I have read thousands of comments on upgraded fuses improving the performance of sound. I am very open minded but not sold either way. So, the question I have is....if fuses were so important, than why don't Amplifier companies all install them as OEM equipment? To me, if they are as good as people say, that would provide companies who use them a competitive advantage?
Every High End Audio store I go to in Phoenix have told me it does not make a difference and is a waste of money. For the record, I have fuses purchased at an automotive store for under $10 and I think my sound is awesome. The Company that built my amp tested the Synergistic Fuses and he emphatically said there was no difference.
If I were to try a fuse for fun, given my equipment, what would your recommendation be to try?
2 issues jump out at me here:- 1 - Why don't they ....... 2 - Who listens to an engineer anyway?
1 - In the same way re fuses, if power cables made such a difference to an amp why do hi end manufacturers bundle bog standard cables in the box . And if speakers sounded so much better with granite bases, why don't the manufactures offer with or without. Surely they could obtain heavy supplier discounts to keep customers happy? 2 - Last month, I asked two respected amp engineers about difference in power cables and they laughed at me. Also, both still swear single ended is the same sound signal as balanced As other posters have written here, it is your ears that are better than someone else's opinion.
wolf_garcia "Special" fuses have no actual design benefits or any logical explanation anywhere as to how they improve anything (thousands of comments…still no "how or why")...
I guess it’s not true what they say, that if you repeat something often enough eventually it’ll sink in. The advantages of aftermarket fuses over stock fuses have been described ad nauseum all over the place on the various fuse threads right here on Audiogon for the last ten years. It’s not rocket science. Nothing to get uptight about. Nothing to get your panties in a twist about. 👙
bigkidz HA HA HA. Why don’t they use better resistors, capacitors, chokes or transformers, chassis metal thickness, feet, etc. Cost to price ratio? I think those would make bigger improvements than some fuses IMO. Why not just use a copper bar?
Why don’t they? Because they the amp designers are so focused, hyper focused, on circuits they ignore everything else. Besides as I already intimated they can’t hear anyway so what’s the difference? If they could they certainly wouldn’t bolt transformers directly to the chassis or bolt the printed circuit boards directly to the chassis. I know what you're thinking - "But everybody does that!"
To answer the OP's question, all one needs to do is read the responses. Over half of audiophiles do not believe that fuses and power cords make a sonic improvement. Since fuses and power cords do not require a modification to the existing equipment, manufactures choose not to include and charge for "upgraded" fuses and PC and lets the end user decide for themselves.
Nice dodge. The point was that designers think about how to design their
best sound into a component within a certain price range and given more
$$ would choose to spec a better traditional component that they feel
more confident in than a fuse.
If solution for BEST sound is simply use most expensive parts, who cares about circuits. All we need is ONE company producing ONE component with the most expensive parts.
brf To answer the OP’s question, all one needs to do is read the responses. Over half of audiophiles do not believe that fuses and power cords make a sonic improvement. Since fuses and power cords do not require a modification to the existing equipment, manufactures choose not to include and charge for "upgraded" fuses and PC and lets the end user decide for themselves.
>>>>Nope that can’t be right. Think of the amp as a black box. The primary concern is or should be the sound. The designers are free to get then best sound they are capable of anyway they can. Don’t worry, no one is going to open up the amp and look inside, to check on the fuse, the capacitors, the circuit. It does not (rpt not) matter one iota if audiophiles believe in fuses or power cords, or capacitors or wire directionality or some fancy circuit or another. High end electronics is competitive so once you get past the cosmetics the real issue is the sound. If they don’t try to win best of show 👑 they aren’t really high end, if you know what I mean. As I said before at least twice, the reason most high end amp designers don’t use high end fuses is simply because they’re unware of them. Sadly. 😪 Even the ones who *are* aware of them, you know, like the ones who hang out here, don’t believe in them. You can lead a mule to water but you can't make him drink.🐪
To say amp designers are unaware of "special" fuses and thus don't use them assumes a lot, and is obvious nonsense. Luckily, most aren't mules being led anywhere (or sheep being driven somewhere), and although faith based tweaks and their imagined benefits are popular among many for whom details of design and efficacy are unimportant, logic prevails among many designers far more successful than geoffkait's "bag of crystals" and "anti seismic springs" tweak business clearly produced in an atmosphere of sad desperation. Thankfully. "You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think"…Dorothy Parker.
A fuse is not a wire. A fuse is used in place of a wire, or interrupts a trace, on a circuit board. We can all agree that a wire or trace should be of very high quality/purity to sound it's best.
A fuse is an over current device engineered to melt, thus breaking the circuit. It's not made to "sound" good. The end caps are usually made of zinc, tin, and aluminum or alloys of them.
The internal wire is usually made of nichrome (nickel, chromium, iron, etc.). It's sacrificial in nature and design, much like MOVs in a surge protector. Why would any "engineer" see it any other way?
Enter modern high fidelity. Would anyone here, in their right mind, use any of the aforementioned metals in their speaker cables? Their interconnects? Their power cables? Their RCA jacks? Their speaker terminals? I think not.
The fuse is a choke point. Nothing happens unless it gets past the fuse. As someone else has pointed out on another thread, about 85% of what goes on in an amp has a "leg" in what comes after the fuse.
Not all fuses deal with the incoming AC. Some, like the ones in my SACD are in the signal path. There's no way in hell I'm not experimenting with a better made fuse. One that uses rhodium plated copper, copper and nothing else, such as the PADIS fuses. $25 apiece. Better pass through, though not as good as no fuse but not as flat out horrible as some of the cheaper fuses out there.
Some here have said that they just swap them out on a regular basis and show pictures of tortured, aged fuses. A simple look at Wiki says that there should be no damage from minor, harmless surges of current or oxidize or change behavior even after years of service and yet we have proof that the cheaply made ones do just that.
I think what we're witnessing here is a very conservative backlash against progress. The founding tenet of conservatism is stop, not so fast. Well, that was many years ago since the advent of aftermarket fuses and it took a while for me to catch on to the "trend" but now, after observing it firsthand, I don't see what all the hubbub is about. Hearing is believing and it's so very easy to hear.
As for any argument about "it's just a 1/4" piece of wire. C'mon now. No matter how small and insignificant you think it is, it just messed with the current or signal, and now it's going from one amplification device to another until it gets to the outputs. I'd rather have as pure an original current flow or signal as possible, instead of a corrupted one.
I think that wolf garcia has a point. A fuse passes current to the unit, but not signal. It seems that a malfunctioning fuse could pass too much or too little current. If operating properly, how can it possibly reach and alter the signal resulting in a difference in the sound?
The amplification of the signal is dependent on the power that comes into the unit. The cleaner the power, the cleaner the power available to amplify the signal.
@nonoise If a fuse in a signal path is truly that weak link and manipulates the sound, wouldn't a more eloquent solution such as a relay be more appropriate? Someone designing a piece of gear selling for several thousand dollars can't pony up for a $3 relay? Or better yet, ¢10 for a BJT to bleed to ground?
@kosst_amojan, I believe you're right. As to why they don't do it is beyond me. As I recall, Ralph (@atmasphere), uses something better than fuses in his designs. Until they start doing it on a regular basis, I'm going to stick with the better made PADIS fuse as it does sound better to my ears.
@nonoise thanks, I’m not always so succinct. And it’s easy for me to be so when you’ve written a tome explaining everything first.
I do believe that a circuit breaker instead of an on/of switch would be the way to make this point moot. I think atmasphere was suggesting a different type of fuse, though. An industrial type that would require a different fuse holder. Both of these options are more than I want to do.
I just ordered some PADIS fuses... Thanks for the heads up. Parts connexion has HiFi tuning fuses on clearance right now, super cheap. Unfortunately they didn’t have the amperage I need, so I went with the PADIS. Not as cheap. But not as dear as the furutech.
Full disclosure: my previous system’s World’s Most Modded Oppo 103 employed a copper bypass in lieu of fuse. The Modded Woo Audio Headphone amp with ’42 Tung Sol rectifier tube and two '52 Sylvania Bad Boys (2 Herbies tube dampers each!) employed the Audio Magic Nano fuse, the correct direction determined by listening, no biggie.
These days I eschew fuses altogether. I do not use house AC power and there’s no place for a fuse even if I wanted to use one. No more power cords, no speaker cables and no interconnects and no digital cable. No more big capacitors, no more big honking transformers. No room acoustics issues to suffer. No more teacher’s dirty looks. If thy eye offend three pluck it out! 👁
Directional fuses - brought to you by the same kind of people who sell you cheapo alarm clocks and pebbles in a jar as audio tweaks. A scam plain and simple.
If they make a difference, it's small. And I also think it's safe to say if they make a difference you're power supply is poorly designed. My F5 uses an IEC/switch/fuse module with an RLC network to filter HF. That feeds the toroidal through 2 CL60 thermisters for in rush current limiting. The power is rectified to 34.5V +/-, then feeds an RC filter bank of 120,000uF. It's very effective. A fuse is completely inconsequential in the larger scheme of things.
It’s possible someone somewhere prefers the stock off the shelf fuse to some aftermarket fuse, though unlikely. It could happen if the aftermarket fuse was a relatively ineffective one. Not all aftermarket fuses are created equal. I could also happen if the stock fuse was accidentally in the correct direction and the aftermarket fuse was inserted in the wrong direction. Even that is rather unlikely. I suspect it’s possible the reverse expectation bias could explain why some audiophiles get bad results. You know, they psych themselves out. 😳 I mean, how would they be able to explain it to the other naysayers? Hel-loo!
There could possibly be a tie if the system used for the test was sub-standard or had errors in it, e.g, out of phase or out of absolute polarity) such that the differences were not audible. Yeah, I know what you’re thinking - but my system is fabulous! Yeah, right. Finally, the hearing of the tester might not be all that he thinks it is. A lot of folks can’t hear anything above 8 kHz, for example, or are not able to pick up on subtle differences. Almost everyone who reported on the various fuse threads over the years has good results. A few reported they couldn’t hear it. C’est la vie as they say in Miami.
Granted, on a scale that encompasses all we hear when listening, the differences can be stated as small. My Marantz Reference components are no slouch in design and construction. Ken Ishiwata is a well respected designer and he went deep into the design to extract the best sound possible.
Having said that, that small difference is in the unmasking of subtle cues and background hash that obscures what's in the music. The result is a fuller and expanded version of what lies hidden. Now, nothing is holding back the full potential of the amp (or source).
It's like that last click on the focus ring of a camera. A small click, sure, but look what it just did.
I know the owner of Raven Audio, the maker of my outstanding tube amp. I asked him to test SR Red and Black fuses. He said if it made his amp sound better he would use them as OEM fuses. After trying them over a period of time, he found no improvement in sound and consequently does not use any upgraded fuses. I ordered the PADIS fuse to see for myself. I will report my results after I receive them. NONOISE --is there a break in period for the PADIS fuses?
@willgolf, I was told by @auxinput to expect some ups and downs for the first 200 hours. All was great for about the first 20 hrs and then it was like, 'what happened?' It was then that I put the CD player on repeat for the night and since then, it's just been getting better and better. That was with my SACD player. With my integrated, I haven't noticed anything but improvements. It could be that I keep in on all the time so even without playing, it's burning in.
As to the owner of Raven Audio not hearing any improvements, I can't comment on the matter. I know what I'm hearing and I'm not delusional. Keep in mind that there are many here who've heard improvements, commented on them, and then keep off these kinds of threads because of the acrimony some display when pushing their views.
I think that the sonic effect of replacing fuses depends on the particular circuit design, and the position of the fuse in that circuit. When the entire audio signal passes thru a fuse, the effect of the fuse on sound quality can be marked. In the Rogue Cronus Magnum II, Synergistic fuses greatly improved the sound quality - more than interconnects and power cords. Experiment if you can afford the fuses - not cheap though.
The laws of physics can't be broken. If the rationale came in the form of a memo, it came from the marketing department. Fuses do not make a difference. Do you want to believe science or do you want to believe marketing? It's up to you to decide which way to go.
PS Audio puts audiophile ceramic fuses in their equipment. I have a NuWave DAC. When asking about possibly upgrading the fuse they told me I already have on in there. They even sent me one for a back up if needed. Its gold plated and ceramic. It seems to be made just for them. No name on the fuse. A while ago PS Audio used to sell their own audiophile fuses When I asked my amplifier company why they will not include an audiophile fuse, I was told because they want the owner to decide that for himself, since different fuses will make the amp sound differently.
Fuses resonate when active. It appears that the construction of the fuse will effect this phenomena. If anyone thinks fuses makes no difference? I do not know what to tell them. For I have tried several brands and they all leave their own unique signature on what is heard.
I think some amp/preamp makers are aware that some of their customers think high priced fuses make a difference, so they put them in (give the customer what they want). I think some amp makers (really good companies) have discovered that this does not make a difference. If you get a fuse that electron pass through, then you get the power you need. Remember that 1/3 of people think that a sugar pill is 'working' for them (look into the placebo research). The research is VERY clear on this. Many people will think something is working, if you tell them it will work. Also, there are many people who want to believe they have discovered something that others do not know about. Also, there are many people who have do defend their decision to spend money on something. Also, there are people who will tell you "if you had a GOOD ear, you would agree with me". There are alway people who want to have a GOOD ear. OK, there might be differences, but if I can't hear them, then you should not care. Listen to the new fuses. If you like the 'change', then buy them. If you can't hear the difference, don't. Ignore what other say. The only think that matters is what YOU care about. Don't care about what other think.
The laws of physics can't be broken. If the rationale came in the form of a memo, it came from the marketing department. Fuses do not make a difference. Do you want to believe science or do you want to believe marketing? It's up to you to decide which way to go.
Where, in the "laws of physics", does it state that fuses don't make a difference? I've read that here so many times and yet no one can site it. Did that come from your marketing department?
Or perhaps the higher end fuses change the sound of the component away from the desired sound the designer seeks...if I were an amplifier designer and changing fuses either didn't drastically effect the sound at all in my view or into a direction I didn't want, I'd keep on doing what I'd been doing - ie if it ain't broke don't fix it - especially if there already is good demand and sales for said amplifier.
I just had a fuse blow in my Krell and had to re-order another Furutech. While I was waiting, I decided to put back in the stock fuse. After 15 minutes, I literally could not listen anymore. It was completely unlistenable! I put in a spare Isoclean I had lying around. While it did not have the resolution of the Furutech, it was so much better (significantly) than the stock fuse!!
Fuse resolution…yeah man...it's also important to remember to cover the door knobs in your home to reduce sonic reflections. They're omnidirectional! In fact, having been recently inspired by a 3 thousand dollar Mook record clamp (worth it man…really), I do plan to market audiophile door knob covers that are reversible (otherwise, how would you know what's what?). Why don't amp manufacturers use knob covers? Obviously, they can't hear the things the "others" hear.
@nonoise Yeah, it is funny, and I'm getting a lot of laughs out of geoffkait and auxinput saying the silly things they do. "Completely unlistenable"!?!? Because of a fuse??? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? If the difference is that obvious you can measure it, so show me the measurements! I keep asking and I'm still waiting. Still waiting to hear about that phenomenon we can't measure too. ::crickets:: I mean, after all, we're measuring the gravity waves of black holes colliding half way across the universe these days. But we can't measure a freaking fuse? Some of you take the subjective listening concept entirely out of context. All subjective listening quality means is that it doesn't have to measure great to sound great, but there is ALWAYS a measurable reason why something sounds like it does.
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