I just bought a new CD player and was underwhelmed with it compared to my cheaper, lower quality CD player. That’s when it hit me that my cheaper CD player is using an upgraded power cable. When I put an upgraded power cable on my new CD player, the sound was instantly transformed: the treble was tamed, the music was more dynamic and lifelike, and overall more musical.
This got me thinking as to how in the world a power cable can affect sound. I want to hear all of your ideas. Here’s one of my ideas:
I have heard from many sources that a good power cable is made of multiple gauge conductors from large gauge to small gauge. The electrons in a power cable are like a train with each electron acting as a train car. When a treble note is played, for example, the small gauge wires can react quickly because that “train” has much less mass than a large gauge conductor. If you only had one large gauge conductor, you would need to accelerate a very large train for a small, quick treble note, and this leads to poor dynamics. A similar analogy might be water in a pipe. A small pipe can react much quicker to higher frequencies than a large pipe due to the decreased mass/momentum of the water in the pipe.
That’s one of my ideas. Now I want to hear your thoughts and have a general discussion of why power cables matter.
If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please.
The power cable thing is too funny. So much nonsense and "woo". And the money spent has really no sane connection with reality. Talk about a bad value, cables are the ultimate sucker buy.
Nope, he never said it. What’s the matter with you, don’t like the Circus? Afraid of the clowns? 🤡 One womders why naysayers think PT Barnum was a con artist. He was actually a very savvy marketing genius.
@2010challenger I want that to be the case. I really do. Let me share my experience with you that led me to this crazy path:
On the advice of an internet forum, I changed my generic, cheapo stranded core speaker cables to generic, cheapo solid core speaker cables and appreciated the change in sound - particularly the increase in treble detail. Cost to me: a few bucks. After hearing that, I wondered what solid core RCA cables would do to the sound. I considered building my own but opted to spend around $60 for a pair of well-shielded, solidly-build solid core RCA cables that got 5 star reviews. I heard a significant improvement and I liked what it did to the sound. At this point, I was actually upset because I came to know that cables matter. I didn’t want to spend money on cables. I didn’t want them to matter, but they do for better or worse. After my speaker cable and interconnect escapade, I read many 5 star reviews on a power cable made by the same company as my interconnects. The interconnect reviews were accurate which made me put some trust in the power cable reviews. I figured the worst that could happen is that they wouldn’t do anything and I could return them for the cost of shipping. I recieved the garden hose, err, I mean, power cable in the mail and put them on my amplifier... the improvement was unmistakeable. Did my system sound good before the power cable? Yes. Did it sound better after the cable. Absolutely! So here I am questioning how in the hell a cable that isn’t even in the signal chain improves the sound and watching as forum members take snipes at each other akin to religious furor, thinking “what have I gotten myself into?” Happy listening!
In my experience....power cables matter - sometimes. There was absolutely no difference in swapping power cords on the power supply to my turntables, or my Vandersteen speakers.....but they made a difference for the positive on my Ayre electronics.
Now, I realize that what I’m about to say is going to rub some people the wrong way. (Hey, I’m a poet and don’t know it.) One reason power cords sound good in one system but not another, I.e., why people get differing results with even expensive power cords is because they are directional. So, unless the manufacturer, I.e., Audioquest, controls the power cords for wire directionality the odds are 50% that a given power cord will sound like it’s supposed to and 50% that it will sound worse than it could sound. It might even sound yukky. It could make the sound worse if the previous power cord was accidentally constructed properly directionality wise.
" So here I am questioning how in the hell a cable that isn’t even in the signal chain improves the sound"
So far I haven't heard any compelling explanation. Lots of experts and savants with different opinions but no plausible reason for the perceived effect.
And the money spent has really no sane connection with reality.
I don’t disagree with you on that. Cost doesn’t necessarily correlate with performance. You don’t need to spend $20,000 on a power cable. I think that’s where the industry gets a bad name, especially when the manufacturer doesn’t provide any technical specs but just says “trust us.” I think it’s more so about gauge, geometry and material which can cost a few bucks. If you go try to make an RCA interconnect with high quality connectors, silver wire, good shielding, etc you may end up with a bill for $200. In that case I have no issues with a cable company charging $250-$300 for that cable if the material, labor and markup are justifiable.
Exactly! I can buy into the speaker cable and the interconnect having an effect on the sound but if the power cable to changes the sound in a measurable way you should throw the device in the garbage and get another one. It must have a horrible horrible power supply
So far I haven't heard any compelling explanation. Lots of experts and savants with different opinions but no plausible reason for the perceived effect.
I hadn’t either which is why I started the thread. Just so we’re on the same page, just because there is no plausible explanation doesn’t mean the effect doesn’t exist. That would be like saying “I don’t believe the sky is blue until we understand why it could be blue,” which is what I hear a lot of cable-naysayers saying. 😅
So here I am questioning how in the hell a cable that isn’t even in the signal chain improves the sound
Says who? That’s cherry picking. Remove the power cord and nothing happens. Rectification done after receiving power from said power cord is rarely done correctly (look at all the different ways it’s done: there are those who will always find fault in anyone's design) and fully so it’s going to mess with signal. Rectifiers impart tone. It’s not pure and perfect after the power cord delivers the power. Never is and never will be.
@mkgus: "Just so we’re on the same page, just because there is no plausible explanation doesn’t mean the effect doesn’t exist."
I agree completely.
But lack of a plausible explanation remains a valid reason for questioning the effect. Especially since among observers there is no consensus. So the sky analogy would be more appropriate if you included than some people found it to be a different shade of blue that many if not most people could not see. In that regard lack of plausible explanation takes on more power as a defeater. Not proof, as you say, but still reasonable evidence.
The paradox is that at some level we are talking about a technical phenomenon with no good technical explanation. That is yet another reason to question the effect.
The paradox is that at some level we are talking about atechnicalphenomenon with no goodtechnical explanation. That is yet another reason toquestionthe effect.
Indeed, it is a reason to question the phenomenon. It is also a reason to keep investigating if you believe something is going on as many believe to be the case.
I’m surprised this is still a big question mark? Why hasn’t this been solved yet? I keep getting drawn back to the 3 basic properties of wires: resistance, inductance and capacitance. Can these three alone not explain the effect fully? I’m guessing not because if it were that simple, then surely someone would have shown it to be the case already - perhaps a cable manufacturer. This would be a very simple test one could do at home with some test equipment: relate R, L and C to the “sound” of power cables.
Assuming the phenomenon can’t be fully explained by the values of resistance, inductance and capacitance, I’m left to wonder if we are measuring the right properties. Are there other properties that need measurement? Do any of the R, L and C values change dynamically along with electron flow or are they fixed at all times?
N80, I am done with prof and analogluvr, as they are no longer worth my time. I indicated that I did not like the cables in your system, because somewhere, I remember reading you mentioning the brand " Transparent ", I do not like the sound of that brand’s cables ( speaker, interconnect and power cables ). If I spoke out of line about that, I apologize. If in fact, you have after market cables ( heavier and beefier than just the computer cables I mentioned you might have lying around, I still feel it would be worth it to exchange them out, and, not for me, or anyone else. Just to see if you can hear a difference. You do not need to dissect it further as to which you prefer, just that a difference might be audible to you, or not. My biggest gripe with " those folks " who are against these differences are ( 1 ) If they never tried a different cable or ( 2 ) They tried a different cable and did not hear a difference, and then claim that these differences do not exist. I also do not believe that it is impossible for some people to believe I am an expert in this field ( the listening side ), and have such a hard time with it. My ears are likely no better than others, but my time and experience in the field has allowed me to train myself to hear very minute differences amongst all related items in audio. Keep in mind, also, that there are quite a few of me out there, as I know others. Some right here on the ’Gon. * A good friend of mine is a retired sheriff, has a huge gun collection, and teaches at a shooting range. I consider him an expert in the field of hand guns. I am clueless about guns. I have another buddy who is into automobiles ( such as yourself). He builds, and rebuilds, and rebuilds. I consider him an expert in his particular field of automobiles. He can do a mod on a suspension, or an engine, take me for a ride, and ask me if I feel a difference. Never have. Just putting this out there. I have no interest in guns; I have no interest in vehicles ( I drive a 2018 CRV Touring ). These two buddies come to me as their audio guru ( many do ). And they both spend much more money on audio than I do. I do not like making enemies, and I am pretty much an easy going guy. But, I do know what is real, " to my ears ", and anyone who says I am imagining it, well, we will go our separate ways and be done with it. As I have said to you before, in the 6 months you have been here, you have had much to say, that I find enjoyable to read. After all, it is all about the music. Never hard feelings, especially when in this hobby, and enjoyable pastime. Enjoy ! MrD.
Assuming the phenomenon can’t be fully explained by the values of resistance, inductance and capacitance, I’m left to wonder if we are measuring the right properties. Are there other properties that need measurement? Do any of the R, L and C values change dynamically along with electron flow or are they fixed at all times?
>>>>>As much as I hate to nitpick, electrons are not (rpt not) flowing. Carry on. Smoke if ya got em.
“If I could explain it to the average person they wouldn’t have given me the Nobel prize.”
The ways I would describe what the power cords have happening inside do not correlate with any current rules about power. My experience leads me to think power cords are affecting the thickness of the AC waveform. How coherent it is (ie is it fuzzy? or tight?) And this can be in multiple dimensions...As the way the wave is shown in '3D' is as a point moving steadily ahead as it rotates around a circumference.. Particularly the thick thin bit... the fuzzy clean... What words in EE lore correlate?
Having said that, if your cable CURRENT rating is not adequate enough to supply the necessary CURRENT to begin with, you MAY experience some improvement. At the end of the day, remember that the weakest link in your home is the standard 15 amp Romex wire installed in the walls.
To think we are all at the mercy of Romex makes one want to quit this hobby. We can't do a thing about it so why bother? Just buy some piece of crap from Best Buy and be done with it.
That's like saying we're all at the mercy of our roads so why bother getting a car we know can handle and ride better than the average rust bucket out there.
I’m new to this hobby, but seeing power cables priced to several thousand $ is just astonishing to me. As some users here have already said over and over: there is no way a power cable can affect your sound, unless it’s too thin, badly connected or you have a defective device.
Physics is just physics. I’d love to hear someone explain the physics how a power cable can improve sound quality. Haven’t seen any so far.
The Dakinis who dance in powered wires like better power cords. So they do a better dance than on the cheap Romex or cheap power cord. Their dance is the flow of the electricity, in other universe dimensions, so THAT is the actual reason. Some folks call them the Fairies.. When you first install new cords, it takes time for them to find the new thing, and learn the exact dance best for it. And when you move it, they find it faster, but still take a little time to establish the best dance...This explanation is not for everyone. But everyone takes part anyway.
yang_hong, for future reference, when geoffkait says "no offense" you can count on the fact that offense is intended. Also, if he doesn't say "no offense" it is still safe to assume offense is intended.
I wonder about this Romex stuff. My house is 90 years old. We've upgraded some of the wiring but not all. Probably some of what's getting to my amp is knob-and-tube. I'm telling you guys, you need to make the switch....it sounds FANTASTIC.
Why is it that almost every single time someone mentions "better powercord" the argument against it is "one costing thousand of dollars" when it is not the case?
People have got to stop framing their arguments in such a ridiculous fashion.
Oh, N80 hears the improvement with his updated house wiring. Ok, that is a start. I do caution anyone to use knob and tube wiring, as it does not sound better ( unless it was installed " dedicated " from the panel, which I believe is what he is hearing ). and certain electrical ordinances do not allow it. When building a new home, the wiring used, and " how " it is routed from the box to the dedicated sound room / theater room, will be very significant in the final results. Nonoise, the entire argument of the naysayers is ridiculous, because, they either did not try it, or tried it and heard no difference, as pointed out by N80. You and I, and a few others, know what we hear, and this thread, as far as " I "am concerned, will be ending soon. The heading of this thread is " Why ", and this is a reason for the naysayers. But interestingly, so many threads have started " wow, I hear a difference ", and the naysayers still show up as well. A joke, actually. Enjoy ! MrD.
The reference to my old house wiring was intended as humor. Sorry if it fell flat.
But in all seriousness, presuming power cables are an enhancement item, will that still work when your house system is crap? Or maybe it would make more of a difference?
nonoise, what is the actual price for what you consider a good quality aftermarket power cord? If we use that number in place of a thousand dollars are we still framing the argument in a ridiculous fashion?
Are there cords out there that cost more than that? If so, why?
Are there thousand dollar power cords? If so, why? What do you think their happy owners have to say about them? Are they ridiculous? Would you question the validity of their positive assessment of such a cord?
Is there a dollar figure, in your mind, at which point it becomes ridiculous to you? At that point would you be any different from the naysayers?
Edit: A quick Google reveals any number of 1.5 meter power cables for 5 figures. One of them is $22,500. Found a few lower end ones for $5000 to $8,500 for a full 3 meters.
N80, would you mind if I forward you information on a cord, specifically for your Proceed amp. It is from China by an excellent manufacturer, and depending on the length you need, would run under $100. I recommend them often. You could also rent one from the cable company. Listen, I have no clue why ? I am thinking your cousin who had the system before you, purchased the system from a high end shop ( possibly an expert ), who put the system together for him, as, I feel it is proportional to the cost of each piece, and I can conceivably have an idea what your system sounds like, as I am familiar with each of the components, as well as the speakers. Enjoy ! MrD.
Why is it that almost every single time someone mentions "better powercord" the argument against it is "one costing thousand of dollars" when it is not the case?
It’s a type of logical fallacy called a “straw man.” In effect, they set up an argument that is supposed to encompass the opposition opinion but is actually distorted or exaggerated making it easy to “knock down” or refute and then they strut around like they won the argument. Some may not even know they are doing it.
As for the rest of n80's argument, don't conflate what someone buys and is happy with with the "straw man" argument that mkgus states.
I could care less and even be happy for anyone who bought a great PC for $1K or even more. It's their money and I'm not in the least jealous about it. In fact, if I had the disposable income, I'd try out PCs costing at least that, but I don't.
Having said that, PCs in the $300-$500 price range can give you great returns on your investment.
But to be 100% honest, if any of you have, or can kindly point me to, good scientific explanations how an uber expensive powercord can improve the sound quality of a CD player or amplifier over a $10 powercord, I would love to be educated.
I’m a scientist (a biologist) and I do strive to be open-minded, as long as the science and logic we are talking are sound.
If China and Hong Kong cables are out. : Silnote Poseidon GL power cable, is $99..... Poseidon GS power cable, is $199.....And they go up from there. (They have speaker and IC cables as well, all with many accolades from reviewers and customers ).These are priced for a 1 meter length ( more $ if longer ), with a 30 day money back guarantee, lifetime warranty, and they go through a bit of a burn in at the factory. Check out their web site. Enjoy MrD.
The only scientific evidence I can steer you to is empirically derived: I've heard it for myself. And, no, it's not the placebo effect, or hysteria, or delusions, or expectation bias. You'd be surprised at how your own ears can detect things.
@mrdecibel I realize you've deemed me not worth your time.
But just in case you are feeling generous...
my time and experience in the field has allowed me to train myself to
hear very minute differences amongst all related items in audio.
Could you tell us please what experience you are referring to? Are you simply an audiophile who has listened to a lot of audio equipment? Or do you work in audio in some capacity?
The only scientific evidence I can steer you to is empirically derived:
People who go to psychics also have "empirically derived" conclusions.They experienced the fact the psychic simply knew things about them that the purported psychic "could not have known or guessed."
But of course, these people have typically made incorrect evaluations of their empirical experience. They just don’t know enough about the facts of cold reading to understand how they could have been fooled. So long as they never take on the facts of how people are fooled by cold reading, they will never relinquish their belief, and go to their grave sure their inference to real psychic powers was correct.
So...empirical experience is a dime a dozen. The question is: how well we reason from our empirical experience to explain it, and figure out if our inferences are sound.
And, no, it’s not the placebo effect, or hysteria, or delusions, or expectation bias.
How did you determine this? Because....human perceptual biases are actually a thing....right? I presume you aren’t going to claim they don’t exist. Therefore, how do you determine that your experience was NOT caused by some expectation or other bias effect?
If your answer is along the lines "because I had the strong experience of hearing a difference" that is obviously begging the question, and would simply display ignorance about the nature of bias.
Why do you think it’s perfectly fine that you declare to the crowd that you KNOW your position is correct and that you know you exhibit no bias effect when evaluating cables.
Yet if your claim is at all challenged with reasonable questions you get so incensed as to insult the questioner as “having problems.”
Are we supposed to simply sit down, shut up and accept anything nonoise claims as The Truth without possibly questioning it?
If not...why does questioning your claims cause you to insult the questioner?
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