A thread on horns draws those interested in horns so overall more positive things would be said about horns. At the same time it also draws those who are opposed to horns in such a way that they follow any threads on horns posting negative. And that is fine but if all that you get out of these threads is a inability to understand why some have enthusiasm about horns and not even noticing that many including me in the thread orignal ?{ They can solve many issues that plague standard designs but with all things have there own } but with all things have there own would mean horns also have issues so why all the fuss? Why keep insisting that those who enjoy horns never say anything negative when its in the title thread post?
Horn based loudspeakers why the controversy?
As just another way to build a loudspeaker system why such disputes in forums when horns are mentioned? They can solve many issues that plague standard designs but with all things have there own. So why such hate? As a loudspeaker designer I work with and can appreciate all transducer and loudspeaker types and I understand that we all have different needs budgets experiences tastes biases. But if you dare suggest horns so many have a problem with that suggestion..why?
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@unsound Phusis, I respectfully suggest you read the thread I previously hyper-linked. I did read the thread back then with its some 1000 replies or 20 pages, but many of the details herein are amiss in my mind, including whether poster @macrojack ever got to address you on the matter I inquired on above, as well as your elaborate replies. I thought it easier or more practical for all involved in this thread to have you make a rundown of sorts on your views on horns, but I can understand why you wouldn’t want to repeat (and reduce) yourself in this effort - on a type of speaker you loath, no less. I’ve dug up some of your replies from the old thread in question (I hope that’s OK?), where I’ve found them to be able to stand on their own, though some of them (which I’ve put in parenthesis) may be dependable to some degree on the specific post-context for a deeper understanding: Midrange purity of horns? Ha! You can’t be serious. Well, those are some of your replies going to page 4 (of 20), and there’s a lot more in there. I’ve omitted posts of yours with more theoretical detailing (also due to their heavy context), not that they mayn't be important (on their own), but I’m somehow skeptical of the accuracy and translatability of theory in support of listening impressions. I’ll refrain from any comment on your views this moment, as the hour is late here (01:30am local time), but I’ll get back. Perhaps others will be "inspired" by some of your quoted views here in the meantime, and please, folks, while avoiding a flaming war. |
phusis, I have had my time with unsound. I really do believe, either, he has not heard a proper horn " set up ", or, he just does not like them ( even loathes them ). He is entitled. Just do not understand some of these folks, and why it bothers them so much, that many of us are enjoying our systems, that they need to " troll ". Ignore him, as he will take up much of your time, when you can be listening to music ( happily ). |
This isn't a thread about horns. This is a thread about the controversy surrounding horns. I've presented a wide variety of reasons and opinions that have been systematically challenged every single time. Yet when somebody else reiterates a point similar to mine it isn't challenged or debated. Sometimes quite the opposite. But I'm the troll. Some of you would attack me for claiming the sky is blue just because I said it. Dynamic speakers absolutely smash horns into the ground in terms of volume of media attention, sales, and conversation. Why do dynamic loudspeakers practically own the speaker market at every price point? You can't understand the controversy if you can't answer that question. |
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There's nothing wrong with horns that a little effort can't fix. Altec A-7 VOTTs can be made to sound good, same with Altec Valencias, JBL L300s etc., but they do need work, better crossovers, bracing, damping etc.. Vintage horn systems with folded bass horns, like Klipschorns, Vitavox and EV Klipschorns and JBL Hartsfields, can sound very very good especially in big rooms. My old Hartsfields even sounded great in my very small front room. Powered by a 2w/ch set45 amp they had excellent bass... but they were not not the last word as far as audiophile stuff, detail, imaging etc.. I use dipole bass speakers in my big-room horn system - four 15" woofers in open back boxes go deeper and sound more realistic than folded horns like Hartsfields do in the same room. Throw in field coil drivers on conical mid horns and my horn system sounds good. Really good. Like super high end studio monitors, but better. I wouldn't trade my DIY horns for TOTL Magicos. (I would definitely trade my system for Magico's mega horn system. Not that they would fit in my house.) |
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One advantage of horns suitable for home listening is narrow dispersion. Wide dispersion is not good for center-chair listening. Horns beam like lasers, and to me this is a good thing, fewer nasty sidewall reflections. I am not into wide-dispersion party speakers. My DIY 3.5-way hybrid dipole-conical horn+ field coil driver system images better than ANY conventional 'wide-dispersion' speakers, narrow or wide baffle, single driver or multiway I've ever heard. My hybrid-horn system does spooky 3-D realistic imaging. Extreme low level detail retreival. Startling dynamic contrast. All the audiophile goodies. Seems to me you've never heard a really good horn system. Too bad. |
Kosst, you said this : " Sure, there's things they could do better, but I like what they do and they work well in the space I have ". A comment you made about your Focals. I could really talk about, in so many ways, why they " are not for me ". But I don't. Enjoy, and be merry with what you have. You are a troll. |
I am thoroughly enjoying my new Klipsch Heresy lll... I have had a number of speakers in the past, bigger, smaller, more expensive but none have been more engaging and fun to listen to. Are they perfect? No ... Do they measure flat? No..... but they sound great. I was growing tired of chasing the "perfect sound" which I have come to realize is not possible given my room and budget. Are these the last speakers I'll ever own? Probably not, but with two kids in college and possibly downsizing in the near future these ARE perfect for me . I will say this, I will never sell these, they are just to much fun to listen to..... |
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I’ve always felt that a properly set up horn system can give some of the best 3D sound because of its inherent high directionality and ability to avoid comb filtering. I heard a set of Sadurni Acoustics Speakers set up well and the image was absolutely stunning; best I’ve ever heard until I moved one seat to the left or right and the effect was lost. So their great strengths are also their greatest weakness in my opinion. They are gorgeous to look at. If the system was made just for me I’d seriously think about getting a set as I wouldn’t need all the hoops I’ve jumped through to get the same image albeit for a larger audience. |
Listening as a primary activity is rare indeed sometimes I trick people into doing so I turn on the big shearer horns sit them in best spot and say be back in a few mins. More than one who think the hobby crazy has understood why I pursue after but not one has changed how they listen just they sort of understand why I do. |
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@soundsrealaudio I like horns, except for the fact that they sound shouty, forward, bright, beamy. The older style wood Klp type speakers sound boarning, slow, heavy and us resolving. I do like them however, I am no hater. That’s classical "generalized BS," as stated by poster @dev , wrapped in candy paper. You might as well have written, or it essentially says: "I hate horns, but I do like them." And now a bunch of people are flying off their couches, pointing their fingers, and telling us we’re overly defensive of horn speakers? Come on, going by your description as quoted above I can only deduce you’ve never heard a good horn speaker, be it hybrid or all-horn, and just assembled the "best of horn-bashing terms" in a bundle and delivered it handily. With "older style wood Klp type speakers," are you referring to Klipsch? And with "older style" (i.e.: Heritage series?) - do you mean the all-horns (they’re certainly included)? And you equate those speakers with " boarning (boring?), slow, heavy and us resolving"? I’m sorry to put this bluntly, but that’s simply a load of b*llocks. Compared to an all-horn Klipsch (i.e.: La Scala, Belle, K-horn), be they up to 50-70 years old, most anything contemporary non-horn will sound sluggish, slow, heavy and boring. The older Klipsch horns could ring like bells in the mids and highs, and if not paired with quality tube amps (and instead with SS amps of the time then) could be a trying and unpleasant listen, I’m sure, but the aforementioned traits stand the test of time no matter what, and still by a winning mile compared to most of the direct radiating speakers of today. And, when you combine those traits with the newer horn profiles of today, better (more sturdy) horn materials, better cross-overs, even better drivers for the midrange and tweeter and an overall better construction quality (not that the original Klipsch’s were bad as such) - such as seen with Simon Mears Audio, Volti Audio and others - you have yourself a blisteringly good sonic package. I can only assume though telling you this will be all in vain. |
@johnk I've had some experiences like that. My mom thought I was nuts for buying the stuff I have until I parked her in front of it and played her favorite music. She got the chills and tears and no more explanation was needed. No matter how you cut the cake, we do this to have strong emotional experiences. It's no surprise people get fired up about how they do that. |
@phusis The old Klipsch stuff is exactly why people have the opinions they do today about horns and I think denying that is simply intellectually dishonest. I'm sure I'll get crucified for pointing this out, but there isn't even consensus in the horn camp about what good horns and bad horns are. If you read over this thread you see some saying horn hybrids suck, but others love them. Some say the vintage ones are good. Others say good horns require advanced engineering and exceptional materials. And at some point somebody has said some horn is great so many times here practically every horn ever made has been named. I'll bet I could take this crowd and put them in a room and see debates about just horns become as heated as horns vs dynamic drivers. |
@kosst_amojan The old Klipsch stuff is exactly why people have the opinions they do today about horns and I think denying that is simply intellectually dishonest. I hope the intent with my reply above to poster @soundsrealaudio was absolutely clear. As you point out the older Klipsch horns are particularly "memorable" for their sonic behavior, so much indeed as to be used continuously as a case in a contemporary debate for the proposed failings of horn speakers. Surely there’s an anachronism at play here, right? My gripe with the aim at the older Klipsch stuff by named poster were the exact areas pointed out by him; not some others for which they’re so disliked - depending though on the context. I’m sure I’ll get crucified for pointing this out, but there isn’t even consensus in the horn camp about what good horns and bad horns are. If you read over this thread you see some saying horn hybrids suck, but others love them. Some say the vintage ones are good. Others say good horns require advanced engineering and exceptional materials. And at some point somebody has said some horn is great so many times here practically every horn ever made has been named. I’ll bet I could take this crowd and put them in a room and see debates about just horns become as heated as horns vs dynamic drivers. No arguing here, I believe you are right in pointing this out, but as you can see the diversity of opinion and actual representation (of horn speakers) in such a discussion hardly justifies calling all horn/-hybrids under the same banner as in "all horns suck," just as well as claiming that "all horns are great" would seem dubious. I don’t see a consensus in this thread where a differentiated approach to horn sound is argued, but rather that a one-sided bashing is severely, and rightfully opposed. I have also seen proponents (i.e.: makers) of horns go on to claim that only their specific approach to horns is what produces the right sound, but you have to wonder whether this isn’t truly and solely in the interest of their own business, rather than attempting an objective take on the potential of a variety of viable horn approaches (as a marketing ploy it’s certainly easier to claim the proficiency of a single approach rather than several). Navigating in all this dispute even, which is also a condition among other speakers principles, shouldn’t detract from the fact that there are people liking horn speakers for "sound" reasons, one way or the other, and using, say, appeal to the masses arguments won’t carve in stone tablets what’s inherently right or (typically accused) wrong with horn sound. You have to ask yourself the difference of context for people to make their claims; what’s the true observation here going by the same premise or set of conditions, apart from what’s merely taste? Hardly a realistic outlook, and as such much of the source for the wild debate. It’s a complicated matter indeed, but one that with effort(!) is still manageable to (hopefully) be a little wiser about. |
@mrdecibel , 311 posts12-05-2017 12:40pmI find the Heresy to be a puzzle. A slow, air suspension, 12 in. woofer, mated to a midrange and tweeter horn.I never understood this quandary regarding hybrid designs. Why in theory should a dynamic cone woofer not work well with a horn midrange and tweeter. Klipsch is far from the only manufacturer that uses such designs. I realize PWK was staunch in his belief that all drivers should be horn loaded (hence the Heresy name), but other than lower bass response and ultimate sensitivity, the horn loaded woofer doesn't offer any advantages that I'm aware of. Also, an air suspension helps to create fast bass, nothing slow about it. |
helomech, I did say the Heresy worked, in the next sentence. Believe what you want, but, IMO, the Lascala, the Belle, and even the Vittori and Simon Mears, have a bass that is more musical, and coherent, between the bass and mid horn, than many. I love hybrids, and there are many I could probably live with. This is just my opinion. Enjoy your Heresys, as they are IMO, the best out there, at the price, and size ( I have owned many Heresys, mostly series 1, and some series 2. I have heard the series 3. If you PM me, I can give you a pointer or two on how to bring them to the next level ( however, if you bought them new, I would not want you to void the warranty ). Enjoy ! MrD |
Dynamic speakers absolutely smash horns into the ground in terms of volume of media attention, sales, and conversation. Why do dynamic loudspeakers practically own the speaker market at every price point? You can't understand the controversy if you can't answer that question.Sure- and to be fair, 90% of those speakers are sold at Best Buy and similar; and really aren't 'high end'. My speakers at home are a lot more expensive that anything sold in a box shop. Horns were pretty well the only game in town in the old days. Tubes were the only game in town too. Tube power is expensive- so doing the most with it pays off on the speaker end. Horns are still around because if you can build them right, they are as low distortion as anything out there, just as three dimensional and revealing, and a plus is they can play a lot louder- still a good thing, as tube power is still more expensive than solid state and tubes are still very much around! |
Yes horn people have a over all general consensus those who have experienced much know whats good or bad in horns and how to use them. But you still have the pro-audio gents who look at vintage as crazy you have the klipsch crowd and those who only pursue the most modern but over all if you have enough experience in horns we tend to agree whats good and not. Many horns are modular so a experienced user can combine these modules together to reach a end goal this also allows for user upgrades far more than conventional designs do and I think this hands on and ease of upgrades and optimization is appealing to some. |
@atmasphere ... a plus is they [i.e.: horns] can play a lot louder ... Indeed, and by a wide margin, but importantly it’s also how this ability (not least as a product of much higher sensitivity) translates into a sense of effortlessness not only at elevated SPL’s, but at more "sane" playback levels as well. There seems not to be much awareness or even conscious appreciation of this crucial trait in sound reproduction, ease, which is a shame given how much say it has into setting the music free as a musical event "just happening" in front of you. Lastly, and at the opposite end of the SPL scale, horns very often excel with their sense of aliveness and "ignition" (also an overlooked trait) at lower volumes, which really gives them an advantage over the whole spectrum of playback level in this regard. |
it’s also how this ability (not least as a product of much higher sensitivity) translates into a sense of effortlessness not only at elevated SPL’s, but at more "sane" playback levels as well.+1 When we first got our Classic Audio Loudspeakers, this was one of the properties we noticed almost right away. |
I have enjoyed owning numerous different designed speakers over the past 20+ years including MBL's for a long time which I really like. I have found with some horn designs there are areas which they offer more similarities than differences sonic wise as mentioned above by a few in the last posts. Another area I like about my current speakers is being 107 dB so this opens up a new window of so many options of pairing up with lower powered amplification where this wasn't so with my MBL's to produce the sonic characteristics I was after. So far I have tried a couple of low powered including SET amplification but to date prefer ARC Ref 75SE & REF6 pre combo as a whole package - so far hasn't left me missing anything where as others did. Are they the end all? no! but besides the sonic offerings neither pce produces much if any heat - nice looking to me - tubes provide lots of listening life. I just enjoy listening which in the end it's all about. |
@dev Holy cow! Did you move on from your MBLs? You were like my MBL-go-to-guy when researching those speakers. You had them with the reference VAC amps, didn't you? I have MBL 121 monitors, me chance for a helping of the MBL sound. Though I mainly use Thiel speaker at the moment. I know I'll never sell the MBLs as they are too unique (and I'd never get them for anything near the same price). Did you sell your MBLs or do you still have them? Which speakers are you using now? Sounds like horns? |
Why I use a massive community leviathan with 4 altec 515b and massive multicell with tad in my office system is how wonderful horns can sound at low levels as well as high with very low listener fatigue I use them all day long. A big horn sounds full and real even at low levels I have not found any dynamic that is even close and I get to use some of the best with the most modern transducers. With conventional dynamics I have to play louder to get a full sound and after a hour or so fatigue sets in. |
Just got a pair of Heresy III "Capitol Special Edition" speakers…unboxed last night actually (late…traveling and they'd been left on my porch…thanks USPS Sunday delivery!..man…). I any case, I'd ordered the regular black ones but they (Ebay "open box" utter score…seriously) sent the "Special Edition" ebony version instead which is good since I'm clearly special. They're not broken in yet I assume, and I'm using them with my 12 watt per side SEP amp. There must be something wrong with me (yeah, I know…what EVER) as I think they're sort of great sounding. Imaging is astonishing, no horn "beaming" particularly (all speakers unless specifically omni designs have some directionality…they just do), coherant (unlike myself), efficient as advertised, and they fit my current beatnik life style (although I can't get facial hair going to any degree my wife will accept, I listen to jazz almost exclusively, own a Triumph Bonneville, smoke pot, and wear black a lot). If there's anything wrong with these Heresys I haven't noticed it yet, they meld well with my 2 REL subs, don't have the feared "midrange hump" I've read about, and seem like they'll do fine until I get those cool-man Classic Audio things Atmasphere talks about. Somehow I think the way speakers sound when music is played through them is important, but others may feel differently…heh heh…highly recommended to anybody who is exactly like me. |
Wolf, these? http://www.klipsch.com/products/capitol-heresy-iii Those are exactly the ones I would go for. Sounds like you got them for a nice discount. If they don't work out, I might take them off your hands. Seriously! Now you can try those fancy fuses again to go with the fancy speakers as well! What are they replacing again? Enjoy! |
Congrats on the Klipsch Specials Wolf. I was looking at those for a while as well as the JBL 4319 monitors over at MusicDirect. I'm tired of trying to find that speaker that fits the audiophile mold and just enjoy the music like I used to when younger. I particularly like the low slung look: very mid century which matches my living room. Do you think that 7 1/2' back and about 8' apart would work in a small room and is the bass reinforced enough to bring it up to the level of the horns presence? All the best, Nonoise |
dev That rant was just my personal opinion from the experiences I have had with horns. I do love some of them for their incredible midrange, but then after about a month I just got worn out. The others were old school, folded horns, Those did help me sleep. Jim Dealer of the month............don't ask which month........ |
soundsrealaudio ak Jim you really are digging a deeper and deeper hole for your self clearly demonstrating any lack of credibility as a dealer - I recall meeting you at a RMAF show where you were overly enthusiastic hyping up what I feel is a way over priced speaker design you were representing. Was a pleasant conversation - you were knocking down all other speakers feeling yours were the be all BEST! which is so far from the truth. When I listened briefly TRYING TO HEAR what you were conveying actually clearly described what you have wrote in both of your posting generalizing all horn design speakers which I find is so ironic and funny! You must wonder why others in the hobby are not interested in such - maybe use your time and energy by starting your own speaker thread - you will quickly find out what people think or possibly get no replies. |
This is not the 1st thread concerning horns here on the "Gon, as pointed out by phusis. There will always be listeners, who admittedly or not, have had any or no reasonable experience with horns in the home. Those who have, going back years, probably did not hear the qualities they were looking for.
12-10-2017 1:17pm" I like horns, except for the fact that they sound shouty, forward, bright, beamy. The older style wood Klp type speakers sound boarning, slow, heavy and us resolving ". This was stated by soundsrealaudio, and, I understand some of his comment. We horn users, however, do not like this feedback, and honestly, I have known many listeners in my lifetime who have felt the same. johnk started this thread, and in the title, invited those naysayers ( some are just trolls ), to speak up. I have educated many, and have tried to with others, on the merits of horns, but never, in an argumentative way, to sway them ' my way ". I admit to have been " taken in " to some of these horn trolls here, and defending myself, which now, as I look back, was immature of myself. The simplicity of it all, is, there are those who simply remember the ' old days " of horns, when they were set up with high powered ss amps, in rooms that were acoustically poor, and this is their memory. Of course, some have little experience with a proper audition as well. As far as I am concerned, now, it is just their loss. I was introduced to Khorns in my low teens, and it has been a journey ever since, to find a loudspeaker that I appreciated more. I have had many, sold many, installed many, and, have enjoyed many. But none IMO, IMO IMO, has done what I discovered to be " my liking ". I became a tweaker almost immediately, with horn and cabinet damping, and, eliminated nasties that were present. And, this is what my hobby was all about. Are horns perfect ? Absolutely not, but horns ( good horns, most of them hybrids ), do more right, than wrong, in recreating a " live musical experience " than anything else, " for me ". And this, is the key statement. " For Me ". I was lucky to be around music listeners ( some of them audiophiles ), at an early age. I was also lucky to be involved in the industry ( during high school, college, and afterwoods ), where I gained much 1st hand experience. This gave me the advantage to find what I was looking for. Anyway, the next horn thread should be titled " What do we like about our horns ? ". I guarantee you, there will still be trolls showing up, with their BS. I am very sorry with my rant, and my imperfect writing skills. Always, Dan ( MrD ). |
So Mapman…if you or If anybody is looking for a pair of these damn things (Heresy IIIs) I don’t mind sharing the fact that I got them from Ebay as a pair from a supposed "authorized" dealer (the 5 year Klipsch warranty is supported they say). I was not in a hurry to get these, but the free shipping also nudged me, and they’re the least expensive "open box" pair listed so you should be ably to find ’em if you wish. That seller also gives you until late January to return them with no lame re-stocking fee, you just pay for the shipping. They arrived in 4 days (!) from Nevada (Somehow Amazon was involved which meant USPS delivered them on a Sunday! A day earlier than tracking indicated…surprise!) to my house outside Boston, and were "cryoed" as they sat on my porch for a night as I was returning from a trip…I let them thaw before opening. Not sure if the Capitol Edition thing was simply luck (normally they list for 500 bucks more than the "normal" version, something I would not pay for since they're' exactly the same components as regular Heresys), or if they just have a pile of those. The grills seem patterned after a sweater I used to have, and the finish is a weird "Ebony" that looks like dark purple…sort of…but I like 'em. |
Nonoise….I tested these with a tone from my trusty old Stereophile test CD and they do go lower than the ratings state (there's some signal to the 40s certainly), and mine aren't near corners as I have my subs (off during the test of course). Note that since horns are projecting mids and highs to your face it renders "first reflections" less of an issue, and the 12" is sealed so it really pops…I listened to these in a shop and they were in corners and do well ("I have no corners, I can turn on a dime" paraphrasing Lowell…sorry). I took one of these apart today and they're well made with seemingly nice wire that looks like thick single strand Monster cable from 1982. Cool. |
soundsrealaudio aka Jim just stop with your false generalization statements towards all horn designed speakers as you have wrote because it's far from being true and comes across as a troll - revert back to your own speakers and put the time and energy into schlepping them. For a dealer such as your self to be posting as you have only demonstrates your credibility and hurts your reputation once individuals know who you are, individuals can just look at your past postings, read to figure it out. Any dealer or manufacture posting it should be mandatory they add their affiliation signature at the bottom of each posting so readers know, makes a difference for others like myself whom are just end users. F.Y.I. When at a show your product should speak for it's self - you shouldn't have to lower your self putting down others, you were pleasant though and we did have a nice conversation but your system well that was a different story. |
