Wow. That is extreme! I have never heard a successful set-up with such an extreme degree of toe-in. What speakers are you using and in what type of space?
Speakers positionning
I just try a new toe-in for my speakers, and it worth the move. Instead of crossing the focus behind my head ( at position seat), now it cross in front of me at 2 feet. The highs are well defined and present with well blend music
and no more edgy treble at "forté" passage... But it depends of your room and speakers... You can read more about here:
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/speaker-positioning-toe-in.321814/
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/speaker-positioning-toe-in.321814/
40 responses Add your response
I use 45 degrees of toe-in regularly, with speakers that are designed for it. The speaker axes criss-cross in front of the sweet spot. Ime several advantage accrue, including a wider sweet spot, deeper soundstage, reduced coloration, and more consistent total balance throughout the room. It looks weird but works well. Duke dealer/manufacturer |
That’s weird. Most speakers will produce the best soundstage, frequency response, dynamics when pointing straight ahead, with no tie in or very little toe in. Of course speakers should be placed very carefully in the ideal locations for the magic to occur and the room should be thoughtfully treated 🤔 to address acoustic anomalies. |
@geoffkait wrote: "Most speakers will produce the best soundstage, frequency response, dynamics when pointing straight ahead, with no toe in or very little toe in." Agreed, for "most speakers". Well I’m not sure it makes much difference in dynamics. However if good soundstaging over a wide listening area is a high priority, that’s something you won’t get with little or no toe-in. Ime speakers designed from the outset with a lot of toe-in mind, and then set up accordingly, do a much better job of giving good soundstaging over a wide listening area, and perceived tonal balance is theoretically improved as well. Again, not sure it makes much difference in dynamics. Duke |
Drivers will have an equal dispersion pattern laterally, i.e. to each side of the driver, so in terms of brightness, etc., a speaker oriented to cross 2' in front of your head should sound much the same as a speaker oriented crossing 2' behind your head. But with most, not all, speakers, this will affect the soundstage. Definitely worth experimenting, as each speaker, each room, and each interaction between the two, is different. |
Going off-axis often reduces any top octave or higher ringing. An especially good idea for a lot of (but not all) metal tweeters, including some Be's. Crossing in front of your head you reduce side wall reflections, so it makes sense to me, overall. It's certainly a better idea to try first than new cables or amps. :) Best, E |
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the best soundstage along with everything else can ONLY be achieved using a foolproof method like the speaker placement track on the XLO Test CD or similar test CD. The better the room is treated for acoustic anomolies the bettercsuccess you will have with this method. You will find that speakers generally should be placed CLOSER together than people assume AND toe-in is a make do substitute for not having the correct speaker locations and or room acoustics treatments. Trying to find the IDEAL SPEAKER LOCATIONS by trial and error is like trying to solve x simultaneous equations in x + N unknowns. You will inevitably wind up with local maximums but not (rpt not) the real maximums. |
@geoffkait wrote: "the best soundstage along with everything else can ONLY be achieved using a foolproof method... The better the room is treated for acoustic anomalies the better success you will have." Do you think it makes sense to design speakers that deliberately minimize room-interaction acoustic anomalies? Or do "foolproof" setup methods take the speaker's characteristics out of the equation? Duke |
While unconventional I've gotten the best soundstage with my speakers slightly toe'd OUT. Yes, they are pointed 1/2" towards the side walls. They are placed 6' apart in a 13.8' wide room and I get a wall of sound across the entire room that envelops my listening position. Eric at Tekton ( the designer and builder) suggested it and I'm glad he did as I wouldn't have tried it otherwise. |
turnbowm9, At the risk of just restating the obvious, in case you stopped your toe in process in route to an optimum set up--- One of the benefits of toe in is to ameliorate the effects of side wall reflections, but as you have noted you pick up some brightness as you toe in the speaker and get closer to listen on the axis of the speaker. If you continue the toe in until the speaker's axis is well in front of your listening position you will not only have reduced the sidewall reflections substantially but you will now have a more tonally balanced sound. As Duke said (in effect) it looks a bit cross eyed but it really works well. In medium sized and smaller rooms it can be a life saver (so to speak). And now that you don't have to push your speakers close to the wall to overwhelm the highs with bass tones, you enhance you imaging, especially depth of image. IME, the maximum toe in past your listening position would be similar to the angle if your speaker were pointed straight ahead, ie. you speakers manufacturer recommends pointing you speakers straight ahead, using a equilateral triangulated set up your toe in could be as much as 22.5 degrees. FWIW, works well for me in a 19.5x13.5x9 ft room. |
My Magnepan 20.7 are toed in ’ahead’ of my listening position. With tweeters ’in’. The are only 18" closest edge, away from side walls. The outer edge of speaker is 58 1/2 inches forward of back wall, the inner edge is only 42 inches from back wall. Magnepan suggests the tweeter SHOULD be farther from the person than the bass panel. This arrangement meets that suggestion by maybe an inch or two.This is close to the same position I had my 3.6 Magnepan at (the 3.6 I added a 5" full height wing off the woofer side, that made them exactly the same width as my new 20.7s) When I got my Marantz SA-10 SACD i was able to dial in the exact position with female vocals to lock in the image. (It did move them slightly) Now I wrote down the exact distances so I can move them to clean, and get them back, EXACT! |
Just reading this thread all the way through, it is apparent how different the speakers, rooms and listening preferences are among A'gon members. This thread also shines a light on how differently we listen to our systems. My system is in a dedicated room, optimized for one listener. Some of you have quite different goals in mind and hence, what to me, seem like extreme set-ups to achieve that goal. Live and let live! |
I've always preferred the sound of a speaker closer to straight ahead, rather than toed in (or with very slight toe-in). I generally find this produces a smoother, more filled out sound, more dimensional soundstage, etc. With decent off axis performance, image focus can be good as well. One effect of toe-in I've never liked is how it tends to squeeze the sound too small. I did listen to a set up not too long ago (Magic A3) with the severe toe in some are recommending - crossed well in front of the listener. It "worked" but I frankly didn't like it quite as much as speakers facing closer to straight ahead. All to personal taste, of course. |
twoleftears I agree, and it is important to have audiogon to share different experiences |
I've always toed my speakers in. By doing so at such an angle moves the sound stage up front and center creating a sweet spot in front of the listener, like in a true live setting. A pro audio guy recommended it to me as an enhancement to the microphone configuration we were using for live audience recording. I've done it with JBL's and ATC's. I doubt it would work with electrostatics though. Rollin |
Another factor to consider is the space between the speakers. In general, the farther apart the are, the more toe in may be needed. Hard to imagine, for instance, that speakers 12 feet apart sound their best with no toe in. Each of us has their own preference for sound. Some may prefer to be totally in the speakers direct sound field, others prefer the sound of their room's reflections. All good ideas here to experiment with. |
The best test in your own room with your own system is your own ears. Although I find that bromide quite irritating, it's true. But there are tools to help one calibrate. My speakers sound best with no toe in at all, according to the manufacturer, but my room is not a Rorschach pattern. That is to say there is no right/left symmetry. Nor is my hearing equal in both ears. The best tool I've found is the Isotek set up CD. http://fatwyre.com/isotek-ultimate-system-setup-cd https://www.musicdirect.com/accessories/IsoTek---Ultimate-System-Set-Up-Disc-CD After using the CD, My soundstage is wider, higher, deeper and more precise. It took a few hours, but I wound up with my speakers CLOSER to the front wall and toed-in very slightly and my listening chair moved closer. The first time I used it, the CD led me to have my Left speaker toed OUT slightly and the Right toed in severely. It sounded a lot better than before; but it didn't sit well with me so I used the CD to help me arrange furniture and then the speakers again. Now it sounds even better. I re-use the CD every time things change in the room. |
Speaking of distance between speakers, it’s a common misconception that wider apart is generally better. As fate would have it most speakers should actually be placed closer together than they are. Check it out. Once you overlook the closer together position you will never find the optimum position, which depends on many factors. Do the math. |
Obviously depends on the size of the speakers and room. I think there is a critical distance, for any pair of these components that cannot be shorten. Then you may widen it as long as you feel that the sound remains unified. Once you hear that it becomes dispelled, you know the correct range. As to the toe in, all the speakers I have seen, sound better without any toe in. The sound gets mixed and undefined with a more or less notable toe-in. All three pair of Thiel speaker I have (nothing to say about the sub), sound equally good from any point, whether you are in the ideal triangle position, or at an edge. I even sometimes enjoy hearing the music from the back of the speakers. I think a pair of descent speakers should posses similar properties. |
Suppose we have hotel room + no room treament + extreme (45 degrees) toe-in. Recipe for disaster, especially when it comes to imaging and soundstaging, right? Here are some online comments about such rooms. From RMAF 2013: “Just amazing. This feels like a real performance. I haven’t heard such a focused soundstage at this show period [written late on the last day of the show]. Absolutely phenomenal. Easily a contender for best in show.” “This room had the most locked in-soundstage and imaging I have ever heard bar none with dynamics to match. The sweetspot is just an incredible experience and really musical top to bottom. And, amazingly, they did it with zero room treatments." “Listening to these guys in wildly suboptimal positioning was exhilarating. The sound stage was huge, I mean really wide, with good detail and killer dynamics.” From Newport Beach 2014: "...musical, with a warm, full sound; focused images in spite of abundant room sound; and a remarkable dynamic ease." “The way the speakers threw images way high, as well as their amazing three-dimensionality, was quite impressive. “ From Axpona 2016: “With the right audio gear [this recording] successfully renders the essence of (IMO) one of the greatest 3 or 4 concert halls on earth, the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam. I’ve heard music there, and there’s truly a sense of sound being present in the air around you. The multichannel rendering gets this aspect right; so did the [speakers toed-in 45 degrees], nearly to the same degree, despite the presence of only two channels... what I heard was the unique acoustic signature of the Concertgebouw.” From RMAF 2018: “Best Sound Cost No Object AND Best Value in Show. A beautiful, rich, better than life tonality combined with incredible speed, transparency, soundstaging and precision. Along with best-in-class room-integration.” So, why didn’t these overly-toed-in speakers totally suck (especially at soundstaging) in untreated hotel rooms? The answer is very simple: They were designed to be used that way, and thus they reaped the benefits @erik_squires describes above without any appreciable downside. Incidentally the reviewer who said "This room had the most locked in-soundstage and imaging I have ever heard bar none" has been described as an "imaging and detail freak", and the one who said "Best Sound Cost No Object AND Best Value in Show" claims to be "a tonality freak." So the set-ups weren’t making significant trade-offs between different attributes. Duke |
@rvpiano wrote: "I was just at the New York Hifi show, and perhaps because of the size of the rooms, all speakers were toed in, most severely. The result was very little precise imaging. Everything tended to come from one central spot between the speakers." And, "All I can say is, that [what Duke posted about] wasn’t my experience at this show." And I don’t doubt you one bit! I have no problem accepting that "very little precise imaging" is commonly the result in hotel rooms at audio shows, regardless of how much toe-in is or is not used. But suppose somebody out there fairly consistently gets significantly different results in crappy little hotel rooms at audio shows, without using acoustic treatment. Maybe there are important principles which are either unknown to, or ignored by, "the herd". Giving credit where it’s due, just about everything I know on this subject came from Earl Geddes. And in the midst of "the herd" is not where you will find him. Duke |
With my little Maggie 1.7s, I find my best sweet spot and out of the sweet spot listening is with them very slightly toed in (about 5 deg.) 5 ft. apart (about 6.5' from center to center) 42" from front wall, with the tweeter ribbons to the outside. The stage is large and deep and the image remains detailed, tight and well focused - whether sitting or standing in the sweet spot or right or left of the sweet spot. My room is 14'W x 23'L x 10'H, open to the dinning room on the left another 8' x 14'. Those who feel their Maggies do not image well out of the sweet spot, might try this. It may not work for everyone, in every room, but certainly works very well for me....Jim |
Unless your room is exactly like mine, with speakers exactly like mine, and you have managed to obtain my specific taste regarding the sound from my carefully thought out speaker placement, any suggestions from me are useless...mostly...but a good place to start is to put the speakers in front of you and listen to them...get a rug...buy furniture...don't live in an unfurnished shipping container...get a furnished one. |