John, do not waste your time anymore with Kosst. I can say, easily, Focals, are not my cup of tea. This is what makes this a fun hobby, and quite a personal and individual one. It is all about the recorded music, and what each of us wants. Once someone starts to argue, or, try to make a point, about their equipment, and that they are right, it shows me, that they doubt themselves, and their selection of equipment.
Horn based loudspeakers why the controversy?
As just another way to build a loudspeaker system why such disputes in forums when horns are mentioned? They can solve many issues that plague standard designs but with all things have there own. So why such hate? As a loudspeaker designer I work with and can appreciate all transducer and loudspeaker types and I understand that we all have different needs budgets experiences tastes biases. But if you dare suggest horns so many have a problem with that suggestion..why?
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@kosst_amojan You’re making a bunch of unequivocal statements there that I can go out and prove wrong right now with the cold, hard evidence of measurements. I glossed over a variety of horn measurements just now. None of them have dispersion as even as my Focals, much less something like a Magica S5 Mk. II. Being anything less than outright experts on the matter I’m guessing most of us here are really just blundering novices, and so are easy prey when we try and read up on these complicated affairs more or less sporadically as a theoretical means to back up an argument. What we should really go by in any final instance regarding sound is that of actual listening experience to account for, in this case, the imaging capabilities we’re after, or as they say: the proof is in the pudding. As things often develop though meanings become muddled as the source of reference has a tendency to be slightly altered over time, but occasionally with severe effect. For, what it really says is "the proof of the pudding is in the eating," and this makes quite a difference to support my claim: we can’t come by our objective just by reading the recipe (i.e.: measurements) to know of pudding and its actual taste; we to have to eat it (i.e.: listen) to truly know what we’re dealing with sonically. Horns CAN image well, but do they generally? Not in my experience. I’ve never heard anything image as flat and 2 dimensionally as horns. I’ll allow for a better optimized horn to image well though. (and now I’m the one to be theoretical) Controlled dispersion, or the nature of directivity of horns typically involves the acoustics of the environment to a lesser degree compared to direct radiating speakers, and so in theory you have at least a different, and likely more controllable means (like, at window to a source) to assess the nature of a recording. The more dispersive nature of direct radiating speakers opens up a can of worms in a different direction, so to speak, involving the acoustic environment more highly and so being more dependent on it, but can yield excellent though different results into imaging. Both of these characteristics of dispersive nature are viable, different ways to achieve great imaging, but personally I prefer the typically denser, less carved out and sphere-like imaging style of quality all-horn speakers. From my chair they emulate the live acoustic presentation more closely, and simply sound more natural. As I’ve stated earlier my own all-horn speakers image really well, and don’t cater in any way to the narrow-baffle school. As Kevin Fiske says it, just as an example: As a rule I can’t be bothered with all that nonsense about soundstage depth and placement – it’s musicality and tonality I want, not a sonic hologram – but the Ucellos simply won’t be denied; a hologram is what they throw, and it demands attention. Sit right in the narrow sweet spot and they project performers with a chiselled-from-granite confidence that is so mesmerising that I temporarily forgot what I’d come there for. https://www.dagogo.com/simon-mears-audio-ucello-3-way-horn-loudspeaker-review/3/ I’ve thought it to be common knowledge that narrow baffles and smaller drivers yield wide dispersion and resultant impressive imaging. To my mind this is a marketing ploy. I’m not saying this segment of speakers don’t have the capacity to potentially image well, but it’s hardly a prerequisite to come to fruition - per the above. If anything the narrow baffle design is an industry paradigm with great inertia, and as implemented in the listening room rarely offers solace in regards to the space they take up, requiring mostly to be placed well into the room away from walls. So much for WAF-factor.. The bottom line is that until I hear a horn that sounds like a point-source I’m not going to like them. Actual sources of sound tend to behave much more like point sources than large, focused, radiating areas tainted with the coloration of an acoustic transformer’s resonance and shape. It’s kind of like amplifiers with coupling transformers. Some folks like them, some think it’s just another contrivance between them and their music. Whatever you like I’m not going to argue, but it’s how we may go on to rationalize and conclude (and not least reduce) on our findings that I see potentially problematic. "Actual (point-)sources of sound" are so whether their origin is direct radiating units or horns, but I think I see where you’re heading at. The need for "point-source" sound to my mind and ears would dispel with the plural and equate striving for ultimate coherency as if originating from a single unit per channel. As such I find my own horn speakers to excel, being that the "large, focused radiating area" - as you describe it - gives the sensation almost of a "mono-bubble," but with stereo information in it (and perhaps this is your issue?). The "mono-bubble" to my mind compares successfully to a live, holistic event, because while instruments play to the left there’s no division of the space into left and right or other; the medium that carries the sound is indeed one large space, and it centers the experience as one of wholeness. Lastly, I don’t see quality horns (as the acoustic transformer) "tainted with coloration," but some may conclude they are marred by coloration simply by virtue of giving an overall different presentation compared to direct radiating speakers. And of course, your overall experience may simply have been one of listening to colored, incoherent horn (i.e.: hybrid?) speakers, and we sure know they do exist as well. |
I came into a celebrity's JBL Paragon 25 years ago along with a vintage Mc275 and Mc240. Similarly, 13 years ago I was given 2 Mc2105s, and a Mr77. I added JBL 2405 slot tweeters (alnico) to the Paragon, and use a MEN220 Room Perfect with its electronic crossovers, biamping with the Mc275 - top, and Mc2105 - bottom (made a huge difference). The most recent addition is a Bryston CP 26 Preamp (great improvement). Most of my friends are musicians like me, and none fail to be blown away. However, when live music plays a prominent role in your life, no speaker does everything, and one can enjoy many different brands and models over the years for their own special characteristics. |
Honestly, I don't sit around listening to a lot of well recorded orchestra music recorded in well tuned venues. A pair of speakers that replicates that isn't a serious consideration to me and it doesn't require tremendous amounts of imaging capability to replicate that. The vast majority of what I listen to is studio recorded material. I throw 3 things are a stereo to get a feel for it. Tool, Dead Can Dance, and Bassnectar. If Jambi doesn't bowl me over: fail. If the bells in Agape stab me in the ears: fail. If Bassnectar falls apart: fail. I like the set back sound of my Focals. I like their complete sonic absence. Sure, there's things they could do better, but I like what they do and they work well in the space I have. I'm well aware Focal aren't for everybody. They tend to have a certain character not everybody likes. What I think I'm seeing here is horns have different uses for different people and spaces. I'd just like to see that fact acknowledged instead of the blind assertion that horns are the ideal for every person in every space for every taste. Been nice debating this, but I'm beyond repeating myself at this point and there's nothing more to be said. |
Kosst
BSC made simple (and why it may be important to you)
http://www.salksound.com/wp/?p=42 |
Does the "cold hard evidence of measurement" actually have anything to do with personal taste in musical tone? Measurements and personal comprehension anomalies aren't completely mutually exclusive, but aren't matching either. If horn loaded speakers are made well, the phase plugs and throat shape, etc., will provide efficiency and projection and that's about it as far as generalizations go since they're not otherwise the same thing (different designs simply sound different)…many modern speakers have moderate "horn loading" recessions around tweeters to make them more efficient, and although generally aren't considered horns per se, certainly do the same thing. Once them pesky high frequencies get released who knows where they go? As long as they get to my earballs somehow I'm fine. |
I'm not saying measurements have much to do with personal taste. Some folks love the sound of horns, others huge baffle deals like DeVores and the big BBC clones. Some neither. These Focals I'm listening to at the moment have tweeters mounted in big lenses to manipulate their baffle interaction. The tweeters are called 1 inch inverted domes, but the actual diaphragm is much bigger than that and the main inverted dome is surrounded by smaller inverted domes. The mid-range driver is unusually large for the crossover point used and that leads to them being more directional at the crossover region. Line array theory would suggest that the 3 little woofers couple in their pass band and operate like a single 21" driver in the vertical plane. There seem to be all kinds of ways of manipulating the behavior of a speaker to mitigate or accentuate certain characteristics. I think a lot of modern speakers have improved a lot because more exotic ways of controlling driver behavior have been developed and better understood. I agree that a lot of speakers steal some horn theory and behavior. I also think they do it without the drawbacks and challenges of an actual horn. Is the KEF UniQ driver a horn? I've never heard it called one. I've never heard anybody say it sounds like one. But it does have a compression element and a waveguide. It's probably more of a horn that the tweeter arrangement Zu uses and lots of people call those horns. |
Like I said, if somebody has a great pair of horns for me to hear, let me know. I'll listen. I like a tight, physical kind of sound. That's why I like my Focals. It's what I've liked about horns. I don't like that in-your-face way so many project sound. I've never heard a horn not sound like that to some degree. Either that's just what horns sound like, or they're exceptionally difficult to design correctly. I'm leaning towards the latter. I don't blame people if they like that kind of sound. Some people value tone beyond imaging or any other consideration. We all have our quirks. I value exceptional imaging, smooth response, and decent but not ear-popping dynamics. Horns aren't for me.OK- Classic Audio Loudspeakers. They image extremely well and dance circles around any Focal I've heard. They have gotten 'Best Sound at Show' a number of times (THE Show, RMAF, Axpona, CAF). The bottom line is that until I hear a horn that sounds like a point-source I'm not going to like them.The Classic Audio does that; the speakers vanish and do not call attention to themselves. Slight nuances in any recording are instantly audible as they are very fast and revealing (the first breakup occurs at 35KHz); IOW if you want "exceptional imaging, smooth response, and decent but not ear-popping dynamics" then horns may well be for you. |
Jimspov, Gramophone stores in Maryland recently added Klipsch Heritage and had a few models set up for demo. Nice add! As I mentioned above, I recently heard Klipsch Forte and Heresy 3 models there. Both passed with flying colors for me. Heresy 3 are perhaps the lowest cost horns I have heard that I could live with. |
A few off the top off my head that offer horn systems at all price ranges. Cogent, GPA, Volti, CAR, BDesigns,Azura, AudioKinesis,Avantgarde,Klipsch,Autotech,GOTO, OceanWay,Acapella,VIVA,OMA,Tune Audio,JBL,Simon Mears,Vitavox,Living Voice,Vienna Physix,Cerwin Vega,Fostex,Cessaro,Zingali,Magico,Tannoy,Opera lots of others many pro models that can be used in home systems like Danleys. A good num of custom builders. Still many into horns DIY or mod vintage. On ebay and craigslist many old PA and vintage horns about for extremely low prices that with a few mods can near equal the costly horns. As far as audioshops not stocking horn models I find it difficult to find shops that cater to tubes let alone specialty audio like a horn. And while I love my local shop they just end up ordering what I want from the PC as we chat. What most stock is safe bet sales generic major name brand audio and I cant blame them with today's online markets. |
@mapman I was very pleasantly surprised by the Heresy 3. I could live with those.I also was pleasantly surprised by the Heresy IIIs. I took a pair home at the insistence of a dealer who shares my taste in most gear. I expected to hate them due to my experience with some Best Buy models years ago. However, they’re nothing like the cheap tower models. The Heresys manage low-volume dynamics better than all other relatively affordable speakers I’ve heard, many of which approached $5K. In most other respects they easily hold their own at their price point. |
I find the Heresy to be a puzzle. A slow, air suspension, 12 in. woofer, mated to a midrange and tweeter horn. But yet, it works. The Epic series, same thing, but these were bass reflex enclosures. The Heresy's were desighned by PWK, and the Epic's by Roy Delgado, another brilliant Klipsch engineer. I had them all, but, I am so much happier with the Lascala design ( with modifications and upgrades ). The Simon Mears Ucello are based on the Klipsch Belle, and the big Voltis ( Vitori I believe ), are based on the Klipsch Lascala, both taken to extreme levels of superiority. Nothing like these full range horns, imo, even though help is needed at the last octave. I have not heard either the Ucello or the Vitori, but I can imagine how wonderful they both are. But amazingly as it sounds ( no pun intended ), when I listen to my system, I am so happy with the " total " presentation, as, they do just what I want, and, this is why we are all individuals and personalities at this. Funny story : I was at the "96 Stereophile show at the N.Y. Waldorf, as the demo guy, and a presenter, of the Jadis room. A friend of mine was the importer, and owned the gear. He and his partner asked me to do it ( I was honored ). Owning another pair of Lascalas at the time, and, was a public speaker in the audio field, they though I would be an asset. The designer and engineer of the Eurythmie 4 way horn loaded speaker was there, as well as two other Jadis designers and engineers. I was in heaven, let me tell you. But, it was so difficult setting up the system, and, as it turned out, the walls of the room, could not handle the volume and dynamic range this system was capable of. I brought many of my cds ( only source ), green marked, and damped, and of my many selections, two were standouts selected by the speaker designer. The Harper Brothers " Remembrance, Live At The Village Vanguard ", and, Roger Waters " The Pro's And Con's of Hitch Hiking ". Two of my reference, for the music, and, for system set up ( and capability ). Well, turns out , the speaker designer, throughout the many days of the show, would have me play tracks 4 and 5 of R.W's, TPACOHH, but, he took over of the volume controls ( the most gorgeous and smooth feeling controls I have ever experienced, btw ), and let her rip. How many times we were asked to turn it down, by hotel management, and other exhibitors. Why am I telling this story. Well, I spent time ( before, during and after the show hours ), to listen to a Jadis " top of the line ", completely " all tube " electronics front end, a horn system ( although the woofer sections were not horn designs ),the most beautiful, at that time that I have ever seen, or heard ), in a room, that was so poor, I, by the end of the show, I had one takeaway ( actually, two ). 1st take away. I had, in front of me, a system that cost more than my house ( more of a reality, than a takeaway ). 2nd take away. A system like this ( or even a more modest system like mine, which was horn based ), can uncover things to recorded music, that can create a lifelike representation of the real thing, unlike anything else ( to these ears ). Two caveats : Keep the volume moderate, and, to have the best designed room available. Done for now, and, thanks for reading. MrD |
In response to the OP, I think the 'controversy' goes back quite a few years, when the majority of commercially available horn speakers had a honky, nasally sound. I had this impression myself, from years of working in mid-fi and only being exposed to what was available at that level. More recently, I have had the pleasure of hearing quite a few of the high end horn speakers (Avantgarde Acoustics, Cessaro, Acapella, and others) at audio shows, and my mind has been changed. |
Just an FYI. Peter Noerback, of PBN Audio, introduced recently, a " horn " hybrid loudspeaker, using JBL pro drivers. He has used all of his listening and engineering prowess, to build a cabinet and crossover, to accommodate these drivers, resulting in, what he says, is the " best " he has ever designed. I think this says a lot about horn designs. Reminds me of the Epic CF4s I was owned ( although a D' Appolito design ) as, they have been mentioned in this post by another, claiming of all the speakers that have come and gone, these has stayed the longest, and he gets the most satisfaction out of them. No one here is claiming that horns are perfect ( I sure am not ), but I still say, with all else being excellent ( room, equipment, tweaks and such, horns do more good, than bad, in recreating a live musical event, if this is the sound you want, and this, is what you feel it should sound like ( of course, still personal ). Still, not for everybody. I value listeners, of all backgrounds and experiences, to select what they like. Again, this is what our hobby is all about. Sorry for my posts today, I suppose, I am in a passionate mood ( unfortunately ), I do not have a woman with me at the moment. MrD |
Can you suggest a few good horn models? Charney Audio Maestro and Companion http://charneyaudio.com/speakers.html |
As noted many of the main stream mags stay away from horns here’s a tid bit from Art Dudley for Stereophile on Charney Audio at CAF last month... “After the Capital Audio fest vintage seminar and my visit to Vinyl Revivers, I looked at my phone and saw that time was running out: I had just over three hours left to cover seven or eight more rooms. Time to get cracking! I remembered Charney Audio from a previous show: based in Somerset, New Jersey and run by designer Brian Charney, they specialize in horn-loaded, full-range speakers and low-power amplifiers—and the last time I heard their products, I thought the company had considerable promise. Based on what I heard at CAF 2017, Charney has upped his game even further: the sound from the company's Companion Mk.II loudspeaker ($12,000/pair as shown, with optional Voxativ AF 2.6 drivers and maple veneer and hardwood accents; other versions start at $5850/pair), driven by a pre-production Charney amp and fed by a Japanese Sparkler Audio 503 CD player ($1500), with cabling by Jena Labs, sounded clear, detailed, and very tactile and present—but without the shout that plagues other Lowther-like designs. The system had a somewhat light balance, but was richer than the last Charney system I heard—and actually did a creditable job on a recording of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in d. Worth checking out.” Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/art-wraps-it-caf2017#c3RxZYCjpA4YObBG.99 |
I came across the JTR Noesis 210RT Speaker horn speaker on YouTube. They go for about $2300. They sound nice as far as I can tell and I'd like to hear them soon. All the best, Nonoise |
With such interest and many major manufacturers starting to offer horns or wave guide loudspeakers its been my experience that horn systems for audiophile use are on the increase. Despite the obstacles to horn ownership. I see more interest in forums more offerings more options I see reviewers and industry folks running horns systems. |
johnk, Thank you for the very good list of current horn speaker/driver manufacturers. I recently got to hear a system built with new G.I.P Laboratories drivers and they should be on your list. The system I heard had an 18" field coil woofer in an open baffle arrangement, a WE 555 replica midrange compression driver (the horn was a copy of a YL wooden horn) and a replica WE 597 tweeter. The three field coil drivers were powered by a newly built tungar power supply. This is a fantastic sounding system. What was surprising to me is how good the 597 replica tweeter sounded (I did not expect the tweeter to make that much of a difference). I am looking into this tweeter for my system, and maybe, the 555 compression driver (I currently run WE 713b for the midrange). |
In answer to the original question: Perhaps because there are some trolls who seem to try and use these threads as bait to trap those who don"t share their love of horns: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/why-not-horns?highlight=horns ^I seem to recall that some other posts that might have been edited out. And, on this thread: page 1 11-21-2017 10:43pm page 2 12-01-2017 9:44am Been here. Done this. No thanks. To those that like them; rest assured, knowing that you won't have to worry about outbidding me on the next set of desirable to you horns appearing on auction, or waiting for my custom pair to be completed before they can start on yours. |
"People with beer budgets won’t get to experience nice horn speakers so for most it is a moot subject. To do one right requires proper system matching from top to bottom with quality components." I happen to have a "beer budget", though a fine craft beer budget, and for the price I paid for my speakers and quality components, the sound that these rigs can obtain is very listenable and pleasing without harshness. What I don't get is why can't those that love their horn loaded(fully or hybrid) speakers love their horn loaded speakers? I happen to really like my Klipsch speakers(Heresy I, Heresy II, RF-63, RB-75) because they sound pretty darn good to me with their selected amplification in their selected rooms. Bill |
Wow guys what's with all the luv? I have read through the pages and it absolutely amazes me with some of the childish behavior. Who cares - there is no perfect speaker period, most have their preference which is fine - does that make another inferior? no. It's a personal preference - pick your poison and enjoy! I noticed allot replying do not have ownership experience and just enjoy pushing those keys and in my opinion just lack credibility. Many wonder why so many of us do not contribute anymore - try being constructive. I read one poster referring to specific Avantgarde speakers making his ears bleed - please what a joke and so misleading to others reading. When I read such nonsense clearly demonstrates credibility. You can read through my years of past postings, I have owned many speaker designs - I appreciate what they have to offer. Currently I own a pair of Avantgarde (yes horn speakers) current XD design and I'm very happy! Never thought I would own because of my past experience but with keeping an open mind find them to be very nice indeed. Have them being driven by ARC 75SE and paired up with REF6 |
I believed then, and now, that those trolls that come on here ( and other forums for that matter ) and try to ruin the party, are lacking, in some way, their manhood. There is just no other explanation. I believe these forums are to exchange insight, opinions and experiences, giving recommendations, and often, promoting a new piece of gear, or type of gear. But the bashing, does not make sense, other than my thoughts that there is " no other explanation ". |
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@unsound
Your first reply to that thread was: I absolutely loathe horns! Not exactly an inviting outset for further conversation on the subject, but nonetheless a clear statement on your stance. I don’t know whether the OP of linked thread (or others there) ever came to ask you this in earnest, but why, if you were to elaborate a bit, do you resent the sound of horns? I’m simply curious. Is it horn-hybrids in particular, or all-horns equally - perhaps even more? Are there aspects of horn sound that triggers your resentment more than others? Ever heard horn speakers (hybrids, all-horns?) that appealed to you more than to lead to the thought of simply hating on them? You claim to provide an answer to @johnk, but still this hasn't happened. Why don't we start here? |
@unsound
Thanks for your reply. Still, I'm sincerely interested in being offered a more detailed approach on your dislike of horn speakers, as I'm sure others (certainly the OP) are as well. I'm not trying to convert you as I'm not on a mission here, but find it inspiring to learn of the particular aspects and frame of reference (i.e.: experience) that leads some people to turn their backs on horny sound, so to speak - in all its varying forms (though I'm some will find they're all of the same, homogeneous evil). Feel free to chime in. |
I owned, a very long time ago, a pair of Thiel 3.5s, along with, what I thought was a great combo / matchup with the Thiels, a Krell KSA 50, upgraded to a MK II, and then a KSA 100 MKII. I owned Lascalas at the time ( and another roomful of others, ). Ultimately, the Thiels went, as many speakers have. Not for me. I appreciate what they do, and, can understand why people keep them ( or any Thiel, or Focal, or anything ). As an audio professional for many years, I never " pushed " horns on anybody, although, I let them know my preference for them, and helped them achieve the sound that best suited them, whether horns, or otherwise. Folks who went the horn route, I helped with modifications, upgrades and tweaks, to maximize the design. Admittedly, many stock horn loudspeakers had resonances ( not just the horns, but the cabinets as well, from many companies, such as Klipsch, Altec, JBL, etc. ), and mediocre crossover components, and failed, the listening test by many. I really understand this, because, a stock pair of Klipsch Lascala ( my favorite Heritage, or any stock product ), can be improved upon. These weaknesses were the result of a selling price point. So, I understand the negative reaction many people have to horns. I admit that the room, setup, associated gear, and listener distance, all play an important part of the equation. But, this pertains to any large, full range loudspeaker, ime. Why do the horn trolls act up ? Besides what I said earlier in another post, they are clueless to what a well designed horn " system " can do. |
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kosst, no one here has ever used the term " perfect ", to describe horns, but, have shown " passion " for their attributes, and more important, preferences to us listeners. There is much passion, all over the ' Gon, about other items and categories as well. This hobby, is all a means, for each of us, to attain the sound each of us is looking for, to bring our recorded music closer to " the real thing ", whatever that might be. Should not be a right or wrong. So, my question to you, would be : Why do you care ? As for the OP ( John K ), I do not see him visiting the Thiel forums, or the Focal forums, telling all those owners that they are deaf, and need to develop a good set of ears. Just stay away, or behave, and all will be good. |
