yours.
So so far as what may be in my wheelhouse for another amp, Simaudio may well be in play since I can trade this 340idpx2 integrated back for full boat purchase price ($4500) when I upgrade. This is the top of the line model with every bell and whistle - I think I can even convert it to a gas grill, unless I'm mistaken...Within a year of purchase. Not a bad deal, but I could exceed my budget. Naturally, based on past experience, I've been checking out Reno Hifi for a nice Pass Labs. Perhaps a BAT integrated, perhaps a Bryston amp. All depends on the audio gods and my wallet. If'n I go with separates I'd be looking at Pass amp/ARC preamp. Again, all depends...
Anyway, I thought paying $350 for my previous pair of one owner 3.5's put me in the "bargain hall of fame", but this was just silly.
Right now I'm tugging on an icy cold bottle of Greenport Beehave Summer Ale after ripping my kitchen cabinets apart all day, listening to that glorious pair of 3.5's remind me why I started drinking the Thiel kool-aid in the first place.
Groovy man, just groovy. |
Hmmm...
After some soul-searching and a week of updating my kitchen which adversely affected my audio budget, keeping the Simaudio appeared as the wisest and most frugal/sensible option at hand for the moment.
That, and a brand spankin' new Weber grill with Dolby and Bluetooth/wifi/searing station/smoker/coffee when I wake up depleted any hopes of finding an amp to make my 3.6's sound similar to my 3.5's.
However, long being a fan of REL subs while at the same time eschewing subs in general, I found an incredibly too-good-to-pass-up model offered online from my pals at Stereo Exchange in NYC - who are still in the midst of relocating.
$600 fate accompli, including a Rel cable worth $400. Sheesh.
Everything Thiel is renown for - highs/mids/definition - was there in spades but the bass, especially at lower volume levels, was lacking to the point where I thought I was going nuts. The Rel T7 makes that moot.
Now I'm absolutely the last person to think that adding a sub to Thiel would improve them since I believe that Thiel is as close to speaker nirvana as one can possibly get, but this option not only saved me a few beaucoup dollars, it absolutely makes me appreciate the 3.6's more than my beloved 3.5's. Wow. The improvement on the lower register is palpable, tangible, even natural. REL makes awfully good sh*t, kids.
Presence, mids to cry for, now with a gorgeous "roundness" that the 3.6's were previously lacking. Happy camper here. |
Not at all odd that the article neglected/omitted mention of any personage responsible for building/designing the products. Such is the failure of attempting to perpetuate the history and legacy of a brand simply by badging the name onto products that have little or no connection to those that established it originally.
BMW has been "marketing" a hatchback for a while now and, having long been a SAAB kinda guy in the past, I had to take one for a spin. When I remarked that it was in no small way nothing more than a more expensive Saab, the sales rep looked at me funny and asked, "What's a Saab?"
This new woman is destined to fail sooner or later simply because just marketing the Thiel brand is like bringing back an Oldsmobile - yeah I remember when but ...didn't they become pieces of sh*t? |
unsound...
A few posts back you mentioned that you might be interested in the pair of 3.5's I picked up for a pittance?
After repeated trials I discovered that both midranges were failed, no sound. (Although I almost hate to admit it they still sounded good.)
Senior citizens ears...
Anyway, the cabinets were pretty rough - the roughest pair of the 3 pairs I've had, the tweeters are dimpled - not the single sort but more of an imperfect roundness all around. They work. The woofers are without flaw.
I extricated the drivers and the crossovers from the cabinets, serial numbers consecutive 707 & 708, and the bass eq is functioning. All the screws, the badges I've bagged.
If you or anyone else is willing to pick them up they're FREE. The mids look fine, they just don't work - no holes etc. If you have a pair that you might want "back up" for, they're here, and they're FREE.
I'm looking at a B. A. T. VK300XSE Integrated with recertified factory warranty right now for around $3k; the extra 100 watts this will lend to my 3.6's seems a wise option IMHO. While the REL T7 sub I've added has made a palpable improvement to these great speakers, methinks a little mo' better amp wouldn't hoit, either. Previously I had a B. A. T. pre and loved it. |
PS: I'm awaiting delivery of the BAT VK300XSE. Dual mono/phono stage/tubed front end/factory recertified for 5 years. I'm almost pinching myself.
In fact, I am. |
jonandfamily...
I think it's a little of both. I'll check my settings on the REL to be certain. |
audiojan...
Leaving Thiel is a frustrating task, albeit one that I've personally managed to do a few times simply out of curiousity if nothing else.
Obviously for sonics I definitely recommend Maggies - they still command an attraction for me that is as hard to fathom/explain as is my appreciation for Thiel. They do so much right that the "shortcomings" many people express about them are negligible. The only aspect to kvetch about is, of course, Maggie's "Easter Island" physicality - they can dominate a space with their imposing dimensions. I've had .7's, and the 1.7's and loved 'em both - both times returning to Thiel, 3.5's referenced here, twice. Thiels are indeed Maggies with mo' bass. And that's a compliment.
I can also recommend Von Shweikert, another brand that I've found to be relatively close to Thiel, but with a lesser degree of the midrange punch that Thiel delivers. I've had VR2 and 4's, with the 4's being a closer match.
Meadowlarks. Like Jim Thiel, Pat McGinty also had a penchant for coherency and time alignment and his speakers absolutely deliver superior sonics. Used, they're just an incredible bargain. I gave my gf a pair of Kestrels a few years ago which we listen to paired with a Pioneer SX850 receiver - the little two-driver imp really impresses to this day.
Obviously all of my Thiel purchases have been from the used market, 2.2, 2.3, three pairs of 3.5, and now, FINALLY the 3.6. The Maggies I've mentioned I purchased new. It's impossible to argue the return-on-investment that used Thiels offer. Can't be beat. Nope. Can't.
I just swapped my Simaudio Neo 340i for a B. A. T. Integrated because I think my 3.6's would appreciate the extra current/wattage that the 340i couldn't deliver. (Neo 200 into 4 ohms, the B. A. T. 300 into 4 ohms.) With the 3.6's I found it necessary to add a small sub - the 3.6's were so "Maggie-like" with regard to bass reproduction that I grew frustrated. The bass from the 3.5's was indelible at all listening levels whereas to my humble ears, the 3.6 seemed to abandon it. This small REL T7 managed to make me keep the 3.6.
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unsound...
No problemo. My offer stands until you decide if you'll pick them up or not. If you don't I'll just part them out somehow. Have a great Labor Day weekend, all! |
dlcockrum...
Precisely! At the low levels I listen at 90% of the time the 3.6's just don't provide what you described whereas, IMHO, the 3.5's did - thanks in part to the bass equalizer no doubt. This "little" REL has truly made the 3.6's sound better. Not too shabby considering that they're truly remarkably fine speakers to begin with.
The bass now has that sense of "feel", not heard that you remarked upon. Love it. Thanks for putting into words something I could not.
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jafant...
I saw a couple listed here and wound up somehow on TMR's site on a subsequent search for the VK300XSE. While I would love to have the time sufficient to visit dealers and audition stuff, plain fact of the matter is that I just don't. I buy virtually blind and deaf all the time. Making appointments for a hobby is something time doesn't afford me.
My previous appreciation for the BAT VK3i preamplifier I had when I had my Pass X150.5 amp was the primary reason for my purchase of the integrated; returning to separates at this time is something I simply do not desire. Thiels make us do crazy things since they hide nothing. I'm a good example.
The best news is the BAT is arriving on Saturday - just in time for my annual Labor Day Seafood Fest/family get together on Sunday. Much to do, smoked duck breast, smoked oysters, dumplings fried in the duck fat, raw oysters, various incarnations of shrimp and scallops, veggies up the ying/yang, wine, spirits, brewskis...
Fun on many points.
Happy Labor Day all! |
So, there I was a week ago awaiting the arrival of my recertified BAT VK300XSE from Colorado...
I got what I feel was a fair enough trade-in on my Simaudio Neo340iDPX2 toward the BAT, $1800 toward the $3100, so all was good there. I didn't want the hassle of selling it privately nor did I want the swing-time between committing to the BAT and getting the offset from the Neo.
The BAT arrived Saturday of Labor Day weekend - days before it was scheduled. Woohoo. Happy camper.
I unbox it, wire it up, plug it in and...nuttin'.
It goes into standby/warmup mode, but nothing further. Blank face. Zippo. Nada. Zilch. I check and double check everything. Same thing. Nuttin'.
I send an email explaining the situation. No response until after the weekend. (Understandable.) Turns out they're not open weekends, anyway.
My contact there contacts BAT and they forward a set of re-boot instructions which are included in the original owner's manuals but NOT in their recertified units. I re-unbox the unit, wire it up, plug it in, follow the procedure and...
nuttin'. Big ol' brick once again. I re-do everything again. Check everything. ( Not a helluva lot to do so far as hooking up an integrated amplifier, is there?) Nuttin'.
Sigh.
My contact then sends me another email with a shipping label going to BAT directly for the non-working unit. He then immediately ships another recertified VK300XSE to me.
It arrived today. It works. I was right about my 3.6's liking a little more power. (300 vs 200 watts @ 4ohms). While the Neo was nothing to sneeze at by any means, the BAT simply "presents" better overall, particularly at the conservative level I find myself listening at 90% of the time. The phono stage in the BAT is also more detailed. Good stuff.
I'm still finding that adding the REL T7 to my system improves things. I'll be taking it in and out of service to determine how the BAT itself improves upon the Neo, but I can't say at this moment if it warrants removing the REL altogether. I like the way everything is sounding.
The folks at TMR did everything right addressing my problem with the first unit. I couldn't ask for better - they treated me well.
Back to digging the hell outta my Thiels...
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nkonor...
I've actually had a pair of 3.5 mids repaired by Rob @ Thiel - my first pair which are now in my nephew's possession. I'd have to scroll back through the 1800 + posts here to verify it, but the rebuild, as opposed to "repair", was $350 apiece all things totaled - shipping back and forth, labor. Not necessarily cheap, but an investment worth the money considering how utterly good the 3.5's were. Are.
Would it it be a disservice to the new owners to pass along a link to this and other Thiel threads here so they may garner some idea of how far off the mark their current and former strategies are? I doubt it. Their intentions were and continue to be guided by marketing, not product. "Hey guys, look at this premium loudspeaker brand that costs a lot! We can do that!"
They've proven from the outset that they cannot do that, nor did they have any intention of respecting Jim Thiel's work. Pretty appalling all around.
In all likelihood my 3.6's will be the last loudspeakers I'll purchase. I continue to cultivate my interest in other brands, listen to them when time permits, but I usually come to the conclusion that, gee, well, they ain't Thiels.
Man, that guy knew his sh*t! |
Nkonor...
My nephew still has the 3.5's without experiencing any issues whatsoever. (With the repaired mids.) Actually, only one of the mids on that pair was malfunctioning but I thought "what the heck" and had 'em both done by Rob at Thiel. Total cost of the original purchase plus repair was, I think, $1400 - a figure that kind of boggles the mind considering what $1400 for a new pair of brand x might get you.
The middle pair of 3.5's I had were 100% functioning. No issues whatsoever.
The last pair, which I've gutted and saved all the drivers and crossovers, and the eq, had both mids completely out. Again, "what the heck" since I paid just $200 for them. The cabinets were challenged beyond what I determined to be a worthy restore. I've offered the drivers and eq to a fellow contributor in this forum for free if he's willing to pick them up. He has the first right of refusal. If he passes on the offer I'll offer the same to any other member here with the same caveat. The woofers are in fine shape , the tweeters have dimpling but sounded fine. The notorious midrange drivers, well, for a fellow Thielista with mids in more compromised physical condition than these - "hmmm, why don't you work, you look okay?" - might want them for repair. Again, free if picked up.
This afternoon I listened to my recently acquired BAT integrated without the REL sub in the chain and find that the 3.6's are revealing more sufficient detail at low level listening than with the Simaudio Neo. The phono stage in this BAT is truly remarkable, far better than the Neo's managed to be.
As you noted and I've said, I continue to be curious about other speaker brands, with Thiel and Magnepan being my personal point of reference for what a speaker should do for me. Both brands do a lot for me, and Thiel edges out Maggie in that comparison. Maggies suffer by dint of their size and how they impose themselves, Maggies win because of their light weight and move ability. Thiels are HEAVY mothers. Also both are weighted in terms of being able to acquire them - my financial wheelhouse would never assume a $10k+ expenditure.
By the way I never had a Pass integrated. I had an X150.5 amp and a BAT VK3i preamp at that time. I went for the BAT Integrated this time around because a decent used Pass integrated was/is roughly double that. Ouch. I liked the BAT pre so much I figgered chancing an integrated from them was fairly low risk. I was right, I'm liking this thing a lot. |
jafant...
Oddly enough the tech at BAT noted that the unit I returned had been "dropped hard, onto a hard surface" causing the chassis to be bent and the led display to fail. This was not the case at all upon my receipt of it originally, something which I would have immediately related to Karl at The Music Room given that their site's description of the unit did not include such a physical condition. They describe their stuff pretty well. I repacked the unit as I received it, even forwarding photos to TMR to "cover my ass", as I did when I repacked the Neo and sent it to them. The BAT tech closed by stating there would be no investigation as to whom, or where, or when the alleged damage occurred, they repaired the unit and sent it back to TMR.
Although I was somewhat irked by those comments, BAT and TMR responded quickly, attending to a customer's issue, addressing it, resolving it. No complaints there. Had I dropped the unit causing the DOA, I would have contacted BAT directly myself and sought repair at that point. My parents didn't raise dishonest kids. Furthermore, even though I didn't buy it through the 'Gon, my reputation as a seller/buyer here and elsewhere is something I take very seriously.
Again, kudos to TMR's Karl who handled my trade and the issue professionally. Kudos as well to BAT for working with them to resolve the situation.
Anyway...
Yes, the BAT offers more detail than did the Neo at my listening levels. The phono stage is far superior to the Neo's to a degree that playing vinyl supercedes the ease of playing my server. It's THAT good. (Marantz TT-15 with an mm cartridge. Basically it's a rebadged Clearaudio tt.) I listened to "Life Is A Carnival" by the Band as sort of a test because that is one "busy as hell" piece of music, and, well, just wow. Then I tossed on "Cyril Davies", Ginger Baker, from my Sony HAPZ1es, a tune I use to judge equipment, and again the sonics were impressive. Both were listened to without the REL T7 in service, so the bass definition here, that I thought was missing from my 3.6's, was quickly evident. It seems we dwell a bit on Thiel's bass reproduction and/or lack of it at times, and I hasten to add that I ain't looking for the "boom" at all, Thiel bass reproduction is clean, articulate, uncolored. That's what I love the most about Thiel in general. That, and the mids and highs.
The BAT's tubed front end mimics the setup I employed with the Pass amp/BAT preamp I previously dug. The BAT takes about a minute to reach operation. A blue led light flashes in tandem with the main display until that's reached. I'm finding that things become more distinct after about an hour of play, which is pretty much par for the proverbial course with anything. There's a little more heat from the top of the unit because of the tubes, but I don't stack my equipment anyway, so that's never been an issue.
All in all, despite the glitch encountered, a good purchase. 1 year factory warranty, more power, good customer service, good amp. |
Jafant...
TMR handled it directly. Once I attempted the procedure BAT relayed to no avail, TMR sent me a shipping label back to BAT. They then shipped another unit to me. (They had 2) All things considered there was an excellent synergy - one of your fave words - between manufacturer, retailer, and me, the customer. All pertaining to a recertified unit as well - imagine that!
Both companies have earned my trust should any opportunity arise in the future with either. Class acts. |
I spoke directly with Rob @ Thiel a couple of times and once told him about this thread. I don't know if he's ever even taken a gander, but I'm pretty certain he'd find our collective appreciation for the speakers enjoyable.
Perhaps even kinda scary.
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arniespin...
As you may have read have been an ardent proponent of the 3.5's here, recently acquiring a pair of elusive (for me) 3.6's that somehow came and went now and again until I bought a pair from Chicago. Yikes! Shipping!
All the previous models I owned I bought semi-locally, the furthest being my first pair of 3.5's which were located in Massachusetts. The others were within about 50-75 miles from my house. I was fearful of having them shipped and when 3.6's came around most were across the country - so I balked time and time again.
Then the pair of 3.6's popped up for $1300 in Chicago. I hesitated. Then I figgered it might be my last chance. They strapped 'em to pallets for $300 and...well, I finally got 'em.
As a means of relating how cool this thread is, I had a fellow member on the site contact me to say that the speakers were in excellent shape. He lives about an hour from the store that I purchased from and went to check them out himself. He had no interest in telling me that other than being a Thielista himself. Cool stuff.
Welcome - hope they show up perfect! |
I've always been nervous about having speakers shipped so I tend to constrict my inquiries to "local" sellers. I just had a gent drive up from Tennessee to pick up a pair of Alon ll's that I had for a month - now THAT's audiophile! (But that's another thread altogether, ain't it?)
Audiogon, Thiel, damn you! Since becoming a member you have driven me to an enjoyable madness. I hasten to add that all of the stuff I have bought over the last few years were attempts to find the "right" matches for my Thiels. It was never, "gee, these speakers kinda suck" as it was "gee, these speakers need better stuff" even though they immediately made my room sound better no matter what amp I had at the time.
McIntosh, Musical Fidelity, Primare, Threshold, Simaudio, BAT, GAS, Pass Labs, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research (pre only) - each have had their go at my 3.5's. This quest has had its ups and downs, I wish I still had my Pass X150.5 to see how it would do with my 3.6's now. I moved to an integrated recently because I grew weary of all the wires and NASA type startup procedures involved with separates, but who knows what the future and/or opportunities may present?
Of the aforementioned amps etc the Pass amp/BAT pre combo was, IMHO, perhaps the best. (CS3.5) I also liked the ARC preamps I employed - brighter than the BAT yes, but I like bright more than most. At this point in time a Pass INT 150 remains out of my reach financially. Used they're going for upwards of $6k. My BATVK300xse integrated is doing swell right now.
The difference between the 2.2 and 2.3's I had was minimal. The difference between the 2.3's and 3.5's was not - it was a much more obvious difference, and all good. The difference between the 3.5's and 3.6's is immediately obvious - very different, but all good. What an amazing product Thiel is.
Damn. Now I'm thinking 3.7's...
You b*st*rds!
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I updated my virtual systems page to show the BAT integrated in place.
The speakers are approximately 8 feet apart and about 18" from the back wall. (I actually have a stick marked in increments of six inches.) Like my 3.5's, the 3.6's seem to like 18 inches from the rear wall. I sit around 12 feet away which, at low volumes, can be something that leaves things to be desired. Since the 3.6's arrived I've been listening at slightly higher volume levels which appears to be what these speakers just...love. Period. I am constantly reminded how excellent Thiel speakers are - all of the models I've enjoyed. They just absolutely do it for me.
Funny, there is a pair of WHITE 3.5's up on eBay now. I've never seen 3.5's in white before.
Kinda cool but...sheesh! Not my cuppa tea.
Carry on, folks. This is hands down a great thread.
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Joni Mitchell.
Paprika Plains. The last 3 or 4 minutes when Weather Report closes the song.
Now that's a test for Thiel bass reproduction.
Natural. Taut. Hit the replay button. Can't stop.
Ginger Baker. Cyril Davis. Is he in my room?
Thiels astound.
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Jafant...
That's a block of maple I had left over from when my previous Salamander rack was about a foot lower. I purchased the block here on the site, they come up from time to time and they're well made - somewhere in the $100 range if I ain't mistaken. I think I still have another block somewhere in the house.
That Salamander rack in the photo cost me $150. Just before Stereo Exchange in NYC vacated their long time location they were selling off everything, even stuff that was nailed down. (They are still searching for a new location at the moment.) Dave will email me when they re-open. (The REL sub I mentioned in an earlier post was bought from their eBay site which is up and running.) I picked it up at his apartment. Sheesh.
Even though the Salamander rack isn't "gear" per sè, it has to represent one of the best purchases I've invested - that's easily a $1500 piece o' furniture. Nary a scratch on it. While not in the photos, there are two other Salamander cabinets in the room which hold my manuals, tools, cables, etc., all of the other associated flotsam and jetsam that we accrue in the hobby.
At 107 pounds apiece them 3.6's aren't about to be fiddled with much. It was fun unpacking them. Not! The boys at Saturday Audio made sure they'd arrive in good shape. Hell, they could have been dragged to my house with no worse the wear.
Last night we was bbq'ing at my gf's house, listening to a Motown playlist on my Peachtree Audio Deepblue2 in the back yard. (iPod through its aux jack, the Bluetooth option stinks.) I also set the bass level at its lowest position - this thing doesn't need it.
"Ball Of Confusion" by the Temptations came on and everybody just stopped. Man, what a busy little tune. Top 40 radio in 1970. So difficult to imagine now what commercial radio was back then. It's just an amazing piece of music for any time. It's the first thing I'm throwing at my Thiels later this afternoon when I get home. If it sounded so damn good on a portable speaker it out to be glorious through the 3.6's.
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jafant...
Just about anything that supports or is near something electronic in my humble abode rests atop, in, or on a Salamander rack. The piece in the virtual systems photo is the only one not from its Synergy series which I've had for years.
I appreciate the clean lines, understated design, and the heft of their construction - one of the foremost reasons I had from the outset was in providing as much isolation as possible. The block of maple under the BAT may be somewhat superfluous at this point, but what the hell. I don't need another cutting board in my kitchen.
I've been reading about one member's questioning a move from his 3.6's to the 6, whether or not such an investment is sonically worth it. From my experience, limited as it has been with 2.2, 2.3, 3.5, and now 3.6, I can state with some degree of accuracy that the differences between the first three models is, by comparison, modest in terms of anything relevatory. The difference in "moving up" from the 3.5 to 3.6 is remarkable. They are VERY different loudspeakers which, given my journey thus far, could have me pining for a 5 in short order. There again, I would assume that the 5 is VERY different from the 3.6.
I hasten to to add that, IMHO, the 3.6's are more detailed, perhaps even more focused on the mids than were/are the 3.5's - and all to an impressive degree. I don't believe I was missing anything with the 3.5's in that respect, but the 3.6's just deliver more - especially at the conservative level I listen at. I always had the 3.5 eq employed because I had no reason to question Thiel's engineering. The sacrifice in low end hertz with the 3.6's is hardly anything to kvetch about. (3.5's 20hz-20khz, 3.6's 27hz-20khz.) Sheesh, vot's a few hoitz between friends, anyway.
Since we now no longer have the opportunity to audition the legacy models, I guess I'm saying that moving up yields risk to some degree, but seeing how the speaker models evolve is a gas. |
My 3.6's are roughly eight feet apart and 18" from the back wall. I've yet to find that any toe-in delivers any better sonics, so they ain't toed-in.
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vair68robert...
I sit approximately 12 feet away when listening in a very tough room acoustically - the left speaker is about 5 feet from a sidewall, the right about 13 feet from a sidewall. At its apex from left to right the ceiling is 17 feet high. Hard floor, hard walls, very little furniture - quite a bright space, which is fine with me. I like "bright" over bass any day of the week. I " forgive" a great deal from my setup because having tried other configurations over the years, where it's placed now is both aesthetically and sonically acceptable.
I've tried going along the longest wall but found I didn't like sitting to so close to the speakers which was about 6-8 feet doing that. That also had my setup directly in front of the baseboard heater, a large window, where the Christmas tree goes every year...the Thiels are just too damn heavy to monkey around even once or twice a year. The 3.5's were 70 pounds apiece,
the 3.6's are 108 pounds apiece. It's a pain in the ass to swap out cables on them as the connects are on the bottom. My sixty year old bones are becoming less tolerant of the labor involved.
I hold an altogether unscientific and unwarranted theory that music needs "air" to sound right, or good, or whatever. I was never a headphone guy. Within my limited scope of speakers that make the "air" concept right, it's been Thiel and Magnepan that impress me or, at the very least, meet my unscientific/unwarranted theory's parameters. I don't know a mosfet from a misfit, but I know what sounds good to me. And what looks good in my living space. In a different house, with a dedicated room, things might be different. For now and the foreseeable future, nuh uh.
Besides, with the 17 foot high ceiling and the pretty open space I have, the "other room" theory has been proven true. (Walk into another room and see how things sound) I cook a lot on weekends so I'm off in the kitchen listening for hours on end. Things sound so good from there that I often walk back into the living room to better appreciate a tune or two. Only Thiel and Magnepan have managed to do that well for me. So well in fact that I've burned a few recipes over the years returning to the living room.
I also subscribe to the theory that short cable runs are better. I currently use 8 foot Transparent cables on the 3.6's which have a lot of slack. I previously had MF monoblocks with very short runs and I liked that. Just makes sense, methinks. I'm so bored today that I'm going to measure what I need and get a custom pair of cables made to eradicate the spaghetti strands behind my rack. Drives me batsh*t.
PS: The REL T7 sub I bought a while back is getting less and less use now that the BAT integrated is shaking hands with the 3.6's. At very low volume I continue to employ it just to "round" things out.
Works for me.
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Arniespin...
I reside in the 'boibs, out on the island in Lake Grove - a town with neither a lake nor a grove in site. What makes up for the lack of namesake is a good little store right around the corner from me, Audio Den.
It was opportunity that made me jump on the ones from Chicago. I felt they could be the last pair at a fair price - $1300 plus $300 palletized - that I would find "close" to me. Prior I had let a couple of New York ones elude me. Just hadda pull the trigger.
I was/remain so damn fond of the 3.5's that appreciating the 3.6's has taken some 'sperimenting. Today I think I attained bringing out their DNA by swapping a few cables. (Posted a few minutes ago) Mind you, I dug the 3.6's right offa the pallet and outta the box, but there was still SOMETHING not coming forth.
Methinks it's the Goertz cables mostly. Two feet shorter than the Transparent cables were.
Damn. Now I'm gonna start pining for a pair of 3.7's... |
Arniespin...
Big congrats on receiving the 3.7's safely! I received my 3.6's from Chicago on a pallet and I was literally watching the weather from start to finish. Cool that you could compare the differences side by side between the 3.5/3.7 too. Enjoy! |
vair68robert...
Feh - I've learned to forgive what my room doesn't and just get back to listening to music.
I dug through my magic bag of speaker cables today and found - to my glee - a 6 foot pair of Goertz Alpha Core Veracity cables that I bought I don't know how long ago. I've had this irking feeling that SOMETHING wasn't coming through with my 3.6's now...something. Out went the Transparent cables...
I also swapped out the rca ic's I was using with my Sony HAP server, returning to balanced XLR.
Methinks me hit on a good tweak.
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Jafant...
Perhaps even shortening the cables from 8 to six feet helped as well. Something's contributing to the improvement.
Hmm, methinks it's time to sell the REL T7 I bought a couple weeks back... |
Jafant...
No, just the speaker cables. The 3.6's are a tough beast to get to sound "right". Of course my comparison is weighed against my appreciation for how good the 3.5's were. Perhaps upgrading my power source with the BAT300xse AND the cable swap is getting there.
Did you see those WHITE 3.5's on eBay? Jeeze Louise, them is pretty hard on the eyes - something I thought I'd never say about a Thiel. |
saffron...
A pretty good while back. I still have two pairs of shorter Goertz Veracity that I used with my cheap-seats Musical Fidelity monoblocks on my 3.5's. I think I had an ARC linestage back then. Probably.
I don't remember what the Goertz replaced when I did that, but the difference between
Transparent/Goertz now is VERY obvious, with the Goertz my preference. My 3.6's definitely require a higher listening level than the 3.5's did to shine. And not by much, either. The Goertz bring out the detail and "pressure" even at my standard level. THAT's what I was missing initially with the 3.6's.
The 3.5 and 3.6 are VERY different speakers. As I creep up the Thiel line - money and opportunity permitting - this lesson has taught me well. Sometimes simply maintaining one's previous cables doesn't mean your new speakers will show best. My appreciation/familiarity with/for Thiel just told me something was slightly amiss with my appreciation for the 3.6. The Goertz seem to have solved this for me.
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jonandfamily...
In the 40 or so years that I’ve been buying “hifi” I’ve never blown a speaker nor a fuse. In all this time I’ve never given a single thought about a fuse’s impact on the sonics of my gear - which is not to say that I doubt there might be some, but nothing about a fuse that wasn’t already deigned by the manufacturer to be sufficient for its product has ever caused me to think, “gee, am I missing something?”
I recently saw the new SR “blue” fuse offered here and I asked a question regarding their only offering a 6.3A 250v sku when my integrated calls for a replacement of 6A 250v. I’m curious about trying this “tweak” to better my system, but unless I’m mistaken isn’t it foolish/dangerous to replace a fuse with one of a higher amperage?
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arniespin...
I once had the Rogue Cronus Magnum Integrated a while back and I dug it like a shovel. I believe I had it going with a pair of Totem Rainmakers and a small REL sub.
I very well might have sold that off when I got my 3.5’s and figgered mo’ juice was better.
Totem makes some impressive stuff. I’ve had their Hawks as well - two pairs at different times. Stupid, yes - then again I’ve had 3, count em, three pairs of 3.5’s in the last few years.
Totem was fine, but I found the Hawks bass somewhat artificial sounding, but comparing to Thiel isn’t really fair! |
