The problem is one that a number of cable makers suffer from. I preface my remarks by noting this not a problem that is exclusive to Synergistic Research. I use SR as an example because I am more familiar with their cables than with the cables of other companies that have the same problem.
The problem is the cost of incremental improvements. SR makes some great products. But, in spite of their copy writing, not all SR products are great, IMO. Some SR products have made great improvements in my system -- like the Tesla SE Hologram D power cord. That having been said, in retrospect, despite the bally-hoo that surrounds SR product launches, most of their products have brought no more than incremental improvements to my system. Products from other cable companies have brought equal or greater improvements for me -- often at much lower cost.
The problem is that SR has such fast-paced marketing with products coming out at a gallop supplanting recently released products -- such as the SR line of PowerCell conditioners -- that I sometimes feel I have been left in the dust.
We cannot stop the relentless march of technology. But at the high price of most of SR's offerings one is often left with sense of being left out instead of left in when new products come on the heels of products one has just purchased. The SR trade-up program does not remedy this problem at all, IMO.
There are many other cable companies without fast-paced marketing that provide equal or better value for the money, IMO. Companies like Bybee, HiDiamond and Cardas. I am probably not the only one who feels as I do about SR and other companies with fast-paced marketing.
Flashunlock, What you characterize as moaning is a thread that was initiated to elicit ideas and opinions. And it has done just that. I am certainly not the only person who feels as I do.You may note that there are others besides me who have expressed themselves in this thread in a manner that is contrary to your opinions. Nevertheless, you have the perfect right to hold and express your opinions -- as everyone does.
I would not presume to tell you that others are tired of listening to you and that you should shove off. We may not always like what we read here. That's the way life is on the forums. No one is forced to read threads and opinions they do not want to read. If we all conformed to certain ideas this would be a very boring place to visit.
I don't believe we need to walk on egg shells worrying about SR or other manufacturers when we express our opinions in these threads. Ted Denney and others are very capable of defending themselves and of rebutting statements that they feel are inaccurate. Many manufacturers take the opportunity to do so here. As it should be.
Neither you nor I know what affect this may actually have on SR or other companies. If it gets them thinking about these matters, that is a step in the right direction, IMO.
True as it may seem but you are a very busy man here on the Audiogon forum. If you read back on this thread I have also posted that I agree with you in some ways but come on..... this has been long and your opinion/points has been put acrossed. IMO, SR will not change their policies just because you are moaning and that is exactly what you are doing. My recommendation is to listen to more music and less time spent hitting the keys. Enjoy what you have that were great upgrades yesterday and if you feel the need to do so again then buy carefully in your case. I too have purchased many Hi-Fi equipment/ cables/ tweaks blind because I'm also across the world and if I get it wrong then I'll sell them and if I have bought them too expensive then thats life and bad luck. If one moans for every bad judgement that they make or come across your situation, one should just give it all up because you know what, sometimes all of these are learning curves and in a way makes it fun.
Ted has welcomed you to contact him to resolve any issues so why not take up his offer instead of constantly posting here which ultimately will not do you or Ted any favours IMO.
Flashunlock, Please note that I initiated this thread and the topic is The Problem with Synergistic Research -- but not exclusive to SR. Also, please note that not everyone who has posted on this thread may agree with you -- according to how they have responded here. You have the perfect right to your opinions.
This is not an urban pedestrian sidewalk where a disturbance has been caused and where the local constabulary comes by to bring order to the scene. I am merely a poster on Audiogon eliciting ideas. With all due respect, those who find this thread disturbing may easily avoid reading the posts here -- and they can easily move on to threads that do not disturb them.
Sabai.... It is now getting very boring indeed. You sound like a persistent parrot. I'm sure everyone here gets your message regarding SR's policy. Move on if you don't like what they do.
Regarding SR's trade-up policy, it is clearly a good deal for those who have the cash and who want to purchase more than one new SR product. But it puts those on a modest budget in a bind.
Firstly, when SR brings out a new product to replace a current product the latter has already depreciated in value by a significant amount due to the new product being introduced. OK, this is normal. But then SR requires you to purchase a product twice the value of the one you want to trade-up for.
So, for instance, if you want to purchase the latest version of the PowerCell, you have to purchase $10,000 in SR products to take advantage of the SR trade-up program. Well, that's a lot of money for many of us. And what if the PowerCell is the only product you wish to purchase? You are left with having to sell your PowerCell off on the glutted aftermarket where the price of PowerCells has dropped drastically.
You are lucky to get much more than $2000 for a used PowerCell these days on Audiogon. But you are better off in the end because if you do get $2500 for your PowerCell you have to come up with $2500 for the new PowerCell instead of $6500 with SR. In the end, unless you are really hot on a new SR product besides the PowerCell, you are much better off not going the trade-up route. It is no gift to customers of modest means.
SR might want to consider two options to make their policy user friendly to audiophiles of modest means. They could introduce an upgrade policy for some of their products such as the PowerCell. They could formulate a policy that does not require the purchase of a product that is fully double the price of the new product a customer wishes to purchase.
In the end, a more "understanding" policy would end up being be a win-win situation. It would not be as profitable for SR but it would come back to them in volume to make up for the lower mark-up. Most importantly, it would sow the seeds of goodwill. This act of generosity would be appreciated by many audiophiles and would end up bringing many happy customers to SR that they would not otherwise have seen. And, over time, the results would naturally be compounded.
I've read this post's development with a bit of bafflement. Sabai, I get your desire for the best trade-in, price structure, customer service, etc. We all want that for every product we buy, don't we? However, in the end, every business owner has to to balance his customer's wish lists against market realities and the need to make a decent profit. If they get the balance right, the customers stay happy and the business thrives. If not, the competitive nature of the market place will weed out those guilty of constant miscalculation. I think Sabai has more than amply made his points of contention clear and if sufficient numbers of other customers feel the same way, Mr. Denney would need adjust his business practices. If sufficient numbers remain happy with SR products and pricing, Sabai's just going to have to buck up and accept he's been left behind.
I feel sorry for myself sometimes that I can't always get what I want, then I throw the switch and end up being thankful for what I have (usually).
It happens often when I watch "House Hunters" on HGTV and realize I probably cannot afford that gorgeous beachfront property in the Caribbean. Maybe my 10 year old daughter who is that shows biggest fan will be able to someday....
Onhwy61, With all due respect, I believe you have misunderstood. This thread is about getting the best possible value for your audio dollar. I feel many high end audio companies are in the process of pricing themselves out of the ballpark for audiophiles who are in the "modest budget" category -- people like me who are not high rollers. This thread was initiated to stimulate discussion about the ramifications of various issues around this central issue. It was not initiated to elicit pity. You may be one of the very fortunate who does not have to worry about budget concerns when purchasing their equipment.
Knghifi, With all due respect, you are now addressing your comments to Joncourage and Mapman as well.
Mcondon, You stated "When is Audiogon going to kill this thread? All this bad press is going to hinder SR's ability to separate fools from their money."
I think this thread has brought out a number of salient points -- and it sounds like some others agree. I think this can only be good for SR because they are a great company with some great products. IMO they need some encouragement to develop more user-friendly policies. This lively discussion may stimulate some movement in that direction.
Facten, You state "I don't think that anything any vendor would do would satisfy Sabai". This is a very broad statement, would you not agree? It opens the door to a broad response.
With all due respect, there have been many vendors that have more that satisfied me over the years. Among them are Merlin, HiDiamond, AMR, Bybee, Cardas, Oyaide and, yes, Synergistic Research. The points I am making only relate to part of my interaction with SR over the years. I have never had a single problem with their customer service. It has been exemplary in my case. And I have been very happy with quite a few of their products -- but not all. It is their trade-up policy and other related matters discussed in earlier posts that I have brought up for discussion.
What I dont understand in this story is : Why would anyone spend time and money sending an interconnect back and forth from the manufacturer to simply solder a connection. Any competent local technician could do the job in less than 2 minutes and probably would not even charge. I am surprised that even with no warranty, that a cable manufacturer would not simply take a few minutes to fix the joint. I also note that the author also mentions making home made cables in other threads, therefore it seems odd that he wouldn't just fix it himself. I can only surmise that there may be more to this story than the author is saying. or the whole story is pure bunkum.
Ted Denney did not get his PhD in audio cable physics to fix his masterworks for free. Time is money, and when not in the "lab", Ted needs spare time to dig up old posts written by naysayers like Sabai. If you don't like him or SR or snake oil, you must be a Democrat. (I gather that is what Knghifi and Glory are trying to say in their barely literate political commentary.)
When is Audiogon going to kill this thread? All this bad press is going to hinder SR's ability to separate fools from their money.
Send me an email to NasaMan11006@yahoo.com and allow me to reply with the pics and then lets view it together. I just want to share it with you all, nothing more. Yes, the cable was a 6y old, but I was the first one cutting off the S.Rs PRINTED heat shrink to shockingly discover what under neat. This could possibly happen to yours too. I doubt in 100 years that SRs will mail out, give away, or sell their logo/ SN printed heat shrinks to any consumers.
What'd you think if this missing soldering process happens to 1 of your highly regard high-end fav cable?
In this HIGH END cable business, if the soldering step missed, its a VERY big thing. A VERY big mistake. If the company makes this mistake, the company fixes the mistake at any cost, period. And I gave SR that chance.
Remember, SR was my fav cable company, I wouldn't go this far just to hurt them. Not to mention this matter already happened back in Jan.,5 months ago. Im not bashing S.R. but, as the title of this thread, The Problem with S.R, I share mine.
For those who feel that SR should repair these old used cables for free, not to mention covering the return shipping, imagine how you would feel if you were expected to work for free. When the shoe is on the other foot your perspective changes quickly.
Sabai, You've gotta be kidding me. Nasaman buys a 6+ years old IC off Ebay with UNDOCUMENTED number of owners, history, traveled the world several times and probably the IC you used in a SERIES with your bungee cord and jump rope and you want it repair under warranty??
There's an inherent danger in purchasing used to save a few bucks. I think it's REASONABLE that SR will only charge $50 for the repair.
I tend to think about these things in a manner similar to Sabai.
It's amazing to me that especially in these days of a rough economy, the internet, free information flow, etc. that more do not go out of the way a bit in the interest of good customer relations. Companies that tend to do best over the long term tend to do this kind of thing better I believe.
Fplanner2010, Gloria, Knghifi, I feel you're being a bit unkind here. I don't think it would have cost much for SR to do this repair and the goodwill extended would have come back to them -- whereas now they have to deal with bad publicity that may be worth a lot more than the very small sum of $50.
You see, it does not much matter who was right about this. I can understand SR sticking to the letter of the law. But by going the extra few yards they could have had a win-win situation instead of having a lose-lose situation. A little graciousness and generosity can go a long way in the high end audio business. IMO.
There are people who have gone the extra few yards for me in audio. I appreciate it very much and I always have a good word to say about them -- even if things were not 100%. They deserve a good word. Those who have not done business with me in the same way are written up differently.
Regarding SR, they get top marks from me for customer service. But as for policies and some other matters referred to earlier, they still have some work to do. IMO.
06-19-12: Fplanner2010 John - I totally see their point. Your comment:
"This is a high-end business with cables that cost up to 10 of thousands, I thought theyd do more critical testing and verifying before shipping them out rather than just ohm out for continuity check."
You have no idea at all what was done to these cables, nor probably does Mike, who's a pretty sharp guy. His points are all totally valid and if you choose to make this a reason for not using SR cables, that's of course your right, but in this case, it seems like it is also your loss.
Nobody is perfect and the fact that both you and the prior owner(s) were happy for 6 years pretty much kills your argument. Nobody was "cheated" here - you got the performance you paid for on the secondhand market. The fact you wouldn't spend only $50. to have the cable "repaired" also speaks volumes. Sorry - I side with them. Fplanner2010 (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
I TOTALLY agree. We are human so the BEST QC will not catch all the problems. I had a bad XLR IC connector and PC with a short that trip the circuit breaker once plug into the wall outlet. Both from different excellent manufacturers and bought new so repaired under warranty.
I can understand why most manufacturers only honer warranty for orig owner. Who knows how many prior owners and how it was used. If both + and - are NEVER soldered, how did it worked consistently for 6+ years?
IMO, it's a bargain if they're willing to fix it for $50. Nasaman, I guess you got what you paid for.
"This is a high-end business with cables that cost up to 10 of thousands, I thought theyd do more critical testing and verifying before shipping them out rather than just ohm out for continuity check."
You have no idea at all what was done to these cables, nor probably does Mike, who's a pretty sharp guy. His points are all totally valid and if you choose to make this a reason for not using SR cables, that's of course your right, but in this case, it seems like it is also your loss.
Nobody is perfect and the fact that both you and the prior owner(s) were happy for 6 years pretty much kills your argument. Nobody was "cheated" here - you got the performance you paid for on the secondhand market. The fact you wouldn't spend only $50. to have the cable "repaired" also speaks volumes. Sorry - I side with them.
Dover, With all due respect, on the contrary. The cables in my system are the cardiovascular system of the system. When the series is well chosen it brings the perfect synergy. Everything falls into place in terms of the continuity and the naturalness of the sound. There is no explaining this except that the ears know this to be true. It is never a question of band-aids. I have never tried MIT cables.
"In my system I still use SR cables -- in series with cables from HiDiamond, Bybee, Cardas, ASI Liveline and Supra LoRad (as a bridge connector with Oyaide plugs/IECs) to achieve the effects I am looking for." This is precisely why you guys have so many problems with cables. You are simply using them to bandaid your system. I only use MIT, have done for 30 years. Some of my cables are 25 years old, still perform to a high standard and in fact are worth more today than what I paid new.
And heres my experience with S.R. Its not beautiful. For years, I had been eying on S.R. cables, so after trying some of their pre-owned cables and cords, I love them. They help tuning my system up to where I wanted to be, heaven. All cables and cords were purchased USED at Agon and eBay with great success. I wanted to move up.
But sadly, just before I initiate to their higher products, an incident happened that totally changed my perspective about S.R. I would NEVER buy (or associate) S.R. again.
S.R. loss my interest and fate when an old set of my Alpha Sterling RCA interconnect started intermittent. I took my chance and decided to cut off one outer heat shrink knowing the warranty was then voided. (I later found from S.R that this old USED and SECOND HAND interconnect wouldnt be covered by the company any ways.) WOW, to my shockingly surprised, the positive (+) AND negative (-) leads were NEVER BEEN SOLDERED to the connector. (Email me for pics NasaMan11006@yahooDOTcome) The solder cup was still freshly and shinny clean showing no indication of it being ever got soldered on. I went numb. I felt I was being cheated. But that wasnt it, theres more.
Per discuss with Michael Platt from S.R on Jan7th, I mailed it in with the remaining of the heat shrink still intact with the connector and the cable proving all authentic from S.R.
Long story short, S.R denied to take the responsibility, but wanted to charge $50 for the repair. What reason? No warranty for second hand owner. The cable been out on the market for years, God knows what others did to it . Hello? This is a workmanship matter. Your assembler totally missed soldering the leads to the connector. This is a high-end business with cables that cost up to 10 of thousands, I thought theyd do more critical testing and verifying before shipping them out rather than just ohm out for continuity check. I was furor and didnt know where to go. S.R was my favorite cable company Im writing this not to bash S.R. but, perhaps, just to share my experience and POV. This is my first time revealing and sharing this matter with all since it happened in Jan. For me, it was a great journey with S.R. but after this incident, Im not buying any more S.R cables and cords which I dont think Ted and the company really care since Im only buying pre-owned while they aim and focus to newer market.
Below is the exchanged email between me (John) and Michael Platt from S.R.. He was straight forward, a gentleman, and professional. I never blame him but the policy and their workman ship.
---- Yahoo email, COPIED AND PASTED---- John,
Thank you very much for the compliments. We hope you will visit with us again at future RMAF events, and we appreciate your continued support.
It is very important to keep in mind that this cable cannot be serviced under warranty. We have a standard non-transferable warranty policy, which means that we do not provide warranty service for second-hand products. If the cable was not functioning when you received it from the party who sold it to you, you should contact them directly and demand a refund.
It is not likely this cable shipped from our factory in a defective state, but since this cable is at least six years old, it is not possible for us to determine exactly what happened to it. The original owner did not contact us or his dealer to report any malfunctions. Our examination revealed obvious signs of use, which leads us to believe that the cable was functioning normally for many years.
John, we will return this cable to you as requested. We will pay for the freight.
Best,
Mike
. On 1/12/12 12:54 PM, Pham, Giao John wrote: Hi Mike, Beside many other great cable companies, me and folks at AudioGon, AudioReview and Audio Asylum have very high regards on SR brand. In our communities, we always do respect Teds enthusiastic, his products, and his time endlessly dedicated to this interesting hobby and business. If I didnt meet him at the Rocky Mountain Audio show last year, 2010, I would probably didnt own many other much higher price SRs cords and cables as of today; I trusted his work and his reputation. Today, we are discussing about a matter that was clearly involved to a workmanship standard; A SOLDER JOINT THAT WAS CLEAR MISSED by SRs assembler. I sent the cables in so SR can review the issue and correct it accordingly. However, I do respect your protocol. Unfortunately, DO NOT REPAIR . Please leave them as is and return the cables. Please let me know how much for the shipping fee to Texas 77054 and type of payment. Sincerely Yours, John
Sgr, Your experience parallels mine in many ways. Like you, I have found there is more than one way to skin a cat. The hyping of new cable products seems to be the rule now and this must be taken with a grain of salt, IMO, for the reasons I outlined in my earlier post.
In my system I still use SR cables -- in series with cables from HiDiamond, Bybee, Cardas, ASI Liveline and Supra LoRad (as a bridge connector with Oyaide plugs/IECs) to achieve the effects I am looking for. I find that active shielding helps the sound -- especially when used in series with other cables.
But, like you, I find the "Active Shielding mess" with SR wires a problem. The MPC wires are all over the place and with my equipment close to the wall (until we remodel the house) it is very difficult to squeeze behind the components to see what's what and try to untangle things.
I have not had Signal Cable products in my system. I will look them up.
Studiosoundman, The kind of trial period you describe would be very helpful -- with special terms for overseas customers because of the shipping time lag. In my own business, I have an extended trial period and word of mouth keeps the return rate extremely low. I rarely get a return. I am not in the audio business, but this same thinking applies.
Your observation about companies being extremely confident in their products, many of which have not changed for ten to twenty years, hits the nail on the head. There are products out there that have stood the test of time. Some of them have taken my system to a new level -- at an aftermarket cost that is a fraction of the price of a new high-end cable -- Bybee comes to mind. And there are some products out there that are new to me that provide superior results and superior value -- HiDiamond comes to mind.
Sabai, I used to own lots of Synergistic wire. I owned the Resolution Reference cables. They sounded great at the time. I got tired of all the Active Shielding mess. It really became a pain to plug all that stuff in. When SR replaced it with the new line I looked into trading up. Much to expensive. Also it took months to get a Quattro fixed. So guess what, I took a chance on the Signal Cable line. I found it did everything the SR stuff did for far less money and without Active Shielding!! So what do you know, I found that cables are very hyped. They all do sound different but it is hard to out do high quantities of good old pure copper for the speaker and power cords. I do use the partially Silver Resolution interconnects. Throw in high quality connectors and one has a wire that will stand head to toe with anything I've had in my system. Frank at Signal Cable is to be commended.
Besides I really believe one would achieve better results by spending $20,000.00 on a new DAC or preamp than wire. If I had tens of thousands of bucks to spend I might get interested in new wire again. I'll keep my Signal Cable.
We found that there are a few audio companies now offering thirty day trial periods for their products. This offering would solve most issues of paying more money for the latest or upgraded product versus the value realized from the performance (knowing that perceptions by each person will be as different as each others listening room).
Trade in programs are great incentives for maintaining a client base but Sabai does make a financial point on having to pay additional import tax, duty and freight fees thus governing ones decision to make the trade and without knowing if said trade is worth the money. If SR provided a return guarantee then Sabai is only out the return freight costs and could possibly remain a satisfied customer.
Granted in that cable manufactures may fear too many returns based on client listening objections or having to pay for the added administrative costs in providing such a program but would not a long time well spoken loyal customer be worth that risk and expense?
You may also find that the companies offering return policies are extremely confident in that their products are on a one way trip and truthfully I love to see that attitude of certainty in a company. Some of these companies have products still being sold today that have not changed for ten to twenty years so what does that say about their company?
My opinion is if you are involved in this controversial high end audio business and truly believe that your products are some of the best offered a thirty day return policy will strengthen your bottom line and customer base over time. If not then it is back to the old drawing boards.
Hey Gloria, Long time no hear. I have no idea what you are talking about. Frankly, anyone who is trying to nail anyone to the wall on these forums needs to get that old blood pressure cuff on to check if things are within the normal range -- especially the diastolic. Too many people take things too darn seriously here. After all, this is just an audio forum, is it not?
Facten, I have a modest one-product business. I am rather conservative. I have made 3 revisions to my product in going-on 20 years. I obviously do not believe in making revisions unless they are important. My customers are pretty happy the way things are.
The issue at hand is not about differentiating one's product from others, nor is it about attracting customers. It is about the pace of changes in the modern world. I was brought up with ink wells and a penny bought you 3 black balls. There are many things about the break-neck rush toward technological perfection in our modern world that are very troublesome to me. High end audio has been infected with this compulsion for new products at nearly break-neck speed.
I am happy when I discover a new product, component, cable or tweak that brings improved sound to my system. But most of the products I have put money into were not worth the price. I have not been afraid to spend $5000 on a product. The only thing is that, in the end, after closer assessment, there have been few products that have been worth it. The rest have been sold off.
If I started to tell the stories of some high end audio names -- 3 in fact -- some of the most touted names in the business with world-class designers behind them -- and how they blew up and nearly took down my system I would cause more forum problems for myself than I have the time to reply to.
With regards to components, not only are manufacturing standards and testing standards often poor, the quality of parts is often a pathetic joke. I opened one unit that suddenly had a "major malfunction" and I instantly knew why I had never seen a photo of the inside anywhere on the internet including on the manufacturer's site. The quality of the parts was pathetic. A piece of junk. We're talking about a product in the $10,000 to $15,000 range from one of the top makers in the world. Shocking. I had it repaired and sold it off.
With regards to cables, I took apart a multi-thousand dollar cable from a very high end company and was shocked to see a cheap plastic dialectric, substandard plug and IEC and the cheapest manufacturing quality one could imagine. Shocking. I sold off the other cables I had from the same company.
Beyond the issue of product quality, I feel that most of what is brought to market in high-end audio could well have remained a glint in the eye of whoever came up with the brilliant new idea -- and the audio world would not have been one iota worse off. In high end audio you need to tread very carefully if you have budget constraints, which most of us do.
Someone asked me about Apple in an earlier post. The only apple I have is the one I eat. I do have a cell phone -- very convenient. It is 11 years old -- still going strong. I am looking for a used one so I can keep going with the same model. In many ways I am an anachronism in today's world. My mother passed away recently at nearly 100. I was brought up very old-fashioned. I am still very old-fashioned in many ways.
You stated above that you own a business, so my questions to you are - Do you not market/hype your business and products or services? Do you not try to differentiate yourself from your competitors? Do you not innovate to attract customers? Do you not look for unexplored market niches? Do you price your products or services without a mark-up that allows you the returns you want? Along with great customer service companies who want to stay in business and succeed do these things. So if your answer is yes to most if not all, then why shouldn't audio manufacturers be able to do the same. Presumably your customers have the choice of doing business with you or not. Likewise, you have choices to make audio purchases from whatever company you like within the context of how each operates. Good luck on your quest and, yes enjoy the music!
Mcondon, I appreciate your comments since they stimulate a deeper discussion of the matter. One can find the predictable responses to my posts:
1. Most companies do the same thing. If you don't like it move on to companies you like. Stop complaining and let us enjoy the music and the forums. 2. Way to go company!! Keep those great products coming so they can trickle down to us.
Both of these responses avoid the issues that I am encouraging discussion of, which are:
1. How much are you paying for the sonic improvements you are looking for? Do you feel you are paying too much -- or way too much -- for incremental improvements? 2. How are companies marketing their products? What motivates some companies to stick with a slower tried-and-true line that attracts a loyal following through good word of mouth and that evolves slowly -- while other companies gallop ahead with one fantastic improvement after the next --- accompanied by assertive marketing claims, to be sure, and replete with superlatives.
In hindsight, most improvements turn out to be no more than incremental. Customers are hyped to pay top dollar with the promise of something dazzling in return. A whole new line is usually rolled out to satisfy every budget interested and to give the illusion that no matter how lowly one's budget, everyone will participate in the latest and greatest, to one extent or another.
Frankly, I think it's all about getting audio buyers as excited as possible to motivate them to buy new. This may be an obvious point but I feel it cannot hurt to mention it. The pricing structure of new lines will be whatever new buyers are willing to bear. That is usually dictated by historical pricing -- what has become the pricing norm for individual manufacturers.
In other words, you will rarely see a manufacturer cutting the price of their top-rated new product by 50% vs. their previous comparative market entrant. You will likewise rarely see a manufacturer doubling the price of their top-rated new product vs. their previous comparative market entrant. To a great extent, once the cost of production and reasonable mark-up have been taken into account, prices are related to marketing when we are looking at the very high end companies.
Each new line is the absolute best, of course. So, when you look back, by corollary, if you bought 2 lines ago you paid way too much for way too little. The faster this marketing process is speeded up the truer the statement, IMO. Each successive line is highly touted, of course. It becomes a game that only the very well-heeled can participate in from start to end.
If one is budget-conscious, one is in a bind. It may take 2 or 3 years to get a really good buy on a line you may have a strong interest in. This means waiting longer than many people are willing to do. Patience is hard to come by when the latest and greatest is dangling before your eyes.
Wow Sabby D nailed you to the wall LOL yet you manage to write back with your messy answers/thoughts.
D,
That was some great come backs in defense to Sabby's beef. You are a very smart man and you have stood up in an intelligent way. The best response from anyone who would have started such a thread would be an apology for being a hypocrite.
I have written a bunch of trash on these threads myself about your ways D and I do turn from my foolish writings in light of your rebuttal.
Facten, The point is to stimulate discussion on a sensitive point. When you live overseas and you want to try out a cable -- or trade up -- the shipping cost can be hundreds of dollars in one direction. Multiply this by a few transactions and you are talking about a large sum of money. The problem is exacerbated by duty.
People in the US can avail themselves of relatively cheap shipping so that trading up -- or trying out cables -- is quite reasonable. If you try to do this overseas the cost can quickly become unreasonable, alas.
Mcondon, I have found that it takes a lot of buying and selling to come up with a solution that works for my system. This has meant going against "the grain" -- not opting for a loom from one maker. I have found that there are some excellent products from non-SR companies that produce extraordinary synergy in series with some SR products. Because my approach is unconventional and I live overseas it costs a lot more in shipping costs to put this together than if I were living in the lower 48. Making mistakes is very costly. There is loss through buying and reselling products as well as the loss on the cost of shipping them back and forth.
Studiosoundman, I appreciate your post very much. It examines the interrelationship of various factors that inform our audio choices. As you rightly point out, we are compelled to improve the quality of sound that our systems produce. But I have found that most products, especially in the cable department, provide incremental improvement at maximum cost. This goes for most high end cable companies, IMO. You can burn a lot of cash trying to find out which are gems and which are not worth the price.
For instance, how does one evaluate a product such as the SR Galileo Universal Speaker Cells? I have not read a testimonial anywhere about them. I have had them in my system for over a year. They bring a refinement in the sound that is significant. But, in series with Bybee Golden Goddess SE Speaker Bullets, the effect is much more palpable. Alone, each product offers an significant incremental improvement.
How do I evaluate the cost-effectiveness of each of these products? Well, that's the $64,000 question. Although I would not want to listen to my system without this combo I would say both products are over-priced -- compared with some other cable/tweak products I have in my system.
One nice thing that the Speaker Cells allow me to do is add one more level of speaker cables. With the Cardas Golden Cross sandwiched between ASI Liveline and HiDiamond (top-of-the-line) the sound is incomparable. Bybee Speaker Purifiers are in there too. There are 6 levels of cables/tweaks between amp and speakers. Each level makes a significant improvement to the sound. This is not for everyone.
In my system, in the cable/tweak department, dollar-for dollar by far the biggest bangs for the bucks are the old Bybee Quantum Purifiers -- AC, IC, speaker -- and HiDiamond cables. The Bybee Ultra PC (on the aftermarket) also provides excellent value -- in series with other PCs with Bybee Purifiers sandwiched in the middle the sound is elevated to a much higher level.
The SR Hologram D is a killer PC -- but at a killer price. I have yet to try HiDiamond PCs -- coming soon. I have all my PCs in series and will try the Hologram D in series with HiDiamond after A/B-ing them individually. The quest for the best possible sound -- within a diminishing audio budget -- continues.
I took the time to look thru Mr. Denney's patent application for his acoustic resonators. They appear to be well explained and different enough to be considered for a patent. Just my opinion and not one based on a legal backround. Good luck thru the process.
Sabai is entitled to change his opinion. I have bought audio products that I thought were good, said nice things about them here or in other audio forums, and then realized later, after some experimentation, that I could get better sound for less money, often much less money. Strange that the high priced but underperforming products employed the same business strategy as SR, while the less expensive but superior products were from companies that have a more "stable" product line (Pass, BPT, Crimson, Clear Day.)
I fully understand your points but don't you think this is a bit pointless?. You have started other threads pointing out the same issues. I ask you... ultimately, what do you really want from all of this since there must be a motive behind it all. Even though I agree to some of your points doesn't mean I don't get bored of you nagging on. Move on my friend and enjoy the music.
In my most humble opinion on high end audio wire companies and the rapid release of model numbers, the consumer could be most at fault here. It appears that the majority of high-end audio is consistently driven by the whats new demand for products that is always required by the audiophile. I definitely identify with the hobbyists demands for the next newest product or technical achievement as I too am often found guilty of the same.
Adding to the newest out there phenomena, the cable end of audio appears to be very heavily oversaturated with manufacturers, brand names, used merchandise with huge quantities of varying technical approaches for these products. Based on the limited size of this industry and competition, business owners must have difficulty just staying open.
Is the rapid release of new products just a method of staying in business based on consumer demands?
Cable manufacturing also presents itself as one of the least expensive ways to open an audio business and before the sparks begin to fly in rebuttal, I deeply relate to the fiery desire for personal achievement and believe every DIY audio person looks to someday invent the next futuristic product and open a company of their own related to their love for music.
Although I often wonder how a cable manufacturer suddenly becomes expert in acoustics, vibration, speakers or electronics bringing additional products to market in what appears to be a very little time spent on the research and development stages for product development. The same is true with a few other companies appearing to be focused in on one category of merchandise then overnight expanding into new fields of audio sciences and with production.
We gained experience in the vibration and acoustics control end of audio and spent over two years sampling products seeking to improve the sound in the recording studio. It seemed that each year five new companies arrived and ten disappeared and most of the existing companies had released a series two or three or four to their existing line up so cable companies are not the only category experiencing this type of industry trend.
Are audio companies in the accessory support end of business running out of market percentage influenced by oversaturation? Man, I thought the food industry was tough!
So in closing, do we blame audiophiles, industry trends, a starving economy for rapid increases of upgraded, similar looking or new products costing more with minimal increased performance values and such?
I would rather put the blame on Music. Thats the darn culprit responsible for all this discussion.
It addicts and compels us towards always listening, to learn more.
Disclaimer: My father works with a commercial company that employs various forms of vibration management so I am biased, have had greater access to knowledge from experience and have applied various techniques, multiple grounding principles working in recording studio settings.
Not sure what the point of all of this is. SR has the right to operate its business model as it sees fit and protect its intellectual property whether or not you think all of their products are great or not. Likewise , you have the right to make the choice of buying its products or not, upgrading within SR's line or not. If you don't like SRs business model then switch to a brand that better suits what you are after versus agonizing over the fact that how they operate doesn't suit you. A company like Apple must really give you heartburn!
How or why would someone think or bother to apply for a patent on work that was displayed by Franck T Chang in 2004 "The Original Acoustic Resonator". I suppose a U.S. Patent office agent doesn't have access to the world wide web. I would like to see info as to why one is unique from the other. Tom
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