Don't mean to crash the party, but I just wanted to add that I've put a DSP8024 between my preamp and the power amp bass channels in a biwired & biamped system with ML Aerius i's, and it works a treat for correcting my room's 80Hz resonance with -6db correction. Since my preamp has two pairs of outputs and the DSP8024 doesn't touch anything over 400Hz, I'm not worried about signal degradation - midrange & treble remain pristine.
The auto mic gain sets to +80db for Auto EQ even when the pink noise level is set to -32db, which is not loud but well above ambient noise. Not sure if this is relevant to the discussion about the DEQ2496. There is no auto level for pink noise on the DSP8024, and there is no indication in the manual or on any display regarding the appropriate pink noise or mic gain level. Still, it seems to work well. |
Tvad...The clipping when digital data from a 16 bit CD is input to the 24 bit DEQ2496 is certainly unexpected. Perhaps Behringer can tell us how they load 16 bit data into their 24 bit machine. If it is truly the input that clips I suspect that the CD itself is the culprit.
In the making of prerecorded mag tapes recording engineers were prone to cranking up the level until a "little" clipping occured, so as to mask tape noise. Perhaps they are still thinking that a little clipping is OK. |
The longer you have it and the more you use it, you will eventually become very comfortable with what it offers.
Smeyers (Threads | Answers) I am certain that is true, however the result will be based on trial and error rather than being based on knowledge of the basics of sound processing. It's like learning to fly a plane by taking off and experiencing what the stick and pedals do rather than understanding aerodynamics and the basics of flight. |
"One has to have a background in sound processing, or have a good tutorial to properly take advantage of the
Behringer, IMO."
The longer you have it and the more you use it, you will eventually become very comfortable with what it offers. I was also a bit initimated when I got it, but now feel fairly proficient in its use, and have been able to coax it to due just what I need for it to do. |
07-06-06: Eldartford
Tvad...I still suspect that your clipping is internal to the DEQ2496 (clip limiter) as a result of equalization. A 16 bit digital word input really can't saturate a 24 bit D/A unless your processing has led to an output of more than 16 bits.
If this is the case output attenuation should resolve the problem.
I have not used the digital input because my multichannel discs don't provide anything but analog.
Eldartford (Reviews | Threads | Answers)
The output is not clipping, as would be the case if the DEQ2496 clip limiter was activated by over-boosting frequencies in the GEQ. I don't have any frequencies boosted very high, but perhaps later tonight I'll really jack up the 20hz band to see if the clipping is affected. In any case, if boosting frequencies causes clipping when using the optical input, this mitigates the usefulness of the DEQ2496, since boosting is required in addition to attenuation. I have attenuated the output, and thus far this does nothing to change the clipping when the optical digital input is selected. Nevertheless, this unit is fairly sophisticated to use, and I don't claim to know 15% of it's functions. One has to have a background in sound processing, or have a good tutorial to properly take advantage of the Behringer, IMO. |
Tvad...I still suspect that your clipping is internal to the DEQ2496 (clip limiter) as a result of equalization. A 16 bit digital word input really can't saturate a 24 bit D/A unless your processing has led to an output of more than 16 bits.
If this is the case output attenuation should resolve the problem.
I have not used the digital input because my multichannel discs don't provide anything but analog. |
07-06-06: Zapper
I am having the problem of the input being to high as well. It is optical out of a Philips DVD player.
Yup. Me too. The issue here is that the DEQ2496 is a pro audio tool, and pro source equipment has adjustable output gain whereas consumer units do not. In a pro audio setting, it would be easy to adjust the source output so the DEQ2496 input level was not clipping. |
I am having the problem of the input being to high as well. It is optical out of a Philips DVD player. I had to turn the Gain Offset in the Utility page down to -10 before the clip was not going off all the time. Is there a way to adjust the input, or is this what you need to do? |
I should add, regarding the DAC, that the DEQ2496 sounds pretty good when used as an EQ with an analog signal as the input source via the balanced inputs. It's when I plug a CD player into it via toslink that things sounds mechanical. That is also when the input signal shows clipping on the meters. So, it's not clear to me if it's the DAC that sounds crummy, or if the input level being too high is the cause of the sound issues. However, since the input signal doesn't ride in the red, I lean toward the DAC as the problem. |
Zapper, turn up the mic sensitivity in the utilities menu. Tvad is right, you don't need a blasting signal, but if your mic is set too low, it won't "hear" the pink noise. |
"While I appreciate the EQ features of the DEQ2496, thus far the DAC sounds mechanical, sterile, and unmusical in my opinion."
I also think the DACS are not very good in the unit. IMO the unit is very transparent if kept in the digital domain and output to a good external DAC (I use a Muse 296), but just doesn't really cut it using its internal DACS. When I got the Muse, I was able to quicly A/B both DACS, and there was a very(!) large difference. |
Have your pink noise gain level set to -10db, and turn down the volume on your preamp. The DEQ2496 reacts to the pink noise vs. ambient noise ratio, and this has no bearing on the volume of the pink noise you hear in the room. Obviously, you need to hear the pink noise, but the mic is sensitive, and will easily work with 80db of volume in the room. Try it and let us know what happens. |
I am having the "Noise to Ambient Ratio Too Low, Turn up Pink Noise Level" message when running the auto-eq. I have the level between -20 and -15, which is really loud when the pink noise is being analyzed. When I turn it up past the -10 level, it seems to work but is very loud, is this the way, or is something else wrong? My roo is dead quite, and the house is in the country, no outside noise. |
No mods on this unit for me. I draw the line at $350. What it does for that price is fine with me, and I don't require it's DAC to be world class (or even good) to make the unit worth the price of admission. |
Tvad...Unmusical? Check out RAM mods for the DEQ2496. |
Thanks, Eldartford.
While I appreciate the EQ features of the DEQ2496, thus far the DAC sounds mechanical, sterile, and unmusical in my opinion.
FWIW. |
As I understand it, you are lighting up the red LED while using the digital input. The digital data is as it comes straight off the disc, so there is no way to attenuate it. I assume that the MSB of the 16 bit CD word is treated as the MSB of the 24 bit word in the DEQ2496. True clipping will only occur if all the lower order bits are set as well as this MSB. If the digital input clips it means that the CD data was already clipped (but you never has an indicator to tell you this).
The red LED also lights if the CLIP Limiter inside the DEQ2496 activates, and that might happen due to your equalization when the input is near, but not quite exceeding the maximum. The CLIP Limiter threshold is permanently set at 0dB, but there are some parameters of the limiter that you could play with. Check the manual. |
06-30-06: Smeyers
You can reduce the gain in the Utility Menu using the Gain Offset parameter. I have mine set to -2db. Thank you for that info. I did try that earlier, but adjusting the Gain Offset does not affect the gain of the input signal, it only affects the output signal. It's the input signal that's giving me the issue, and unfortunately, I cannot adjust the output level of my source as is common on professional gear. Do high end transports like Wadia offer output gain adjustments? I've never heard of this. Odd, since it's so common on studio gear. I do hear problems caused by the clipping. |
You can reduce the gain in the Utility Menu using the Gain Offset parameter. I have mine set to -2db. When I spoke to the Beheringer folks about the high input levels, they mentioned that it's Ok if the level goes slightly into the red zone as long as it's very brief. I would agree with that in terms of my listening experience, as I don't hear clipping artifacts unless the levels are significantly into the red. |
Gentlemen, I have run the Auto EQ in the RTA module, and I can clearly hear the benefits of the DEQ2496. Today, I connected my Sony CD changer to the DEQ2496 via the optical digital in and I selected the Optical In as the input on the I/O selector. The levels are running into clipping. I haven't found an overall gain adjustment. What's the solution? |
Shadorne...I have noted that while it may take a lot of effort to get it figured out, once you do that it is easy to use. |
I don't know the DEQ2496 but the Feedback Destroyer Pro took me a while to figure out. The PEQ gain and frequncy settings were obvious but the Q filter widths....well I had to use a calculator to work out what it all meant in terms of Hz so that I could plot out my corrections on a log DB vs linear frequency plot...
Pilot error may be linked to the fact that it does not indicate what settings have been programmed in ....you have to run through each filter to see what has been set.
but for the price....I'm not complaining! This machine is great! |
06-22-06: Eldartford
Drubin...I agree. I think that the problem is partly due to the manual being a translation from German, but mostly because it is written for pro sound people who are pretty savy, and explanations which would be helpful for the average audiophile are omitted. Precisely. Behringer appears to assume the majority of users are already proficient with how to shape sound, and users know how the adjustment parameters function. The manual basically explains which modules/button operate the various parameters. Now I fully understand Drubin's desire for "DEQ2496 for Dummies". To fully understand the capabilities of this unit, I believe one needs a course in professional sound production. BTW, it seems to me the DYN module might provide the ideal EQ scenario for "recognizing" and attenuating typically offensive frequencies in a fluid manner...i.e. those frequencies responsible for "hard" sounding piano, or "honky" saxophone or "brassy" trumpet. Just a hunch. |
Drubin...I agree. I think that the problem is partly due to the manual being a translation from German, but mostly because it is written for pro sound people who are pretty savy, and explanations which would be helpful for the average audiophile are omitted. Also, the darned thing does so many things, and with so many options that writing a good manual would be a real challenge. |
In my experience, the Behringer tends to induce a lot of pilot error. |
I believe I tracked down the problem, and it was not with the DEQ2496. It was, of course, pilot error.
Thank you for flying Tvad Airlines. |
Tvad..."betweeen 3db and 1 db depending on the recording". If you are looking at a stereo recording it is normal for the two channels to be different. To determine if the Behringer channel gains differ you need a mono CD (or a test CD like the one Dennon makes).
When I said that 3dB would be faulty electronics what I am suggesting is that some setup or EQ condition must be causing the inequality because circuitry is never that bad.
When you say that the inequality is measured at the input this suggests that it isn't in the Behringer.
What levels are you seeing on the green LEDs?
Are you having fun yet? |
Gain in DEQ is/was set to 0.0. Thanks for the suggestion. |
When in DEQ mode, if you push the top small dial you go into a full spectrum gain mode. Tvad, is it possible you accidently raised the left gain when you were in dual mono mode? I think it would carry the imbalance on through when you switched back to stereo link mode in the utilities. |
06-21-06: Eldartford
Tvad...How do you measure the imbalance? Did you create it by your EQ curve? 3 dB would be a fault condition for the electronics.
Imbalance is measured by the DEQ2496 meter...measuring both the input and output. My EQ is in stereo mode, so there should be no difference between left and right. What do you mean 3db would be a fault condition for the electronics? BTW, the imbalance has been betweeen 3db and 1 db depending on the recording. I may swap the interconnects to see if the imbalance follows the interconnect swap. It might be traceable to the preamp tape outputs, but only a test will determine this. I'll also go back into a previous memory preset and check the levels. Obviously, if they're not the same from preset to preset, then it points to pilot error. |
Tvad...How do you measure the imbalance? Did you create it by your EQ curve? 3 dB would be a fault condition for the electronics. |
It does have an expander.
My latest observation is a channel imbalance which favors the left channel by 1-3db with the DEQ enabled. There is no channel imbalance with the tape loop bypassed (DEQ2496 is in the tape loop). |
Does the DEQ2496 have an expander?
This might interest me given that most CD's are intentionally mastered with 1 to 3 db of added compression compared to the studio mix. Unfortunately a lot more compression is often used (especially on rock) to achieve a "loud" CD, where the artist simply wants it to sound louder than other CD's. |
Perhaps it drives both channels for the measurement. Is that so? (Now it's your turn to be the Behringer expert!) That's correct.
BTW....why do cheap car stereos systems often sound pretty amazing.....it is actually very simple, two words....Soffit Mounting.
And compression built into the electronics...something the DEQ2496 offers. That's a module I plan to investigate once a few of my balls have dropped. :) |
Warnerwh,
That link you gave is very good advice. Could not agree more with the authors criticism of many speaker designs.
I would only add that even if serious room acoustic treatments can be disappointingly ineffective for very low frequencies.....Soffit mounting of speakers is well known to be effective (by professionals).
There is a good reason for soffit mounting....it eliminates the problem of omni-directional bass frequencies which radiate towards the wall behind the speakers creating havoc with quarter wavelength cancellations. (The wall behind the speakers has the single biggest effect on the bass sound in a room as it creates the biggest coherent reflection....the second biggest issue is the wall behind your listening position...third are side wall reflections in mid and upper frequency ranges)
BTW....why do cheap car stereos systems often sound pretty amazing.....it is actually very simple, two words....Soffit Mounting.
BTW...why all the recent interest in bass traps....more speakers on the market that are nearly flat anechoically to 20 Hz, which radiate in all directions in the bass and play havoc with room modes...
For those who think it was as simple as buying a speaker flat 20 Hz to 20 Khz...do some research! |
Tvad...I never tried the stereo autoEQ. My impression is that it just transfers results measured for one channel to the other one. That doesn't sound right to me. Perhaps it drives both channels for the measurement. Is that so? (Now it's your turn to be the Behringer expert!)
Smooth, rather than flat is the most important thing about bass response, and the flat autoEQ will give you this, so it is a good starting point. Your tweeking to achieve a frequency response that sound good to you can be done when you set up the target curve for the autoEQ. Many people find that they like different curves for different types of music, and the Behringer memory feature accomodates this. |
Thank you for the link, Warnerwh. I have several balls in the air at the moment, but I will take a look at the link in the next few days.
I am aware that bass tweaking is extremely important, and this is where I've been focusing much of my attention. |
If you use auto eq be sure to input your own curve. Here's an excellent article regarding how to adjust eq written for the DEQ 2496:
http://www.prijsindex.net/tmp/room%20acoustics%20and%20eq.html
The one Behringer gives as a default is not very good imo. Also you have to learn how to adjust the bass. The bass is critical and will affect the entire presentation.
Most important though is to learn what affects what. It takes some time to do this well. Fortunately you have plenty of latitude on adjustments. |
Funny you say that Tvad, the first time I AEQ'd I thought it sounded like crap too. I really don't know what I did, but the last time I tried it, it sounded MUCH better. Anyway, I also ended up tweaking. |
OK, so I've done the Auto EQ in both stereo and dual mono (2 channels), and I much prefer the results using stereo mode. Frankly, the results in dual mono just sounded plain bad.
So, I'm using the stereo Auto EQ results as a baseline, and I'm tweaking from there, as I wasn't all that crazy with those results either.
I remember reading in the Audio Control manual, which is one of the best and most entertaining manuals I've ever read, the author wrote that after the user spends significant time getting a flat frequency curve, the user will likely find that the sound sucks...and the tweaking will commence.
That author was correct, IMO. |
Tvad...I do each of my five channels separately (I have three DEQ2496). The EQ curves for the five speakers are quite different, although they are identical models. |
I've got it working. As is always the case, these things come down to pilot error.
Do you all recommend doing RTA/Auto EQ in stereo mode or dual mono? |
I have set the noise gain, and the +15 volt condernser mic according to the manual. The mic is at the listening position. |
06-20-06: Eldartford
Tvad...You don't need to select the noise as input. Doing the EQ thing automatically turns it on. The input for EQ is the mic (obviously).
OK. Regardless, when I initiate the Auto EQ sequence, the DEQ2496 gives me a warning that the pink noise ambient level is too low, and no measurement is taking place. It's as if the mic is not plugged in. |
There is a noise gain on the smaller dials. There is also a RTA mic input level in the utilities menu, mine is set to +15 volts. Be sure to place your mic as closely as possible to where your ears would be when you are in your listening seat.
I can't wait to hear what you think of the room correction. |
Tvad...You don't need to select the noise as input. Doing the EQ thing automatically turns it on. The input for EQ is the mic (obviously). |
06-20-06: Eldartford
Both inputs can be hooked up. You select which to use via the I/O screen. Gotcha. Trying to use the RTA. Mic is connected, and selected at the I/O screen. Pink noise is selected as the source input signal. Auto is selected at the AEQ screen, as is Room Correction. When I hit the start button, and when the Pink Noise starts, it's plenty loud in my room, but there's no signal being picked up (I get a warning that the pink noise level is too low.) Help, please. |
Both inputs can be hooked up. You select which to use via the I/O screen. |
You will have to choose your input path. I believe you will output analog and digital simultaneously no matter which input you choose. By the way what do you think of the DACs? |
Gentlemen, I was planning to experiment with the DEQ2496's DAC, and also use it in the Tape Loop, but it appears this is not possible? Am I reading the instructions wrong? My understanding at the moment is that one input can only be selected, and therefore I have to choose between the SPIDF (from my transport) or the Analog Inputs (from my preamp). |
