Lets's just say that I was involved with Legacy and it's designer when they were first building speakers in a two car garage. And followed many years after that.
Mr M that still doesn't answer our questions to is the system that you had the same and you only swapped the Legacy's for the Vandys?
Also doesn't answer the vintage we heard Legacy for years and we thought their speakers were good but not great, it is only with the recent series of products did we get on board a few years ago and have been thrilled with them. Earlier versions were not as coherent and the older drivers were not in the same league as the current Heil AMT and the new silk and graphite midrange driver.
Vandersteen anti-wonky since 1977 more than 250 K sold
my God, something must be right.....
yes designing a great speaker using first order slopes is very difficult and requires drivers that do not breakup for much larger operating bands. There are of course other brilliant speaker designers. Does KEF make a stand or recommend a speaker height in the LS50 manual ?
IF you were paying attention to reading others posts vs just selling, you would know that I spend a good bit of time in a studio with a pair of ATC... I am quite aware of what they can do. But I also know the whims of fashion in that business..JBL, genelec, Yamaha, etc....run by many of the same people bringing you loads of compression and albums with 10 dB of dynamic..range for the record studio owner prefers his Focal mounted side by side....
No Tomic we aren't just selling. and we do pay attention. If you notice we don't have your position, we like many different types of loudspeakers nor do we believe that any brand or any technology is intrinsically better than any other.
If you came to our shop and heard our Personas, our Legacys or Kef's we wouldn't tell you one was better than another.
Please tell me which performance sedan is better? A BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac?
All are valid choices all have strengths and weaknesses.
Again back to the studio discussion, yes Focal makes studio monitors as does ATC, and Genlec, please find one studio that uses Vandersteen if the speakers are so acurate you should be able to find studios using them correct?
We do know that a famous record producer uses Legacys and there are a few other studios as well, perfect pistons are perfect aren't they?
Your love of Vandy is commendable and they do make great speakers for some people, you think the reason we like Legacy or Paradigm is because we sell them, no sell them because we like them.
We have stated our position on Vandy many times before, they aren't our cup of tea, and for the money we have choices we feel are better suited for our values.
Yes your point about tweeter height completely invalidates the entire company. Do you think that perhaps the decision to make the speaker stands a particular height which may be different from the manual is that many listeners may not like a taller stand based on the looks of the combo?
Sure lets compare facts with facts Kef is a $200-300 million dollar a year company Vandy does probably $10 million a year, lets be generous and say they are $20-30 million dollars a year, do you honestly think that Kef grew into one of the top loudspeaker companies of all times because they don't make a fantastic products?
Sure Vandy is all about the small guy vs the big boys like B&W, Focal, and KEF right, if you remember all of these companies were started by single men in similar circumstances, and all of these companies have been in business a very long time. yet these are the three biggest high end speaker manufacturers in the world and all three make all of their own drivers and have continued to evolve their designs and technologies and in some cases radically.
So please let not mix facts that market share means nothing.
Market share allows you to develop products which cost $4 million dollars to develop like the Kef Blades, I guess that all of the accolades that Kef has received on their loudspeakers also account for nothing.
Please stop your arguements that don't hold water.
The Kef Blades can easily stand up to a pair of Vandy 7's which you prefer is up to you, however, as we we pointed out before you can build a pretty darn nice system of Kef Blades plus amp, preamp, dac and cables for the $30k plus difference in price between the two loudspeakers.
Good night Tomic enjoy your purly pistonic perfect loudspeakers, we will suffer listening to our $30k Blades or Personas or Legacy Aeris too bad we will be suffering so much with these "inferior" products as we continue to chase our tails.
actually I was listening to the Thiels this evening, perhaps you missed that tomorrow might be the real Quad ESL-63 and the next the Apogee stage... and the next modified Cornwalls....
I was selling KEF 105.2 and designing crossovers with an FFT when you were doing what in 1980 ?
you should reread the white paper on the LS 50 and look for intersections w Vandersteen philosophy...there are many... where they diverge is sacrificing phase accuracy for frequency response...wiring the tweeter out of phase...
Yes Tomic we won’t claim to have designed any crossovers, we know what many people like and many people like Vandys and many people do not.
It is interesting for such a Vandy fan who proclaims to have three sets of them, not to always be mentioning your Quads, or Stages or Cornwalls, the only loudspeakers you keep on pushing religiously is Vandy remember your nice comment about any other non perfect piston loudspeaker being imperfect, and chasing our tails? guess that goes for the 1C, 2CE, 3A, the Treo, as they don't have perfectly pistonic drivers now do they?
Don’t need to read the LS 50’s white paper we have them and we have heard them compared to many other good loudspeakers.
Tney are way more transparent then a set of Vandy 1Cs, add a good subwoofer and you are good to go.
I have to add Doc that your persistence that long ago took a bounding leap crossing the line into obnoxiousness which in no way causes you to be chastened or embarrassed by unending criticism is in a very perverse way impressive.
Roxy it has nothing to do with us vs any other dealer.
We talk facts. We talk about opinions. To say one speaker is better than another is silly.
Which is better a BMW or a Mercedes?
We point out why we believe our products are competitive and a good value and why we carry those companies.
These discussions get nasty when someone makes a silly comment about why only one type of loudspeaker design is correct.
There are many valid loudspeaker designs which include time and phase aligned designs as well as non time and phase aligned designs.
You may prefer a Vandy that makes it better for that listener a guy who prefers a Wilson' a Magico Rockport or a Persona isnt wrong in there preference.
Dave. Being in this hobby for 50+ years, I can assure you I have listened to just about every brand on the planet. That includes the brands you carry. Won't go down your rabbit hole about set-up. Not gonna play that game with you.....My ears are every bit as good as yours.
Good for you Mr. M, please go and enjoy your loudspeakers
What we have found in 30 years of professional audio sales, as well as being an audiophile for 45 + years, that there is no universally correct product for everybody, therefore we sell multiple brands of loudspeakers, electronics and digital products.
And it is totally about setup we have seen good loudspeakers sound poor, and decent speakers sound great all depending on what you use with them, room acoustics, room size etc.
If you honestly don’t think that setup is everything Mr. M you are more than a novice. Changing a single cable can sometimes make a system come alive, same way with changing a dac or moving to a different set of electronics it is called synergy, and what sometimes works with one set of loudspeakers dosen’t work with another, sometimes changing a loudspeaker requires changing other things until you have the correct sound that you are looking for.
Beetlemania, do you honestly think that anyone who is such a fervent Vandy guy or the same with the Tekton guys is going to ever fairly evaluate any thing else?
To these guys it is like a religion, if you notice we don't say any of our speakers are better just different and how they compare and in some cases these products are half the price, which means in the case of the Kef Blades you can get an entire system just for the price of the Vandy 7s and by many reviewers accounts the Blade is in that uber class of high value for dollar reference loudspeakers along with the Persona and Legacy lines, the same can be said with some of the Focals and Rockports and Wilsons and Magicos, that are also in the $30k price range.
To Mr M and by his own pronouncements Vandy is the only speaker unless he is joking that is definatly not the approach that is lets say fully balanced. Vandy may be his best choice but if you notice we don't say that any product we are selling is the best choice only that is a valid choice for these reasons
We stated it simply there is no perfect product for everyone, and not everyone is going to like the same choices you have made or that you enjoy.
Also as stated setup is everything the wrong electronics, cabling, digital can make any speaker sound good or bad if you are not in agreement with that simple fact you are certainly a novice.
Dave. Of course I think setup is important. You just didn't read between the lines as to what I said. I have experimented A LOT with interconnects, speaker cables, various tweeks, etc, etc,. I could tell you what I have done, but true to your nature, you would have concluded that everything I had done was completely wrong. At least in your eye. Why on earth would I subject myself to your biased scrutiny???
By the way, I like a lot of different loudspeakers, amps, and source components. You also said months ago that the top Paradigm Persona Loudspeaker was beating pretty much any other loudspeaker system out there that you had listened to and that included models at twice the price according to you. Now tell me you're not trying to promote the "Perfect Product" for everyone.
Oh, by the way, do you pay for any personal ads in the audio mags? Just wondering...
Yes Tomic like you point out Treo ct perfect piston tweeter non pistonic midrange. I guess perfect piston technology for lesser models and having two completely different materials makes for a coherent presentation?
Also the Bryston you use are not time and phase aligned yet in your last statement you find every other speaker that is not time and phase aligned is also trash
So which is it? If you enjoy your Apogee Stage not time and phase aligned with Klipsch Corwalls not time and phase aligned you do like these other types of loudspeakers.
Effusive praise on the MBL loudspeakers they use a 4th order Linkweitz reily crossover.
I guess out of phase trash can sound pretty darn good after all and a set of MBL can therefore also further the illusion of real music as well.
You only are pointing out how a speaker (that you of course sell) is a better value than what another person asks about. Amazing how you always have a better value.
But, if the Tekton owners point out the same thing, they are in the wrong? I mean, really you point out how TeeJay loves the Coda 8 that you now push. Yet, he replaced his more expensive speakers with Tekton speakers he loves.
How about paying for an ad. Hopefully this wasn’t so harsh as to be deleted.
What is it? I can find reviews online right now by "pros" that literally tell you what speaker that was 4-5x the price of a Tekton that they replaced.
Audiotroy, You use the word "compete" as in meaning what? I can't read your mind. Does the word compete mean "almost as good", "Better than", or what? If I told you my Vandersteen Treo Ct's compete with the Persona 9H, which would be a fair analogy, what would you tell me? I know exactly what you would tell me, because awhile back you told me my Treo's weren't in the same league as the Persona's. And just because you don't remember, that doesn't mean it's not true.
Besides the Persona's, you only started mentioning those "other" speaker lines because enough people came out on the Persona threads and told you they weren't as great as you claim. I've had a lot of different loudspeaker systems over the years including several sets of Legacies. I have compared the Vandersteen's to many other speakers, and for me, they are MY loudspeaker of choice. Would I buy a different brand? Of course I would if I felt it outperformed the Vandy's in areas I thought critical. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.
By the way, you seem to spend a lot of time on the Audiogon forum. Do you find anytime to work at your store????
Yes Mr. M. your Vandy Treo's do compete with Persona 3F, they would not compete with the Persona 9H, the Vandy 5A and the 7 would, if you prefer a more holographic soundstage, deeper bass, and overall much greater clarity the Personas 3F will outperform the Treos.
The word compete simply means that it is in the same league, a $32k set of Blades or Persona 9H can both sound fantastic and can compete with the performance of the Vandy 7 which you prefer will come down to what you like and the matching equipment.
If you prefer a warmer midrange, a more recessed top end, and a more defusive sound stage then the Treo's will be for you.
We prefer a much more transparent speaker and we find a huge advantage in having the tweeter and midrange drivers made out of the same material vs the Aluminium tweeter and composite trilaminate cone of the Treo,s or the Balsa wood CT tweeter and the composite trilaminate cone of the Treo CT.
You would say bright upon hearing the 3F,we would listen to your Treo's and go dull.
It comes down to personal prefererence, system matching and what you find musical.
I find your honesty refereshing "Would I buy a different brand? Of course I would if I felt it outperformed the Vandy's in areas I thought critical. But I don't see that happening anytime soon."
Personally Mr. M. we could name a few speakers some which we sell and some which we don't that you might just like a lot better than your Vandys.
Please enjoy your Vandys they are great speakers for many listners just the same way that Legacy and Personas, Focals, Wilsons, Rockports are great speakers for many others.
Dave and Troy
Mr. M. my computer is right in front of Reference demo Room One it is very easy to type out a retort while listening.
You might just want to hear one of our setups if you are in our neck of the woods to see for yourself just how good some of our products may sound to you, howerver, we doubt you would take us up on that offer.
I bought the stages becuase while they can sound good on certain material, I really wanted to understand how a flat panel with edge clamping stores and releases energy. I have a pretty good grip on that...there are about 2 octaves where they are magic. I bet most Apogee owners love the product even today.
I bought the Cornwalls initially as garage rockers but liked a few things they did with VERY low power, modified the crap out of them and yet......but I know what horns sound like. they have impact and drive and i understand the colorations......
BTW I was lugging a stacked pair of LaScala around for a band PA when you were doing what in 1978 ?
Yes the big petal metallic MBL driver is a wonder driven by a REAL amplifier like an AMS-100 which makes a Krell look toylike...on certain multitrack material with honked up spatial info or a BIg symphonic peice in a VERY large room they can provide a massive soundscape and do percussion, bells, etc very well.....in spite of the filter...RIP the great engineer whominvented that steep slope... the science of how people is important....you trade away time information for frequency response.....ask the cruciak question...can I have both.....it is very hard work, but the answer is yes.......
lets see, the Bryston do have steep slopes...I really dont care about the choral group hearing image....they are spread out on the stands w performaing shell as a big reflector...I do care about getting them excited to hear near instant feedback....which they enjoy....IF i was really a true Vandersteen zealot as you say, i would replace them wuth the VLR........now that you poked me, maybe I will do that.....with a bit of luck the chorale director will cut the reflector size in half.....( it is just a cheap horn.... )
I suspect you are not a Stax dealer either....when I do lend them these....well, they GASP !!! as they should...
the Thiels, ancient as they are...are very musical....check out Jafant’s fantastic Thiel thread right here, something like 5k posts, not a lot of selling going on...I see music and Thiel lovers....ah, so good....
reread, the white paper the LS 50 is just a slightly different flavor than the esteemed 101 aka LS3/5a...oh with worse bass....
the Quad ESL63...... a 2 way with delay lines to emulate a point source......Peter Walker a real genius, not prone to buying off the shelf AMT drivers and outsourcing to China....RIP good man...
you might do well to study the 63...... I am rebuilding my pair so I have witheld judgements...but I sold a bunch of them in the 80’s....the concentric delay lines do not fix the edge clamming, dustcover and other issues..
I actually dont believe a Vandersteen is perfect either, you flubbed the shot at the 1c that has been replaced by the changed and improved 1ci...
since 1977 learning and improving...
and finally, the TREO tweeter is carbon fiber the midrange is trilaminate carbon fiber..woven ....coherence is not derived from the exact same material because the frequency and breakup modes changes, again.....perhaps reading and study will help you...unless you get hip with the science and the listening, you are just a baskin robbins flavor pusher....
the reality is you have a Vandydealer a few miles away and the heat of competition clouds your thinking....
Gee Dense Tomic nice of you to say, by the way read all the Kef white papers you should read the one on the Kef Blade and Kef reference lines.
As per what I was doing in 1978, I was working at an audio store under the table at age 13 by the way, so while you were playing Roadie I was actually selling consumer electronics.
As per Quads, owned the Quad 63, as well as Quad US monitors, with dual Entecs, owned Quads for a total of eight years and setup a pair of modified Crosby Quads was doing that in my 20’s how old were you when you got your first high end rig?
Also in my mid 20s started working at Sound by Singer, who was one of the top audio dealers in the country with 10 sound rooms and almost every major brand of audio gear on display while at College was assistant manger at a college High Fi Store.
The Quads don’t sound anything like live music, they have restricted dyanmics, an unfocused image, and a missing top end and bass, they have fantastic midrange that is about it ever wonder why Quad ELS basically disapeared from the market?
Also loudspeaker design 101 a large surface causes diffraction, and even with Peter Walkers delay lines and creating a ripple you still have frequencies bouncing off the total surface of the radiator, hence the large and unfocused image. but hey how many high end speakers imaged with precision in the mid 80’s.
Bought my pair from KJ Leisursound in 1988 when the pound went to near parirty to the dollar.
Moved from the Quads to the Wilson Watt Puppy which sounded so much more like the sound of a live music, perfect they were not, visceral, dynamic, with a much better sense of image placement.
As per your crack on the Legacy’s AMT, they are German made Heil drivers not sourced from China, the midrange driver is silk and graphite made in Italy for Legacy, the crossovers use all top quality parts, in a very well damped cabinet, should get your facts straight.
Lastly the Treo CT uses the Balsa composite tweeter, with a tri laminate midrange driver, these are not the same materials, a carbon fiber dome will be a harder material with greater speed then a woven carbon fiber driver, woven carbon fiber is Kevlar isn’t it and woven carbon fiber has been superseeded by better materials wittness B&W newer Continum cones which are far stiffer than their earlier cones.
Lets talk midrange colorations, shall we, plastics all have a sound which is intrinsically soft. The same way that metal drivers also tend to ring but produce a sound much closer to the real instrument in terms of clarity and over tones.
Metal drivers and ceramics have been getting better and better, lighter stiffer materials push up breakup modes, and Beryillium is uniquely prized by its ability to be self damped due to its extreme stiffness and light weight.
As per coherency most high end manufactuers try where ever possible to use the exact same material for every driver as much as possible if you look at Rockport, Magico, Vivid, Kef, Paradigm.
The ear is especially sensitive in transitions between the tweeter and the midrange. the fact that according to your previous arugments all drivers have to be perfectly pistonic and the Treo CT’s midrange driver is not.
Lets just say we both have a lot of experience in this arena, you are not going to change each others minds.
And we used to sell Thiels an ancient pair of Theils are not not close, the CS 3.7 was a great speaker but would be outclassed by the much newer driver technology of the Kef Blades.
Having a Vandy dealer has nothing to do with it, we like Vandys up to a point, remember used to sell them at SBS, and know the speakers well, they were truly fantastic in the 90’s today there are speakers which sound amazing to compete with them in sleeker more WAF friendly designs.
We are very happy with our Legacy’s which are somewhat tuned sonically like the Vandys, we are also quite happy with the sound quality of the Paradigm’s and Kefs, heck we love our ATC and Quads so it isn’t that we can’t sell Vandy’s we don’t want to we have more than enough great speakers.
You should hear a set of Quad Z4 carbon fiber midrange and woofers, wed to an amazing ribbon tweeter so special.
I've heard the Kef and it's a great speaker. Wonderful really. But if you have the money go with the Vandersteen 7. It's one of those if only I were a lottery winner speakers. Pure magic.
well we certainly both worked for a living...I was no 13 year old child prodigy....I still have the MC240 and MX110 Z that showed up at our house in 1965....
we sold Wilson...and Quad, and Acoustat, and Kef, and Infinity, and Beveridge, and Vandersteen, and ADs, Gale, KEF, a line of kits w custome filters, etc....we made do with a 8 showroom Brownstone, 3 stories...for a time Pasquale Grado lived upstairs, until we converted his flat into another soundroom...
but, I went on to do other things....like run perhaps the largest advanced technology composite shops and development labs on the planet..think B2, F-22, 787...... easy stuff..
which is why I know that Kevlar is just one kind of carbon fiber....
my AMT comment was plainly aimed at Quad, not Legacy...a brand I think is quite fine. Quad , like the new Thiel has strayed far from the garden...so to speak...I use the ESl-63 and will use them for a midrange reference, one of many...yes we worship in many tents..
now, I think I understand you associate phase with time and phase correct. The out of phase behavior we are talking about w pistonic drivers is due to breakup modes in the driver, which is different than a filter which w steep slopes shifts phase.
So cone breakup in or near the passband is 100% trash and distortion...which is why the German company developed the laser scanner - not to help Just vandersteen but to help anyone seeking the truth about just what the cone is doing....
well, I am off to pattern a Turkey shotgun....no kevlar in the stock....
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