Macrojack,
Thanks for the words of reason and wisdom. I'm thoroughly fine with the ALC modules.
As it stands, I have no way to compare the ALC amps to the AMS amps. Two people who may be in the best positions to judge, D-Sonic owner Dennis Deacon, who has manufactured amps using both modules, and Anaview/Abletec's V.P. of North American Sales Rich Spina, who has marketed and sold both modules, have stated that the modules sound remarkably similar.
I think it was Confucius who proclaimed in 500 BC.:
"He who pays considerably more for 'latest and greatest' AMS class D amp modules in D-Sonic mono-block amps when told by two knowledgeable individuals that they sound remarkably similar to prior and less expensive ALC class D amp modules in D-Sonic mono-block amps, shall have earned the distinction of being considered remarkably foolish."
Fun fact: Confucius was one of the first Chinese registered Audiogon members and was the first to use the term "Newbee" on a forum post.
Thanks,
Tim |
Tim,
My recommendation is that you enjoy your new Abletec amplifiers, and try to wait at least till the next generation of Pascal, Anaview, Hypex, B&O, etc technology.
I have been using a pair of M3-600M-A amps in my system for the last 10 days, and feel completely satisfied with their performance.
For your setup, keep in mind that the Abletec/Anaview modules have low input impedance, and Dennis does not add any input buffer to the M3-600 series (he does with the M3-1500 with Pascal modules).
I'm using a Benchmark DAC2 as preamp, which has very low output impedance, and the Anaview modules sound fantastic.
Cheers,
Sebastian |
Tim, one more comment.
I see that you are using a OPPO 105 as DAC + Volume Control entering directly to your amp.
My first listening session of the Anaview monoblocks was at a store, as I wanted to try them with some speakers I plan to buy sometime in the near future.
The system consisted in a OPPO 105 DAC (I used an USB drive with several FLAC files for testing purposes), a McIntosh C2300 preamp, McIntosh MC601 monoblocks, and B&W 802D Speakers.
We switched amplifiers back and forth, and the Anaviews provided a notably better bass performance than the MC601s.
Mids and highs were hard to distinguish between both amplifiers, but I think that the OPPO 105 was the bottleneck here, specially in the treble performance which I did not like with either amplifier, even considering that the room was properly treated.
When I installed the Anaviews at home with the Benchmark DAC2, I was glad to verify that the highs were very detailed and refined, no harsh at all!
Cheers,
Sebastian |
Tim,
Good luck with your new amps I am sure you will be happy with the build and the sound.
I also used and built my own Class D SDS240 dual mono amps with upgraded power supply. Originally had a single board and liked what I heard so much I went to 2 bridged ones, the increase in power made such a difference on my Joseph Audio speakers that I am convinced that for a true high end dynamic sound you need a lot power. Of course this is speaker dependent.
I was in the audio business for a while and have heard/owned all types of amps, my favorites were Mcormack mono amps with large planar speakers, prior to the Class D amp I had a Rogue 100 with my JA speakers.
Intrigued by the class d amp sound I continued to read about all new types coming out and was just about ready to get the n core 400 monos when I saw that a well respected builder was switching from n core to Pascal. I researched more about this type of amp and decided to try D Sonic amps due to the fact that this tech is newer and that it might have a slightly warmer presentation than n core.
So I called Dennis at D Sonic and he offered me his newest amp the M3-800M mono amps, 800 watt per channel, they are not on his web site yet. I am not sure if the tech is newer than the 1500's or not. I have had them going on two weeks and I feel it is a step up in sq. Overall a less grainy mid to upper treble with a warmer mid range. Bass may not go as deep but I only have listened maybe 20 hours, so I feel that this will improve.
I am also using a Oppo 105 to a Wyred 4 Sound STPSE (soon to be replaced with a ARC LS 17SE), I like the sound of the 6h30 tubes and I am running all balanced from cartridge/cd to amp.
It is an ever evolving hobby! |
Tim - It doesn't matter a bit whether or not something better exists. Pursuing the latest and greatest will make you crazy and broke and can lead to nothing but regret eventually. What you have coming should be very satisfactory as long as you keep your mind in the listening room and out of the magazines. This entire industry is built on dissatisfaction. You already tried to beat the system and failed to do so, breaking about even, and caused yourself worry and delay in the process. The real way to beat the system is to be happy with what you've got.
Macrojack Hard to beat advice like that. Of course that's not the nature of this crazy hobby. At some point you may get there...hopefully. |
Dollar for dollar you will be far more rewarded (and financially solvent) prioritizing: 1) speakers and their appropriate placement, 2) quality sources, 3) preamplifiers, and 4) appropriate room treatments ahead of amplifiers.
With that said, I am enjoying the holy hell out of my new D-Sonic amplifiers. |
Jtsnead, do you know what Pascal module is installed into the M3-800Ms? You can probably check in the PCB through the top cover holes using a flashlight so you don't need to open the units.
I suspect they are what Matt Kraemer is using in the Iluminati X2s, in BTL configuration. I almost bought this amplifier but finally went for the AMS1000-2600 in the M3-600M-A. |
Jtsnead,
I'm glad you're enjoying your new D-Sonic M3-800 amps. I've noticed there are very few reports from people regretting buying D-Sonic amps, whether stereo, multi- channel or monos. Everybody seems very satisfied with these amps.
Sebollo001/Sebastian,
You preferring the D-Sonic M3-600-M-A amps over such well respected amps like the McIntosh C601 monos, says a lot about the quality of the D-Sonics. I'm glad you're enjoying them and hope I enjoy my soon to arrive M3-600-M amps as much.
I'm a bit surprised, and concerned, that you think the Oppo 105 may not perform well in the mid to high frequencies.
I've been using JRiver on my laptop to wirelessly stream ripped cd and FLAC 96khz/24bit files from a Synology NAS to my Oppo 105. The Oppo acts as the Media Renderer/ Media Player with the digital signals converted by its built in Saber dac.
The Oppo's rather low 100 ohm output impedance is a good match with my Class D Audio 440CS amp's specified input impedance of greater than 57k ohms. This system performs very well from top to bottom; solid and textured bass with a smooth but detailed midrange and treble. It may be that my current system's very good impedance matching is a big contributor to its excellent performance.
The D-Sonic M3-600-M amps, having no custom input stage raising the input impedance, therefore have the same input impedance as the ALC-1000-1300 amp modules themselves, which is listed as a rather low 9-13k ohms. This isn't a really bad match since the Oppo's impedance is so low at 100, but it's not as good a match as it is with my current 440CS amp.
So, the big question is, does this less than ideal Oppo-to-D-Sonic amp impedance matching result in the poor midrange-treble performance that Sebastien noted with this combo? I sure hope not but I'll report back after I have the amps in my system for awhile.
Sebastian,
I know your Benchmark Dac2 has an adjustable output impedance feature. Did you need to lower the output impedance setting to achieve your very good mid-treble performance? If so, could you let me know your output impedance setting?
Worst case, if I notice subpar midrange and treble performance, I believe there are devices you can insert between the preamp/source and amp to better match impedances. I'll start researching these just in case.
Later,
Tim
|
jtsnead, have you considered upgrading your STPSE as an alternative to the AR preamp? I bought a used STP this summer for about $1200 to replace a classe pre that I paid more than 4k for new and was quite pleased with the match to my D-Sonic M2-600s that replaced a pair of tube amps I had once paid nearly 9k for, especially after mounting on Eden Sound's Terra Stone footers on a maple platform. The sound now is so sweet that the only I can't help but wonder how good this little preamp can be with the level 2 upgrade. I'm working my way up to sending mine in for upgrade but have found absolutely nothing on the web to indicate that anyone but W4S employees have ever heard one.
FWIW, I still get my tube fix when listening to records thru a Thor TA-3000. |
Tim,
Let me clarify my previous comments regarding the OPPO 105 and my first listening session with the M3-600M-As.
- I preferred the Anaview modules bass performance. This was very noticeable, bass was deeper and with more impact than with the MC601s, but still keeping a very natural presentation.
- I was not able to distinguish or prefer mids and highs frequencies performances between both amplifiers.
- Mids were EXCELLENT with both units, I really liked the presentation very much with all the test music I played.
- High frequencies were "hotter" than what I'm used to. No big problem with very good recordings, but no forgiveness at all. I listened to the system for more than an hour and it was far for unbearable, but I clearly prefer a smoother presentation, without sacrificing detail (who doesn't? hehe).
- Having heard the B&W 802Ds with Accuphase amplification I know the diamond tweeter capabilities and I don't consider it a possible cause of harshness.
- This leaves the C2300 Preamp, OPPO 105, interconnects, speaker cables and a little bit exaggerated toe-in, as possible causes of the less-than-stellar treble performance. My first suspicion was on the OPPO, but I just can be wrong.
I don't think you will have any impedance mismatch problem between the OPPO and the D-Sonics. My benchmark DAC 2 is configured with 20 dB attenuation pads in the balanced outputs, with 135 Ohms impedance and sounds fantastic with the new amplifiers.
Hope it helps...
Sebastian |
|
Probably too late, and this may have been covered already, but FYI Red Dragon will shortly be announcing a 500WPC stereo Pascal-based amp shortly. Spatial Audio was using it to drive a pair of Hologram speakers at RMAF...sounded amazing. |
I'd throw "music" in that list of rewarding dollar for dollar purchase, Njs ;) |
The new Red Dragon Audio Pascal-based stereo amp is called S500. Power rating per channel of 250W/8, 500/4, and 1000/4 bridge tied load for mono operation. Given the power rating, the amp is probably powered by S2Pro module. Price $1950. See:
http://www.reddragonaudio.com/products/s500
Merrill Audio is also showing indications of a new product... preannouncing the Taranis stereo... Little info on this one. An NCore module of some kind with 400W/8.... But it is still unclear if the power cited is the power rating per channel or overall. Seems to have some kind of custom input stage. Priced at $2500. I have found the tidbit in the Merrill Audio newsletter for late October. A complete press release should be published before long... I will post more detail when I receive it.
Saluti, G. |
Hi all,
Well, I actually received my M3-600-M completed amps back from D-Sonic Saturdrday. Before I go into more detail, I first want to respond to a few recent posters:
10-31-14: Njs
"Dollar for dollar you will be far more rewarded (and financially solvent) prioritizing: 1) speakers and their appropriate placement, 2) quality sources, 3) preamplifiers, and 4) appropriate room treatments ahead of amplifiers.
With that said, I am enjoying the holy hell out of my new D-Sonic amplifiers."
Njs,
I agree with everything you posted. I am still thrilled with the performance of my speakers, Magnepan 2.7qr, for both ht and 2-channel music. They are older speakers but are in like new condition and I think I have their positioning dialed in since they have that disappearing quality where you tend to forget the sound is coming from two 6ft tall and 2ft wide panels. I position the speakers 3 feet out from the front wall for ht/tv/background music listening and about 5 feet out for optimal sound staging for a more enjoyable music listening experience that gives a solid 3-D illusion that is wide and deep and gives the sense that the performers are in your living room or you've been transported to their location.
I previously upgraded my source from an older Sony DVD-7700, a very good cd/dvd player that had served me well for 10 yrs, to a more up to date Oppo 105 blu-ray player. I also added a laptop running JRiver Media Center controlling a 20TB Synology NAS that's backed up by a 20TB Seagate hard drive. This brought me into the 21st century utilizing computer audio playback. I now have my entire cd collection residing on the NAS, along with a number of hi-rez 96khz/24 bit FLAC music files, which are wirelessly streamed to the Oppo that serves as both a Media Renderer and Media Player. The Oppo also serves as a very good internal DAC, utilizing Saber 9018 dac chips, that converts the incoming digital signals to analog and outputs these to my amps via balanced XLR outputs and cables.
Lastly, the Oppo contains a very good internal surround processor and preamp section. This allowed me to eliminate my external surround processor and tubed VTL 2.5 preamp, with ht bypass, from the audio chain.
I was amazed, when comparing my system with and without the VTL included, that the sound without the tubes and VTL sounded just as sweet only utilizing the Oppo's completely solid-state built in preamp section. I thought there's no need to include the additional VTL preamp in the audio chain when its only purpose would be as a moderately expensive tube buffer that's not needed.
I want to note, however, that the combo of my beloved VTL preamp, having NOS Mullard tubes and an upgraded power supply, with my ClassD Audio 440CS amp produced excellent results. I would definitely suggest any class D amp owners, or those contemplating buying one, would benefit by pairing it with a tubed preamp.
As fortune has it, I just happen to have a nice one for sale if anyone is interested in buying it. It's a black unit, with HT Bypass but no phono section, that is in like new condition with zero flaws. I bought it new in 2006 from a local dealer (msrp was $2,500 at the time) here in central Indiana near Indy. I sent it to VTL this year due to noise in 1 channel. It turned out to be a bad 12AU7 Mullard tube. VTL replaced both 12AU7 tubes with new standard issue tubes and also upgraded the power supply to the current model's improved supply for $200.00. I have the original box, packing, manual and remote and am asking $1,050.00. Send me an Audiogon pm if interested.
The only priority I haven't addressed from Njs's list is room treatments, which I plan on looking into soon.
Mcbuddah,
You seem to be another very satisfied D-Sonic customer with your well broken in pair of M2-600-M amps, especially since you were coming from such a well respected Atma-Sphere amp. I believe your amps use the identical Abletec1000-1300 modules as my M3-600-M amps. I hope I am as pleased with mine as you seem to be with yours.
Sebollo001/Sebastian,
I'm pleased, and more than a bit relieved, to report that the Oppo has no impedance matching issues with the D-Sonic amps. I've already discovered, although thus far only with satellite tv audio as a source, that the D-Sonics possess the same smooth mids to treble attributes of my former ClassD Audio amp but with even more detail present.
You initially had me a bit concerned so I asked D-Sonic about this. They didn't think I'd have a problem since other customers have used their amps direct from Oppos with no issues. But thank you for your subsequent clarifying post.
Mdemaio,
Thanks for the info on the new Red Dragon amp but I'm now committed to the Abletec/D-Sonics, at least for a while.
Guido,
You can always be relied upon for accurate and up to date class D information, thanks.
Okay, now back to my D-Sonic adventures:
The new amps are now installed in my system with my existing cabling. I have each mono on a Steve Blinn maple platform with 4 brass spiked footers on each, The stands/amps are positioned within 6" of the inside edge of each speaker on the carpeted floor.
I let the amps sit for a few hours after unboxing to let them adjust to room temp before installing. After startup, I just eased them in running satellite tv sound through the rest of Saturday's day1 with a 2 hour exception that night: we had friends over and watched "Lone Survivor", an action film with plenty of combat scenes, gun fire, helicopters and explosions. I'm now using my prior class D amp, with 220/440watts @ 8/4 ohms to power my 8 ohm passive sub and 4 ohm center channel and retired my former older class A/B Adcom 100 watt amp from the same duties.
I did crank up the volume to theater level for the movie and the performance of the new amps was outstanding. Overall, I noticed improved dynamics, improved details and a generally even more immersive quality in my ht system. However, l believe the increase in power and quality of the sub and cc amplification ( older adcom 100 watts to newer ClassD Audio 220-440 watts) was also a big contributor to the improved system performance, along with the increase in power and quality of the front L+R channel amplification (ClassD Audio/ IRS amp module at 440 watts to D-Sonic/Abletec ALC amp module at over 1,000 watts into my 4 ohm speakers) that clearly improved detail retrieval and bass quality and quantity from my 2.7 speakers.
I'll be checking the new amps out with music in the next few days. I'll let you know my initial impressions soon and try to update as the amps break in.
I'll also give an update as to whether the James Romeyn custom cabling has any detectable affect on system performance, once they arrive and had a chance to listen for a while.
I'm very happy and relieved that my new amps are finally installed in my system. I've already determined that these amps are excellent performers as ht amps.
I'm now looking forward to just relaxing and listening to lots of familiar, and hopefully some new, music to determine how these amps perform with musical content.
Later,
Tim
|
Excellent update and more good info, Thank you |
Sebollo001, the amps I have use the M-Pro2 boards which are in the same line as the 1500w ones that were reviewed, mine are 800 w in 4 ohms, 1400 w bridged, the ones in the Aluminati are S-Pro2, differences dont know, would be interesting to compare
Mcbuddah, yes I did consider upgrading the STP but worried about resale value and I really liked how my 6h30 Dodd tube buffer sounded with my Class D amp, so I was trying to improve on that and at the same type keep the system all balanced. I installed the ARC LS17SE last night and listened a little while and I was impressed with the sound compared to the STP, will have to try going back to it in a week or so
The passive low gain stage is interesting, also looked at Tortuga LDR and also now Rossi LIO for line stages, the LDR can be made balanced also |
What would I be missing if I went with the M3-1200S-A vs the M3-600M-A? |
Jtsnead,
Srajan Ebaen, for 6moons, made a comparison between the M-Pro2 Gato Audio DIA-400 (Pascal M-PRO2) and DIA-250 (Pascal S-PRO2) integrated amps:
http://6moons.com/audioreviews/gato3/1.html
I think Dennis Deacon uses the M-PRO2 in 2 CH mode for the M3-800S.
Jeff Rowland also uses the M-PRO2 module in 2 CH configuration in the Continuum S2.
I asked Matt Kraemer (Aluminati Sound) if he tested both M-PRO2 and S-PRO2 modules, here's his answer:
"Pascal sent us the S-PRO2 and M-PRO2 for sampling and testing. We couldn't tell a difference between the two other than a high volume range with the higher wattage M series board.
The X2 is best suited with the S-PRO2 board and will match very well with your 805s speakers. It offers higher clarity, image detailing and dynamics over the NC400 board".
Interesting his comment comparing the Pascal with he Hypex DIY NC400 module. |
Since he can't buy commercially the nc400, what else can he say?
I have read comparisons and talked with people who have used both the Pascal and/or Anaview modules and compared them to the Hypex product. I haven't read of anyone that has sold their Hypex ncore.... |
I thought those guys sell or used to sell nc400 based amps as well. |
|
Kuribo,
FYI Matt Kraemer from Aluminati has been selling amplifiers using NC400 modules for the last year, at least. As he can't buy them as OEM, he request the buyers to order and ship the modules to him.
I can understand that Matt probably has a commercial interest/preference in using Pascal OEM modules, BUT I'm sure he's also wise enough to have performed the correct comparisons and determined that the performance of his amplifiers will not be degraded using the Pascal technology.
On the other hand, the DIY community can obtain the NC400 and all the (vey good) documentation to assemble an amplifier easily. This is not the case if they want to test Anaview or Pascal amplifiers, as they are strictly for OEMs. Furthermore, the documentation is sometimes not very good for unexperienced users. In many cases I read users complaining aobut humm, noise, unbalanced gains between channels, or simply bad sound performance. You may know that the Anaview/Abletec modules need to be matched carefully if no input buffer is installed.
Maybe in the cases you read, most probably the NC400 had been compared with a non optimal Pascal or Anaview implementation.
The Anaview AMS1000-2600 is the newest module hitting the High End class D group. There has been some talk about it in the German forums. Many experienced users have been impressed by its incredible dynamics, describing it as mercilessly FAST. mercilessly HONEST. I totally agree with these findings. This is fantastic as it leaves the rest of the chain for tuning or coloring the sound you like. |
There isn't much money to be made assembling amps from modules supplied by the customer. You can have a much higher margin by buying the modules direct from the manufacturer at wholesale.
I have read a few comparisons between the Pascal and ncore, and the Anaview and ncore. Supposedly, the new Anaview is not really any different sound-wise (see above posts) than the module in replaces, and I have talked to several people who compared the older module with ncore and said it wasn't even close.
As for Pascal, the 6moons review compares both the s and m pro Pascal modules to ncore and they don't seem to be in the same league... |
At this point though, I just needed to find someone to complete the amp builds and I wasn't going to give up. After all, did America give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? I think we all know the answer to that. WHAT!!! The Germans bombed Pearl Harbor??? When?!! Man, visiting the USS Arizona Memorial was on my bucket list too. |
Finsup,
Finsup:
"WHAT!!! The Germans bombed Pearl Harbor??? When?!!
Man, visiting the USS Arizona Memorial was on my bucket list too."
Finsup,
I Just threw that in for fun, no disrespect intended.
That's actually a quote from the movie Animal House when John Belushi's character, Blutto, is trying to motivate his fellow fraternity members to not give up after Dean Wormer placed their fraternity on 'double-secret probation'. Mayhem ensues.
Please don't let my goofiness dissuade you from paying your respects at the USS Arizona Memorial.
Thanks,
Tim |
Hi Kuribo,
DO you mind providing links to those comparisons between ncore and Pascal/Anaview? Does the ncore implementation and performance differ from one builder to the other since these are not self powered modules?
Thanks |
Kuribo,
I'm a bit confused about your comments.
First, you say Matt Kraemer's comparisons between Pascal and Hypex are not reliable since he is a seller and supposedly he will speak better on the product he's currently offering (Pascal).
BUT, you are considering Dennis Deacon (D-sonic) seller, and Anaview USA Product Manager opinions as reliable when you talk about comparing the old Abletec ALC1000 vs the new Anaview AMS1000 modules.
This reasoning just doesn't make too much sense to me, but there's more:
If you believe that the old Abletec ALC1000 and the new AMS1000 modules have the same or very similar performance, why did you strongly encouraged user Noble100 (Tim) to return or sell his new ALC1000 and get the brand new AMS1000? Again, I see a big contradiction in you communication.
I have to admit than I never compared the Pascal, Abletec, Anaview and Hypex NC400 modules between each other myself. I was able to compare the AMS1000-2600 in D-SONIC M3-600M-A against my old amplifier, an ATI AT1200, and the performance increase was huge, in every respect, IN MY SPECIFIC SYSTEM.
Also, at a store, I compared the AMS1000-2600 modules against a pair of MaIntosh MC601 monobloks, and the Anaview modules were clearly superior in bass performance, and at least equaling the virtues of the huge MC601 monoblocks in other respects.
In the german forums there are several comparisons between the AMS1000-2600 and the Hypex NC400 modules. One very experienced user clearly prefered the Anaview modules in his "high power" inefficient playback chain, praising its dynamics and excellent control over the big speakers. This same user preferred the Hypex NC400 for his other highly efficient small system which he uses for listening at lower levels, and relax after work. |
I am not saying anything about the reliability of those claiming there aren't any major differences between the old and new Anaview modules. I am just saying those who have intimate knowledge have made these comments;in fact, it is against their best interests to do so..it is a bit different with Aluminati where it is in their best interests to claim the non-hypex module is better. There are many opinions out there. Hypex has the best objective performance but regardless, it comes down to personal preference. The only way to know for certain is to listen to the various modules and decide for one's self which is preferable. |
Tim, I was having fun too. No worries. |
By the way, I recommended getting the latest modules not because they sound better (though they may) but because is is always best to get the latest rev.... |
All, through recent emails with Merrill, I have learned a little bit more about the $2500 Merrill Audio Taranis stereo amp.
The amp is a power house: in stereo mode it outputs 400W/8 per channel, growing to 600W over 4 Ohms. For the most demanding speakers, it can be configured by the factory to operate in bridged tied load for mono/biamping operations: each bridged chassis can output a whopping 1200W/4 Ohms. The circuit can deliver a high voltage peak of 80V, and a high current of 26A per channel. According to Merrill, even difficult to drive electrostats are compatible with the high voltage of Taranis. Do not be concerned about damping factor for low impedance speakers, the value is a hefty 5000.
According to Merrill, Taranis uses a uniquely configured Hypex SMPS that complements the full-blooded NCore 5th order self-oscillating class D power conversion technology inside it. Yes, you read correctly: There is no lower end Hypex UCD inside Taranis at all. Nor is the amp powered by some DYI module derived from the entry-level NC400 part.
Taranis is no basic NCore integration: Amongst other things, Merrill designed a custom differential input stage for the amp with a high current drive for the output stage. The stage raises the input impedance to a substantial 100K Ohms for excellent compatibility with most preamplifiers and DACs, and reduces common mode noise. Taranis achieves an impressive signal to noise ratio of 120dB.
Last but not least, the Taranis steel chassis features a LED power meter on its mirror-finished stainless front panel. The meter shows 3db increments from -60db to -3db, actually 0db. The last led starts to illuminate at approximately -2.9db upwards, and gets brighter until 0db is reached.
As you know, I am extremely fond of well implemented NCore, such as what Merrill has achieved with this technology inside the Veritas monos. Hence, I am looking forward to discovering the musical performance of Taranis live.
You will find more information, including tech specs at:
http://merrillaudio.net/taranis.html
Merrill can be contacted at:
Merrill Wettasinghe
Merrill Audio Advanced Technology Labs, LLC
www.merrillaudio.net
Tel: 415 5MA.HiFi (415.562.4434)
Email:
taranis@merrillaudio.net |
|
If it doesn't use a modified version of the nc400 like the new NAD uses, then it must use the nc1200 as there are no other ncore modules currently produced according to HYPEX. Also, the stock ncore400 has a better SNR of 125db, not bad for some DYI entry level module... |
Hi Kuribo, as soon as Merrill releases further Taranis details, I will post it. G. |
If it will sell for $2500, it doesn't have the nc1200. My bet is it has a tweaked UCD module. |
From the Merrill Audio web pagefor the Taranis;
"Using pure Ncore Technology..."
"Designed using Ncore technology from the VERITAS Monoblocks.
With plenty of power to space, the Taranis Stereo Power Amplifer
reproduces music with ease, speed and superb detail.
A specially designed high end input stage with a high current drive give the output stage speed and detail..."
400 watts/8 ohms
600 watts/4 ohms
1.5milli ohms output impedance
100k input impedance
0-50khz +0/-3db Frequency response
26db gain
+/- 80 volt Maximum output
26 Amp Maximu Output
130db Signal to noise**
0.005 THD+Noise
Also from the press release;
"The Taranis Stereo Power Amplifier is powered by the same NCORE technology as the $12,000 VERITAS Monoblocks."
Notice the 130db S/N ** from the web page. So is it 120 or 130? Typo errors occur all the time so must confirm. 130 is most impressive if correct.
From both the web site and press release it is most definitely based on none DIY NCore and is based on NC1200, but in a variation of most likely.
|
If it is using nc1200, it will not cost $2500. Hypex has pricing requirements for OEM's using the nc1200.
The NAD with the modified nc400 is priced at $3000. Perhaps this is the module they will use. |
Al, I will check with Merrill once again about product-level S/N ratio. It is possible that the 130 value is measured on bare NCore module to meter, while 120 may be measured on the device, from input terminals to output terminals. The 125 value for NCore NC400 for example, is the S/N metered on the bare board... The value changes on an instantiated amplifier. Regardless, an actual SN ratio ranging between 120 dB and 130 dB is so low to be virtually unperceivable.
G. |
Al, system level S/N of 120dB is apparently the correct value. Typo on product page will be updated before long. G. |
"The Taranis Stereo Power Amplifier is powered by the same NCORE technology as the $12,000 VERITAS Monoblocks." Just to clarify it does not say it uses the same module (NC1200), but rather the same technology which could be the NC400. |
It would seem with NAD and now most likely Merrill, that the nc400 is now in play for OEM's....It would be nice if HYPEX now made the nc1200 available to DIYers.... |
All, Merrill is experiencing probs posting to Audiogon today, hence he has asked me to post the following message on his behalf:
... ... ...
Guido, thank you for posting this information with regard to the recent announcement of the Taranis Stereo Power Amplifier priced at $2,500 with 400watts/8ohms
600 watts/4 ohms.
I appreciate all the speculation and interest. It is good to see such a close following.
To put all the speculation to rest.
The modules are pure Ncore Modules output stage only with custom designed input stage, as per the Merrill Audio web page. They are not the NC400 modules
but new modules based on the NC1200 Ncore technology.
The input stage is custom designed to provide a very high current drive to the output stage for speed using our own design. There are other parameters
included in the input stage design to create superior noise and performance characteristics that are only found in ultra-expensive amps. As with all Merrill
Audio products we are more focused on sound then on component cost. We are very pleased with the design and looks of the Taranis Stereo Power Amplifier.
Look for all the reviews that will be coming out early next year, and hopefully a formal review from Guido also.
We have decided to use a super nice chassis made of steel for RFI/EMI protection. Steel is seldom used because of 3x shipping weight. The front panel
is a mirrored stainless steel so this will look good and sound good on your audio shelf. Look for more products that will come out with this casing in
the near future.
Audio Purity is our goal.
Thank you Guido,
Cheers
Merrill Wettasinghe |
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One wonders why anyone would buy the Veritas monos at $10K when they can get two of the seemingly improved Taranis at $5K??? |
Kuribo, Merrill does not assert that Taranis sports a pair of NC1200 modules. I interpret the above that "new modules based on the NC1200 Ncore technology" means that Taranis contains a power conversion module or modules derived -- by trickle down -- from NC1200 technology for the particular stereo application and price point.
G. |
I recall Hifial, whose judgement I respect and believe owns or has listened to both in his system, state that the Hypex Nc400 module, while sounding very good, is not in the same league as the Nc1200 module.
I would think Hypex is aware of this and, being the amp designers of both, knows why;perhaps some proprietary technology utilized in the nc1200 that's not used in the nc400.
From my perspective, they are now offering a new module to OEMs that incorporates this superior technology in a less expensive and somewhat lower power form. This may be an effort to capture back some of the sales lost to Abletec and Pascal based amps.
As Hifial put it: to put the less expensive module/amps 'in the same league' performance and sound wise as the ncore 1200 modules.
This is all pure speculation on my part and just food for thought.
Tim
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Bruno, the designer, has said repeatedly that the only difference between the nc400 and the nc1200 is that the nc400 has a discrete input stage that he custom designed while the nc1200 has an ic input that is rather plain because it was thought that many OEM's would want to put their own input stage in the amp.
If you look at the specs, if anything, the nc400 has superior measured performance.
Several have said they preferred the nc1200. Bruno and others at Hypex have gone on record repeatedly saying there isn't any real difference in sound between the two. "Preferred" doesn't mean "better" in an objective way.
As for the modules in the new Merrill amp, saying "They are not the NC400 modules but new modules based on the NC1200 Ncore technology" is a bit disingenuous- the nc400 and nc1200 technology is one in the same. As I said above, NAD is now using a module based on the nc400 in their new amp, so my earlier comment that the new Merrill amp does not use the nc1200 module as indicated by the $2500 price, and more than likely is using a nc400-like module, as is NAD, would seem to be accurate... |
Noble100, Thank you for your respect in my judgment.
I own the Veritas and heard the NC400 not only in my system but several others as well. As very good as the NC400 is there is NO CONTEST against the Veritas. Any other NC1200 I can only speculate would be the same.
I also know I highly respected OEM that modified an NC400 to wring every last bit of performance out of it and put it up against the Veritas in his system and the Veritas still won handily.
Hey for a DIY at its price point the NC400 is one of the best buys out there, as long as it is assembled properly. The cherry on top is that if one wants to get better performance from it all they have to do is spend a small amount of additional money and use better parts and anti-vibration footers. I know, as I heard the difference before and after, as did several other Audiophile friends.
But now that Hypex is bring the NC1200 tech to a lower price point that is great for Audiophiles. There are a lot of people that either can not or do not want to buy a DIY even if someone else did it for them.
For the price that Merrill is asking, $2,500, even DIY selfers would be better off buying the Taranis if it sounds as good as I expect. I for one will look to give them a listen. Soon, I hope.
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Kuribo, what is your problem. You are entitled to believe what you want but for the most part your are not only wrong but you have no first hand knowledge for some of your statements of "facts".
Yes, your first paragraph is mostly on the mark but there are other differences. None of which I will get into now or later.
If we only and always went by specs then why bother to listen to any equipment. We all should just buy on specs. Then in that case ALL the equipment from Japan from the late 70s for the next several decades should be the BEST sounding equipment EVER made. Their specs are off the chart and better all equipment today. But they would sound poor to anything today of any quality.
Sorry but I and many others do not prefer the sound of the NC1200 over the NC400. It is BETTER then the NC400. Sometimes something is BETTER then what it is being compared vs preferred. There is a BETTER reproduction of sound from top to bottom and in all aspects with the NC1200.
With all due respect to Bruno, and I think very highly of him, B***S**T. Anyone with a good set of ears and system can EASILY hear the difference. Why he has said that I can not fathom.
As for your last paragraph this where you make statements like they are facts but are based on no first hand knowledge. We all could suppose whatever we want. Dos not make it factual. That whole thing is just a guess.
Merrill is one of the rare ones in the industry. Nothing about him is disingenuous. And one of the nicest and helpful. |
You are entitled to your opinion. Listening is subjective and most are aware that there are many factors at play- after all, all equipment is part of a system.
I have no reason to doubt Bruno and others at Hypex who have stated that there is no material difference between the two amp modules, other than the input stage. No, specs aren't everything, but when you compare the specs and performance between the two modules, it is clear they are branches on the same tree.
No doubt they sound different. Again, different does not mean better. Better is subjective. To each his own. |
Kuribo, Have you even heard both the NC400 and the NC1200 (both done right) in a very good system? If not then there is no way you can say that they JUST sound different. And for that matter what about all the people who have heard both and state the NC1200 sounds better, not just different.
Yes to each their own, but please do not hide behind the subjective/objective BS.
I agree there are many factors at play in a system. But I have heard the NC1200 in a lot of different systems against some of the best and, not my opinion but the systems owners, all thought the NC1200 was better, not just different. Many had heard the NC400 also and as much as they were impressed they all thought the NC1200 was better and many sold their (some of the best) amps to buy the NC1200.
Again specs are just an indicator of possible performance.
From your above statement then there are a lot of equipment from different manufactures that are branches from the same tree. And even so that does not make them the same, otherwise humans and chimps would both be ruling the world.
Look I at least have, as you put it, a subjective opinion because I have heard both in many different systems. Have you?
My final point is you have no real first hand knowledge about these NEW modules that will be going in the NAD and Merrill Audio units but you are making statements of fact about them. And it means nothing till both are heard.
Lets move on.
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Hi Audiozen, NAD M22 looks like a fascinating device... What evidence is there from specs that it is powered by the same modules as Taranis?
G. |
HIFiAl, you need to come to grips with the definition of subjective and how it related to audio. Again, just because you, your buddies, or half the people at the mall prefer the sound of an amp, doesn't mean it is objectively better. The only way to measure an amp objectively is through specs. On that count, the nc1200 is not superior to the nc400. If you prefer the sound, that's your right, but your subjective valuation only goes as far as your nose- it may be "better" for you but that does not mean it will be "better" for everyone. Believe it or not, some people don't even think the Merrill nc1200 is "better" compared to many other class a amps. Everyone has their own opinion on what is better or best.
Here is the info on NAD M22:
"NAD's M22 power amplifier is the first nCore-based model from a mass-market company. Unlike competition from Acoustic Imagery, Merrill Audio, Jeff Rowland and Mola-Mola which get $10'000/pr and more for equivalent monos, the NAD stereo amp sells for $3'000. "We have our own nCore module developed in close cooperation with Hypex. It is based on the NC400 not the 1200 but this is not a qualitative difference. It only affects power output. We can do this because we will build and sell a lot of units. The 1200 was developed primarily for the pro market where huge power is required. In the Hypex 400 module continuous power is 200W@8 and 400W@4. In our implementation it is 250W@8/4 controlled by Erik Edvardsens precision clipper circuit. The benefit of this approach is the ability to offer much more short term or dynamic power where we have 350 @8 and 600W@4.This makes the power in actual use seem greater than the spec in typical NAD tradition!"
350W/8 Ohm and 600W/4 Ohm....Sound familiar? This is why I conjectured that the new Merrill amp is based on the nc400, like the new NAD. I did not state it as fact, I simply said the odds were good the module in the new Merrill amp, based on price and power, would seem to be based on the nc400, not the nc1200. Again, the tech in these two is the same so saying it is based on the nc1200 is the same as saying it is based on the nc400.....The price and power output make it a better bet that the module is actually more closer to the nc400.... |
