Horn based loudspeakers why the controversy?

I owned a pair of A7s from the early 70s until the mid 80s generally doing bi-amped live sound duty, and when used as stereo speakers from time to time they were astonishingly good. Not "flat" by definition but they had a charming, perhaps faux, "wooden" tone that was cool…this was before phase plugs and other refinements (although I replaced blown horn diaphragms here and there and added serious JBL 15" bass speakers to them) so it's a wonder they worked at all, but man, you could make people smile playing dynamic orchestral stuff through them, which I did occasionally by driving them with my home stereo rig…cool speakers.

I believe any and all Altec compression drivers had phase plugs. They changed some of their characteristics  (Tangerine) to extend and smooth out high frequencies.
Cheers, 
Tim

Did the classic Altec A7 811 horns from 1970 have phase plugs? I thought the "Tangerine" thing was later but I'm now not sure..

Compression drivers of all types, from what I remember, had a phase plug. The Tangerine came later, (mid 70's) first used in the Altec Model 19. The phase plug was needed to make the compression driver work properly. I don't know the mechanical or electrical reasons why. I think Altec came out with the Tangerine because one of the chief complaints about these drivers was a lack of HF extension. I remember my home pair of A-7's having more of a "whoooshhh" sound  on cymbals rather than the nice extended "crash" sound a cymbal has when struck with a stick or mallet. This was much improved with the Model 19. IMHO

My Airpulse Model one speakers have a horn loaded ribbon tweeter which I find to be very extended and detailed. Not a true horn but an interesting implementation nonetheless which sounds verg good to these ears

{Edgar Villchur started the controversy}  Do agree that sellers of early AS stereo designs had to talk owners into buying 2 new speakers and getting rid of those old RCA Altec JBL Lowther WE horns. Wonder whats more usable and valuable today the old horns or those early AS designs?

My Tannoy dual concentric horn loaded tweeters just died after a particularly loud POP on a vinyl disc.
Not sure if I am going to keep pursing horns.

Klipsch horn speakers have been loved by many peple since 1946 and thought of as one of the best speakers for the price.  They have lasted the test of time. If people did not love them they would have stopped production year s ago.  Personal taste in how you feel your music, how you hear your music. People have personal taste and hear music differently
What one person might hear as bright sound, it may be just right for someone else that hear that frequency with less sensitivity.  Horn based enclosures are very efficient and dynamic. Usually best suited for larger rooms. They have a unique sound you either like or don't. Listen and compare to see what you like. For a large room 20ft square or larger Klipsch horns are difficult to beat for the price. There are probably horn based compedtors that sound great too.

No one here ever heard of or heard any modern JBL Horn/Reflex speakers? Try Everest DD66000, K2 S7500, S3100, K2 S9900, M2.. etc. I think you might be shocked by what you hear.. and NOT at a show! I run my 20 yr old S3100 with a 180 watt vintage Perraux Mosfet amp to great effect.. I have never tired of them. A friend of mine says they remind him of his Martin Logan stats .. transparent with great imaging to boot. Of course, there are many ways to skin a cat!

Also, I should add that I have also run my 96db S3100 with 3,10 and 30 watts - Jadis defy DA30 for years and years -  to varying effect.. all good, so the sensitivity does come into play with matching. I have found that even though they are quite sensitive they sound best, to me, with more rather than less wattage. I use a tube pre-amp; AN M2 Phono.

Well, I may have an age edge here worth commenting.  My dad was one of the early pioneers of retail high end audio, and we had a JBL C31 corner horn in our living room (two 15" horn-loaded woofers, an "Acoustic Lens" midrange-treble horn for the remainder of the audio spectrum.  To this day I've heard no speakers (and I've owned many) that come even close to the sound of that old mono speaker, driven by an (at that time) huge 24wpc Williamson tube power amp and preamp made by Newcomb.

To me, conceptually, it is fairly simple: moving air.  Musicians move a lot of air; speakers other than horns and planars do not. Not only are they more efficient, but driven by tubes they have the advantage of low power/low distortion at any reasonable listening volume.  The rest is a matter of design .... JBL's were incredibly well designed ... horns and crossovers.  That is why they outshown the Jensens, the Utahs, and the ElectroVoices of their day.  But even some of those sounded good ... I built a corner horn and installed a 15" Jensen Triax in it to use in college, driven by an Eico HF-20 tube amplifier, and was often unable to get dressed for dinner because of the party going on in our room.  That speaker introduced me to Monk, to Ahmad Jamal, to Coleman Hawkins, etc.  I could walk a few blcks to a club for live performances by these same musicians while in graduate school in Chicago.  To this day, for me that is the acid test.  When I close my eyes at the clubs (I usually do) and do the same at home, does the music transport me?  I learned at an early age that horns are perfectly capable of doing that for hours on end.

Tried many set-ups, over the last 15 yrs, but what I have been enjoying very very much the last 2 yrs is my upgraded Klipsch La Scalas, driven by an upgraded Dynaco Tube  amp.

I have three systems and five pairs of speakers. I bought the Klipsch KLF-20's brand new back in the day of their last year and never regretted it. They are my only horn speaker and are currently hooked up in one of my systems and I will never ever sell them as they are that good. I have been thinking of getting new speakers but every time I audition the new speakers I end up liking mine the best.

exron,
It's really interesting for me to see another listener whose journey has been similar to my own. I've been through many fine speakers; ProAc response 1s, which were known for their precise imaging, and Spendor SP100s which were known for their mid range neutrality, just to name two. There have been many others. My Klipsch Epic CF-4 speakers have stayed with me longer than any of them. Huge though they are, they disappear when playing music (on Sistrun SP 101 stands) and image as well as the little ProAcs, and have a beautiful mid range like the spendors, all the while having far better efficiency and dynamics than either. They're not perfect, but they are overall more satisfying than any speaker I have ever owned. I think part of the secret is that the majority of the music is reproduced by that single 2 inch horn loaded compression driver. I makes for a very coherent presentation.

It's true that they have higher distortion when they are run at anywhere near the rated power but they also have vanishing low distortion if they are run at about 10% of full power. So when you hear them coupled with  horns usually you're not hearing the amps distort.   Solid-state is the opposite at about 10% of its full power it will have quite a bit higher distortion  then the SET amp at 10%.

+1  I think most people don't understand this simple fact about SETs and thus don't get to hear what they really do!

Try Everest DD66000, K2 S7500, S3100, K2 S9900, M2.. etc.

I have a customer with K2s- powered by our largest amp, the MA-3. They are amazing and does not hurt to have that kind of power behind them (our amps haver very low distortion at low power levels unlike most push-pull amps; I think that is why he gets away with this).

I am enjoying a pair of Klipsch Lascala speakers, which are my 3rd pair. These have the " AL " crossovers, which I understand, were not designed by PWK, but by another engineer at Klipsch, designed to be a more " audiophile " crossover. I have dampened the horns, the drivers, the cabinets, and have dampened and isolated the crossovers. I have owned so much gear in my 50 years of this ( including many speaker types, and brands ), and, all I can say, I am extremely happy.  I do use subs for the lowest octave, and run the LS's full range. Thank you, MrD

Got to hear Klipsch  Heresy and Forte 3s today for first time.    Local dealer just started carrying these.   I was very pleasantly surprised by the Heresy 3.   I could live with those. 

Does the hearing ability of the individual make any difference in the opinion of horns?  It seems like they provide more directional energy  thus providing a better experience for those who have lost a little top end or detail in their hearing.  I have never owned horns, but the giant horns at audio shows always intrigue me and I would really like to hear them. 

I'm with mapman…I've mostly ignored Klipsch for decades, although in the 80s there was a KG4 or something that sounded pretty nice to me (I went with Boston A60IIs…I have a re-coned pair in my TV rig). I recently trekked over to a NH dealer to listen to a pair of Heresy IIIs and was also surprised with those things, although for many that's simply heresy. Might have to get a pair of those.

Some audiophiles would do well to stop talking about horn speakers, and start listening to them. They may be surprised.

@mward

Does the hearing ability of the individual make any difference in the opinion of horns? It seems like they provide more directional energy thus providing a better experience for those who have lost a little top end or detail in their hearing. I have never owned horns, but the giant horns at audio shows always intrigue me and I would really like to hear them.

While I’m surprised this hasn’t been suggested (or even more overtly insinuated) more often by those in particular who couldn’t care less about the sound of horn speakers, be they hybrids or all-horns, I’d link the love of horn sound to sheer taste and perhaps not least a more conscious and seasoned approach into the reproduction of sound. Horn speakers, certainly all-horns, are in the clear minority compared to the vastness of the direct radiating alternatives, and generally take more effort to get to sound well - both in regards to the implementation with ones remaining setup, as well as the development and final execution of the horns themselves. Most so-called horn speakers though are really hybrids (and I can’t for the life of me fathom why this distinction isn’t carved out more clearly in the discussion of "horn" speakers), and so many may be predominantly referring to the challenging aspects of their reproduction here that commonly comes down to the lack of integration between the horn(s) and direct radiating units. Conversely all-horns can represent a different set of challenges compared to hybrids, that may likely require of the listener to make an even more radical decision based on several factors. The complexity of all this, and all-horns in particular being rather far between, requires a far more selective and, to my mind, seasoned approach in putting together such a system. When some people here refer to their less than favorable impressions of horn sound I’m often brought back to the realization of the above as a sad reminder that many mayn’t have heard a true, carefully developed, assembled and implemented all-horn system. When done right, and I admit this may be something of a rarity, such a system brings you close to a musical event just happening before you, uninhibited and naturally; no talk or thought of "hifi," but simply music in a very pure and emotional form. Lately I’ve been rather disheartened listening to some of the bigger brands horn hybrid solutions that seem to be neither here nor there in their sound. Certainly impressive in some regards, but I’m afraid all to easily (and quite understandably) fueling the thoughts in some as poor representatives of "horn" sound. It’s an industry, alright, and one where "going the distance" in such realms of speaker principle/design is the less sought way.

That sounds like a very reasonable assessment of the situation. That's kind of my problem with AMT based speakers. At some point you're crossing over to a conventional cone and it kinda falls apart in some way. 

Having heard the newer Klipsch offerings, I’m going to go out on a limb and say horns need no longer be so controversial. Affordable good sounding ones are out there. Like anything else some will like them and some will not. Their clear advantage is the extra efficiency which may well matter quite a bit for many. No harder to drive than most others at a minimum as well it seems. Probably much easier to drive properly than most.

Aside from their Heritage line, it doesn't appear that Klipsch makes anything that would quality as "high end". I just scoured their website for something that would compare to what I'm listening to right now and they've apparently abandoned their high end hybrid designs. It looks like your Klipsch options are either Best Buy-grade 2 ways or their Heritage line. 
This thread made me do reading on horns and my opinions about them aren't swayed. Horns have problems that aren't cheap to fix. I went back and read up on Avantgarde and the retired premium Klipsch line. I'd like to hear the Avantgarde's I read about, in part because HR described the dynamics of my Focals being close to them. Nothing I read about any Klipsch product tempts my curiosity. I'd never tolerate a speaker the size of a small dresser, period, and I consider the placement demands of K-horns a design failing that unavoidably constricts them to less than ideal placement in any less that ideal room. 

Regarding horn use and abuse, I use a pair of Mackie 10" 2 way P.A. passive (passive aggressive) speakers (with a beefy Mackie sub since they’re good to maybe 60hz) daily for my mindless but important electric guitar noodling in my mindless noodling studio setup. Note that the these little gems are the original version that cost around 300 bucks a pair new and seem to be made from some sort of plastic cement (heavier than the latest "neo" magnet woofer version which I imagine also sound real good). Interestingly, if you put recorded music through these (as opposed to my noodling tracks) it sounds sort of great. Heresy again. Plus, I’m not sure I spelled "noodling" correctly but it looks right.

kosst reads about how things sound not listens. And adds so much unsupported BS like this gem [ Horns have problems that aren't cheap to fix] no list of problems no hands on experience with said problems. I say kosst why even comment on horns when your experience levels zero and your bias towards what you own is 100%? And why do you think a corner is a bad place in a room to house a speaker designed for it and about a meter or more out is somehow more room friendly? And since you have no hands on why should I value your other bold proclamation of no klipsch being high end. Come out from under the bridge. 

Kosst I’m referring mainly to the heritage line.  Have not heard the others enough to judge meaningfully.   

@johnk
You’re presumptions about my experience with horns is as wrong as you claim my opinions are. Klipsch horns in particular were the definition of honky horns for a long time on account of their big, very resonant horns. I get the impression from the glowing adoration of horns by some here that their significant shortcomings are being ignored. Just like any transformer, they color sound. Like any transformer, the degree and quality of that coloration is a product of the design and materials used. And just like any transformer, better ones are more expensive by virtue. Horns are NOT just better regardless of how they’re made.
The Palladium series did look like fine products, but they apparently didn’t compete with conventional speakers well.
As for the required corner placement, who exactly has two ideally located corners from their listening position? You basically need an ideally proportioned room to be sure the speaker placement is the best. That strikes me as a significant design failing.

I just want to be clear that I'm not saying the modern Heritage line is a bunch of junk. Like the Porsche 911, they've taken a design with significant faults and refined it into something quite respectable. 

"The Palladium series did look like fine products, but they apparently didn’t compete with conventional speakers well."

They did not compete well mainly because of price points.  At $20,000 msrp for the P-39Fs, these were a huge step up for Klipsch that many "loyal" Klipsch fans just could/would not swallow that pill.  At that price Klipsch would be rubbing shoulders with some heavy hitters and they had not "proven" they belonged in that elite group.  Many non Klipsch folks were just not willing to give them a chance, and I get that.

At some of the current used prices out in used speaker land, these Palladiums are becoming a powerhouse performance bargain.

Bill

I'll bet half their problem is their website. Go there and try to find a dealer stocking a pair of Heresy. In my area I get every ABC Warehouse, Best Buy, and a few electronics shops I've never heard of. You can be sure Best Buy and ABC Warehouse aren't stocking heritage gear and their website makes no distinction. I wouldn't know where to hear a good pair of Klipsch without calling shops for 15 minutes. That's a problem. 

I get the impression from the glowing adoration of horns by some here that their significant shortcomings are being ignored

I can speak for myself in that such is certainly not the case. Horns can sound as good or as bad as anything else.

I won't argue with that. You're generally talking big speakers though. 

I just ordered a pair of Klipsch Heresy lll......  a complete 180 for me but i'm looking for a sensitive speaker that is tube friendly.  Currently have a pair of Quicksilver Mid Monos, that I 'll never sell.... but I'd like to try building something like a bottlehead amp.   

Audio Visual Therapy in Nashua NH is the only Heritage dealer near me. They had Heresy Capitol and Forte lll on display.   Great guys up there , no tax.....  They have a lot of great speakers on display and the best headphone room I've ever seen

I have never heard any of the discontinued Palladiums, but I have noted that there have not been a single pair of any of them for sale on the used market in the US for months now...I've been looking. I think that says something about their desirability. 

I’ve posted a number of wanted ads for a used pair just so I can evaluate them but no luck. The owners must want to hold on to them.  My experience is limited to a P39F store demo in Quebec where they were a bit edgy but sounded very good. They wouldn’t be something worth recommending to suit the OP’s request.

I think it says more about their scarcity. I was surprised to find they'd abandoned the entire line. I can't believe they didn't sell just because the Klipsch name really lacked prestige. There's clearly no shortage of Klipsch fondness here. They reviewed well. The worst thing I read about any of them is the bookshelf had no depth. That would be an unexcusable sin in my book though. 

Kosst..........this is from your 1st post . " My system at home portrays a comparable sound to what I heard. Generally I feel that the dynamics of events like that are less than what people want to be hearing on a home stereo. I'm not sure 130 dB of dynamic range reflects reality very often. I don't believe that should be the goal of an audio system at the cost of other virtues ". Was your daughters extravaganza with or without electronic amplification ? If not, I doubt your system is comparable, unless the acoustics, or, your listening seat, was not very good. I doubt 130 db peaks were ever reached. I had my head banging times, but, as an older and more experienced listener, 130 db is not why I own horns. I admit, horns are not for everyone, but, I am guessing, you have never experienced a properly set up, higher end horn system, even that Khorn system you had exposure to. MrD

Actually, your listening seat, or the event's acoustics, would still not make it comparable.

@roxy54 

"I have never heard any of the discontinued Palladiums, but I have noted that there have not been a single pair of any of them for sale on the used market in the US for months now...I've been looking. I think that says something about their desirability."   

These are my buddy Alex's down in Miami.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-klipsch-palladium-p-39f-2017-11-18-speakers

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-flloorstanding-loudspeakers-2017-12-01-speakers

Bill

Let me just say this. In my world ( as I assume others as well ), the goal of an audio system, is to, as faithfully as possible, recreate the live musical event. Virtues I listen for are ( not necessarily in specific order, but important ) : Top to bottom, octave to octave balance. Dynamic range. Sound staging. PRAT. Black, noiseless background. Finally, the sense of involvement. I am simplifying here, but there it is. I understand, I am listening to recordings ( live, or studio ), and some recordings are better than others, with some being exceptional, some ok, some mediocre, and some are poor. If I can get my toes tapping ( or not, depending on what I am listening to, just involved ), I have fulfilled my expectations. 

Willland
Look in the A'gon speaker classifieds. There is a pair of Klipsch P-39f Palladiums there right now.

@mr_m

Yes I know, the two links in my previous post indicated that.

I am the 

Bill

@mrdecibel 

They didn't use the installed PA rig for the small events they did. They used EV's on stands. I've heard the main rig plenty because I've operated cameras at their big events. It's not bad. 

I can't say I've ever heard an ideally set up horn rig in a residential setting. I'm not even aware of a shop that sells good horns within 100 miles of me. The lower end horns are only memorable for how annoying they were and I usually find them with big orange cones or stuffed in a theater somewhere. Honestly, I wouldn't waste anybody's time showing me K-horns because I'd absolutely never buy them at any price. Their size and placement demands make them impossible options. 
Like I said, if somebody has a great pair of horns for me to hear, let me know. I'll listen. I like a tight, physical kind of sound. That's why I like my Focals. It's what I've liked about horns. I don't like that in-your-face way so many project sound. I've never heard a horn not sound like that to some degree. Either that's just what horns sound like, or they're exceptionally difficult to design correctly. I'm leaning towards the latter. I don't blame people if they like that kind of sound. Some people value tone beyond imaging or any other consideration. We all have our quirks. I value exceptional imaging, smooth response, and decent but not ear-popping dynamics. Horns aren't for me. 

Horns can image as good as any other design its not a limitation of horns. But some are designed for even coverage off axis this may yield  a slight reduction in image if used in a home set up but have a more even off axis response than audiophile systems tend to. In other words if your not a seated centered listener these type of horns will sound better and more real than audiophile loudspeakers. Horns can also be optimized for seated center listening even in near-field I have all 3 types in my systems at home. My near field system is a pair of community leviathans I sit about 7 feet from them in my office system. They could produce concert level SPL with ease but I love how great they sound at low levels in near field. And yes they are big but when put in corner near wall they take up same amount of usable SQFT as my fostex towers did since they required the usual audiophile placements. Also the horn just sound so much better http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/y2015/06/134978/027.jpg

@johnk 
You're making a bunch of unequivocal statements there that I can go out and prove wrong right now with the cold, hard evidence of measurements. I glossed over a variety of horn measurements just now. None of them have dispersion as even as my Focals, much less something like a Magica S5 Mk. II. Horns CAN image well, but do they generally? Not in my experience. I've never heard anything image as flat and 2 dimensionally as horns. I'll allow for a better optimized horn to image well though. 
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but dispersion tends to dictate the quality of imaging to some significant extent. I've thought it to be common knowledge that narrow baffles and smaller drivers yield wide dispersion and resultant impressive imaging. I'm not at all surprised to find that virtually every horn I could find measurements on generally exhibited the same truncated dispersion. That's the natural result of simulating a very large radiating area. That's what horns do. I do NOT think that sounds good. It appears judging by the marketplace most people don't think that sounds better or even good either. 
The bottom line is that until I hear a horn that sounds like a point-source I'm not going to like them. Actual sources of sound tend to behave much more like point sources than large, focused, radiating areas tainted with the coloration of an acoustic transformer's resonance and shape. It's kind of like amplifiers with coupling transformers. Some folks like them, some think it's just another contrivance between them and their music. I like DC coupled amps. I like dynamic driver speakers. I don't like transformers of any sort except big toroidals in my power supplies.